Hi,
Sorry to start off with such a blast but I purchased a set of Marples chisels, the kind with the clear yellow and red plastic handles. All the steel they use is the same despite hadles as I understand it.I spent a good 45minutes on each one flattening the back to mirror finish and honing the bevel. Being a little meticulus I honed and polished the entire bevel (to 25 degrees) to about 800 grit ( I used a sandpaper system and the Veritas Sharpening Jig) then added a micro bevel of an additional 2-3 degrees. I had them razor sharp easily shaving the hair on my arm. I stored them away and finally took one out gave a quick glance to make sure it was sharp and used it to pop some square white oak dowlels I had used to register a glue up. These were just set in snug about 1 inch max. Anyway on looking at the edge ofter pulling 3 of these it’s completely destroyed!! I mean I used the heel of my hand and a very slight upward pressure to pop these out.
Somethings going on. I sure my sharpening was good and sound and barely had any pressure applied. I understand that chisels are not made for prying but shearing but c’mon. The pressure was less than it takes to put the protector on the end.What have they done to their steel??!! I used to abuse Marples chisels much more in the past, having them go dull but not fold up like this. I’d be mad/dissapointed if it wasn’t so ridiculus. I may get to that point if I ponder the 5-7 hours it took me to get these so perfect.
There was a FWW article #139 that had the Marples coming way back of the pack. I didn’t beleive it then having had better luck in the past with the Blue Chip Marples. Some of you commented on how you’ve found them great as I did in the past. Another freind said the same thing I am (” What’s happened? They won’t hold an edge”)
Time to try something else…I guess.
See ya,
N
Replies
What happened to the edge? If it chipped, then there's a good chance the steel will be more to your liking after a little use. If it folded back then you may have to heat treat them again and re-handle them.
I just had the good fortune to work with one of the Lie-Nielsen prototype chisels. I used it all day in a somewhat abusive situation and it did great. I've always reserved an old Merril & Wilder chisel, which holds the most indestructible edge of any chisel I've ever found, for the same process and the Lie-Nielsen stood up better. I was even able to pare end grain after a day of hard use.
The Lie-Nielsen chisels are based on Stanley's old 750 socket chisels which were proportioned for great balance and control. Thomas Lie-Nielsen says they'll be ready for shipment after the first of the year. I expected that chisel to be pretty good but it exceeded my expectations. I'll have a set of them as soon as I can ear-mark the money.
Hi,
The edge basically "folded over" on a micro scale. It's rather ruffled almost serrated. All the metal is still there no chipping. I don't think I'll be heat treating and re handling them, thank you.
You just had to bring up Lie-Nilesen chisels!! I've been expecting those by now. I wonder what those will retail for. The very good Japanese chisels are going for about $35-$40 for a 1/2 inch.
I used to really like Sorby chisels but see they didn't fair much better in the test I referred to. I didn't believe it at first but I am coming around to!!
Thanks!
N
You are over doing it.... Step back and think about what that chisel is supposed to do. Having done that, rethink your sharpening technique and your objective. If you want razor sharp tools buy a utility knife. If you want perfect chisels then buy quality steel and sharpen it to a point where it serves its intended pupose.
The second that you sharpen chisels to the point that the are razor sharp you have ruined them for the pupose that they are intended. One whack at a piece of wood and they are now dull.
My suggestion is that you change to a steeper angle... Nothing more than 25 Deg and sharpen from there. Don't try for a razor edge because it is so weak that it will bend/fold over. If you think you really need that type of edge then go to your kitchen and sharpen the knives.
So...
Your suggesting I basically "kill the edge" I buy this to a point but as I said in the past I have had chisles that will hold this edge and remember I said I was basically doing nothing with it, a slight tap with the heel of my hand and several inch pounds to lift a dowel. I'm not saying the chisel went dull but rolled over with hand pressure. I just put the chisel in question under a 10x magnification and mearured it with dial calipers.The deepest ripple is .007 inches. The fact that very minimal pressure resulted in this type of rolling over speaks more of inferior steel than improper use or edge. This must have happened from the initial push to cut into the dowel. On a 90 degree angle of a piece of white oak. This was a straight on cut with the back resting on the surface so not to gouge the work.
I'm dealing with a 27 degree edage as of now. I wouldn't go much steeper than that. Also where would you stop? I sharpen to 27 degrees, and hone it to a mirror finish. The cutting egde is either honed or not.
I've used chisels of all kinds, save Japanese, for all types of work. From fine joinery to rough carpentry. I've never gotten this response from an edge. Your argument that I have over done it may have some merit but I can't tell you how long I've always sharpened chisels this way with minimal problems-zero problems. I have also done the same with some Sorby registered mortise chisels and cut mortises with a large mallet and a heavy hand. I also honed them to 27 degrees and after chopping several mortises in rock maple are still sharp-not razor but the edge has dropped of gracefully.
