Replies

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 30, 2004 07:12am | #1

   With the end grain up, it wouldn't have as much strength in bending. Imagine breaking a 3/4" slice off the end of a 1x12, as opposed to a 3/4" slice off the edge of a 1x12. This might not matter if you never put anything heavy on it, or do any serious pounding on it. If you do, you'd have to add some kind of apron structure to support it, or make it very thick. There's a reason that butcher blocks are 16 to 24 inches thick.

   Now if your offcut were long enough to glue together end to end with scarf joints, you could make a top very nearly as strong as solid wood and with a fascinating pattern.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/30/2004 12:40:41 AM ET by Uncle Dunc

1. 
   joinerswork | Jan 30, 2004 04:48pm | #2

   Unc,

   No need to scarf the ends, just butt them together and stagger the next row bricklaying fashion so the ends dont line up. If the top is 2"+ thick there'll be enough strength in the glue lines to overcome the weakness in the butt joints. A co-worker of mine did just that with a bunch of 3/4"walnut  offcuts,ended up with a top 2 1/2 thick. Beautiful, and after 20 some years it's just getting prettier.

   Cheers,

   Ray

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 30, 2004 05:04pm | #3

   Yeah, that would work. Or maybe I should say you'd have to screw up the alignment real bad for it not to work. But it just doesn't feel right to me. :o)

   My current plan is to build an 8" thick top with plywood scrap. I'm shooting for a total weight somewhere over 500 pounds. I'm really tired of benches that move when I push on them a little.

   Edited 1/30/2004 9:05:43 AM ET by Uncle Dunc

1. 
   MarkRoderick | Jan 30, 2004 07:56pm | #5

   I built that Bob's Bench you often see mentioned, out of 2x material. The top is 2x4s on edge, so its beginning thickness was 2x3 1/2 and after planing it is more like 2x3 1/8. The base is also 2x material - legs of double 2x4s and stretchers of 2x8 frong and back. This bench is heavy enough so that I don't even have the top attached to the base and I still get no movement whatsoever no matter how hard I plane, and that's before I add the drawers and cabinets I plan to add. So you don't really need as much thickness as you're talking about.

2. 
   joinerswork | Jan 30, 2004 08:19pm | #6

   Unc, don't count on it not moving; my bench top is 6" thick red oak, 8' long, 18" wide, 6x6" legs, I was thinking the same thing, but I still had to fasten it to the wall, the rhythmic forces set up by hand planing caused it to walk, even tho it took 4 GOOD men to pick it up and put it back.

   Ray

2. 
   MitchRoberson | Jan 31, 2004 12:31am | #8

   Hi all,

   I'm thinking of doing this concept with off cuts of maple -- butting the pieces against each other, staggering them and gluing them together.  Do you really think that butting the pieces will be adequate?  I was thinking of putting spines between each "row".  I was also thinking of butting them at a slight angle and then cutting them flush once they've been glued up.

   What do you think of those ideas?

   Thanks,

   Mitch

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 31, 2004 04:23am | #9

   >> Do you really think that butting the pieces will be adequate?

   Well, having already said I'm leery of that approach, :o) it depends a lot on how long the pieces are, or how far apart the butt joints in two adjacent rows will be. If they're a foot apart, no problem. If they're an inch apart, sounds bad. My intuition isn't giving me much clue about where the actual limit is.

   >> I was thinking of putting spines between each "row".

   I don't think splines would help much, and they would make it much more complicated. What's your time worth? For the time you'd spend cutting splines and slots, you could buy some longer lumber.

   >> I was also thinking of butting them at a slight angle and then cutting them flush

   >> once they've been glued up.

   I'm having trouble visualizing this. Are you talking about a real blunt scarf joint?

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Feb 01, 2004 12:16am | #10

   Uncle Dunc,

   I came in late on this one - perhaps the easiest solution here is to dowel them with two off 1/2" dowels, going about 1.5" deep into each piece of timber.

   (dowel hole rule of thumb is depth of hole is 3x diameter, giving dowel length 6 x d)

   Cheers,

   eddie

   edit:  posted to wrong person too - aj:  bits of scrap 1.5" long are exactly that - but I'd use leftovers 12" long or so as you described - it'll hold together no problems, as the main glue joints are face grain to face grain

   second edit:  I'd glue with face grain up and end grain hidden - same as a standard workbench - butcher's blocks are notoriously difficult to get right and then keep flat - in a butcher's shop, it doesn't matter if they're a bit out of square/level.

   Edited 1/31/2004 4:58:42 PM ET by eddie (aust)

2. 
   RANGERP75R | Jan 30, 2004 06:57pm | #4

   aj

      Agree with Uncle Dunc and joiner on end to end. It will work if you make it thick enough. I have been fooling with projects of scrap for awhile. Locally known as the "junk-man".

      A top made last summer of 6" to 8" shorts finger-jointed shorts and encased in solid maple. Been through almost 3 seasons and only got about 1/16 movement. I have seen Ultima's do that for $2000. ha.. ha...

     A note: What do you have to lose other than time? What you have to gain if all goes well is experience with scrap that not many tackle and possibly a great work-bench for $Dollar$ store prices.

     Center support would aid as joiner mentioned...

   sarge..jt

   Good Luck

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   
3. 
   HowardAcheson | Jan 30, 2004 09:38pm | #7

   Here is some info you may find helpful. It applies to building a butcher block but that is essentually what you are doing.

   There is a little engineering that needs to be considered when building an end grain butcher block. First, choose wood where the growth rings (viewed from the end) run as close to 90 degrees or parallel to one edge. Remember, the expansion/contraction is about double along the annular rings verses perpendicular to the rings. You've got to keep the grain running in the same direction as you glue up your strips. In other words, don't glue a flatsawn edge to a quartersawn edge.

   Next, the way butcher blocks are made is to glue up strips of wood like you were making a laminated type cutting board. These laminated panels are then run through a planer to flatten them and bring them to equal thickness. Then the panel is crosscut into strips of blocks equal to the thickness that you want the butcher block to be. These block strips are then glued together again keeping the grain running in the same directions.

   Not paying attention to the grain orientation will lead to the block cracking and/or joints being pulled apart.

   A type II adhesive will work just fine however, you need to be sure you do everything right to get good adhesion. Your glue faces should be flat and freshly cut. It they were cut more than a few days earlier, freshen them up with about three swipes with 320 sandpaper and block to keep the faces flat.

   Generally, threaded rod is not used as maple has quite a bit of movement when it's moisture content changes. Threaded rod would restrict this movement and either deform the block or pull the nut/washers into the wood when it expanded leaving the rod performing no function when the wood later shrinks. Proper gluing will keep the block together.

   Finally, it always much cheaper, and a lot less aggrevating to purchase a butcher block than to make one. The firms that specialize in end grain butcher blocks have speciaiized equipment to apply the necessary clamping force, plane the initial boards exactly correctly, plane the first glue up and then clamps to make the final block.