I'm convinced that Marples has lost something in their steel-No question.
N
Or you may just have a bad one, notrix. Shi-t happens, and manufacturers screw up from time to time-- nothing new with that. Take it back and exchange it, but you might stop getting all knicker twisted about sharpening angles. I've never known what angle I sharpen a chisel, plane, etc., at, and who really cares anyway, but they are all certainly sharp.
Jings, I buy slide film, 200 ASA, and I swear it has performed, after exposure, as 64 ASA. I just have to buy more film and do the whole darned process again, ha, ha. It's a pisser, but that's life. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Of course that's crossed my mind, but doubt anyone will replace it. And as noted a luthier freind who uses chisels everyday says the same thing.
Look for this set on Ebay I'm tellin' ya!
N
Ha, ha. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Actually, what I am trying to say is that in this case try backing off a bit. Instead of 27 try 30 or 35. It may be what you need to keep enough material out there and stop it form rolling over on you.
My reference to the kitchen knives was so that you might get an idea of the concept. When I sharpen my knives I take them to a 20 knowing that I only need them to last for the meal after which I will hit them with the rod and roll the edge back to straight.
Over sharpening on too long of an angle will either cause the metal to chip and crack or roll. Junk steal will chip and crack because it is too brittle (over hardened). Good steall will roll because it has been anealed properly.
So you see, increase the agle and shorten the sharpened edge and your problem should go away. You'll still be able to shave with it.
30-35 seems steep. I may try it though.
It gets down to the fact that while I love talking and tuning tools I don't like wasting my time either. It takes about 30-45 minutes to go from new in box edge to where I like it. Now times 5 or 6 and that's basically a day. Not bad if it'll hold. But to have to start over the fun will definatly be gone..
Thanks for your thoughts,
N
It seems unusual that it took 45 minutes to flatten the back of the chisel. Right there I would suspect some kind of manufacturing problem. I bought a set of Marples about 7-8 years ago and it only took 5 minutes to flatten the largest chisel (the 1 inch). The smaller ones took less time.
How do your chisels perform on more ordinary chiseling tasks?
I also recently read that Marples is going to change the way they make chisels, using some "new" technology. I probably expect that chisel quality will suffer even more.
Flattening the back took about 5-10 minutes depending on the chisel. None of the 6 I got had square edges and it took the rest of the time to square them up and hone an edge. I don't hollow grind my chisels and put a 320-600 ( had to start with 80 then 150-220) grit initial bevel of 25 degrees then a micro bevel of 27 degrees at 1500.
On ordinary tasks I don't know. I haven't had anything come up to use these edges grabbing my Sorby registered mortise chisels more often than not. I like the feel of the bigger heavier chisels for what I was doing.
"Ordinary" sort of begs a question. In years past I wasn't into specialty chisels, coming from a rough and finish carpenter background with quite a few years of commercial shop work mixed in. I always had some Marples or Stanleys and just grabbed and slammed. I never saw a chisel roll like this. Some dulled faster than others. I still have a 3/4" Stanley that has dulled wonderfully, still basically square and straight along it's edge . This is the one I always have about for cleaning glue and other tasks a razor edge would be un desirable.
I ordered 2 Japanese Matsumura White Steel chisels last night. Let the hardwood-soft wood debate begin!!
N
Edited 12/24/2002 9:57:47 AM ET by notrix
Hi,
Sorry you had such a bad experience. I think you've either got a bad chisel or used it incorrectly....more like a prybar than a chisel...no offense intended.
I've had a set of Blue Chip Marples and love them. Yeah, there may be better..but for the money, they're very good. Mind you, I'm not a "cheap tool" afficionado...look at my Leigh Jig, PC 7518, L-N block planes....I just like quality tools..and I'm convinced that Marples are okay!
I apprenticed with an English Master Jointmaker that swore by his Marples chisels....of course his were quite a bit shorter from all the sharpening he'd done over the years.
Good luck!
lp
I wonder if they really are made from the same steel. I have a set of blue handled Marples and have absolutely no complaints. They take and hold a nice edge - just the balance I want. Not too hard so that one can't hone a sharp edge, yet not too soft that the edge doesn't hold up.
Jeff
I doubt that most woodworkers will appreciate the difference between the tool steels used in making Western style chisels as noted in the FWW book on Bench Tools. I agree with trying to sharpen the chisel at a somewhat less acute angle to minimize chipping or folding the edge. I also think you will find out much more by experimenting with a variety of sharpening techniques and then using the tool on a variety of woods as opposed to trying to find the perfect tool steel chisel. At least this is what I have concluded after studying the subject for the last several years. I own both Stanley and Marples chisels which do an adequate job for me.
I've a pack-rat attitude when it comes to old tools and have collected quite a few Marples chisels over the years. I also have 1½" and 2" sizes about 3 or 4 years old and I can't see any difference in the quality of the steel between those and ones that are 70+ years old.The quality of the modern steel can be variable -- I have a set of Stanley chisels and the ¼" one just won't hold an edge whereas the rest of the set is fine.IanDG
The denizens of the Oldtools list don't have much good to say about Marples. I have two sets of chisels, well one set and one I'm working on. The complete set is Freud, and I have to say they're not bad at all. I'm not particular about the angle of the bevel and they still hold an edge very well, whether for paring or whacking. My favorite chisels, though, are Erik Anton Berg - Shark brand. Those things hold an edge come hell or high water.
Bruce
I have a set with the blue handles and they seem fine to me. I've never really stopped to notice how long a particular chisel "holds its edge" since it's damned easy to walk over and dress them up at the sharpening bench. Gives me a break from paring or whatever else I'm doing. Might stop and get a sip of coffee, too.
I use sandpaper-on-glass and the same Veritas jig you mentioned.
I have had the blue handled set for 8 years now and will probably get another 8 years out of them at the least. I have beat them, dropped them, used them for the wrong purpose, and blued the blades on occasion sharpening them. Still they are good for what they are. Maybe your right about them slipping a cheaper brand of steel in there but keep in mind your wasting your time sharpening any Marples chisels to the point where you did.
You wanted to show-off with them didn't you? Get yourself a laminated steel chisel for your fine work and leave the Marples for the heavy work. It only takes 30 seconds to sharpen them on a rubber wheel end on your small wide belt sander then another 30 seconds to stone them nicely. (Hope you didn't throw or give your blue handled ones away-)
Well it seems obvious that while I'm accused of showing off, not knowing how to use or sharpen a chisel, that the concenses is Marples chisels are not to be honed to a razors edge or said edge used in hard woods. It also appears that 27 degrees is too low a profile and 30-35 more apt to hold an edge. It may also be the steel on this one set. Possibly. But as interesting as it is to see someone do a scientific study, put a stylus on the edge, I'm still going to sharpen the chisels as I always have and try them a couple of times in the wood I'm using at the time. If another rolls over .007" with hand pressure it will be rejected. A .007" roll over = .007" chip eventually. My original complaint was the basic failure of an edge not it going dull.
I hope you all noticed that I put the EXACT same edge on the Sorby mortising chisels and slam these into the EXACT same wood with a large mallet and these DO NOT roll over. While these are burlier chisels but the leading edge is the same. Of course these get dull but the entire edge is still intact. These clean up and hone well in minutes. To me this justifies my sharpening technique and bevel choice. While mortising and paring are 2 different operations I honed these to the same bevel as the Marples because I only have about 6 different sizes of chisles and it's nice to make these "do alls". As my collection grows I will certainly speciallise the edge of each set for particular functions.
If you are thinking about obtaining Marples chisels I hope you have better luck than I and those around here where the general thoughts are these do not hold and edge very well.
Junk? Well maybe not. Limited? I'd say that's a closer to the truth.
Thanks for the input y'all.
N
I hone up to 1500 grit paper, the resulting edges are very sharp, and the edges do not roll over during paring on hard Maple or tropicals.
You sound like you know what you're doing, so I'll take your word for it. You could try another set of Marples or simply move up to a set of Sorby bevel-edged chisels. I would imagine that your supplier would be willing to take your set back and let you have another. If your time is worth more than the hassle (and I assume it is), go with Sorby or another premium chisel.
Yes you may be right.
There is the balance between hardness and toughness that all makers work on.
If it is too hard (brittle) then you can put the razor's edge on it and it will stay forever til you hit it the wrong way and the chip flies in your eye for a lawsuit. I think that may be the element that makes the manufacturers lighten up on the heat treatment.
If it is tougher (more flexible/malleable) then the edge is suspect. Although litigiously less controversial.
Frankly the chisels I own (20 or 30) I don't give a rippin - about. I never wear out an edge. Generally a well meaning friend or I, in moving things, knock them to the ground and kill the edge. I used to get upset, now I get more chisels and keep the mess in rotation trading in the blunt survivors for a sharper one.
I've stooped to buying from the ace hardware, Cherry, Crown, Sears Craftsman, Stanley, etc. I'm motivated by the price of the set at the time. Cabinet chisels just get too much abuse to be wound too tight over. I've even got a set of the maple handle Marples which hold up pretty well.
Yes for specialty chisels I have some finer brands (offset, skewed, & Morticing types) in the big picture (cutting time) they don't last much longer than the crappy ones.
The brightest part of this practice is that I don't feel anxious with my boys or a friend using the tools.
Lathe tools. That is a different story as those don't last a lick. There I stick with the Sorby brand. Although i have a buddy who has a hand me down Sears (not even Craftsman) roughing gouge that is a POS in everything but performance.
Go figure.
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