I am thinking of building a workbench, using 1 1/2″ MDF with a thick veneer maple top. I am thinking of custom cutting 1/4″ – 3/8″ thick veneer maple to save money yet provide a hardwood surface and avoid the movement problems of thicker wood. Is this a good idea or will 3/8″ veneer be unworkable and result in movement problems later on?
– Lyptus
Replies
You're asking for trouble on many fronts. First of all, workbenches take quite a beating from all the chopping and wacking. A thin veneer is going to crack or split from this hard use. Once you get thick enough to avoid these issues, you are no longer using a veneer than can be stabilized by glueing it to mdf. It's gonna move.
Your best bet is to use solid wood. If you don't want to, or can't afford it, many benches are made with mdf covered with 1/4" hardboard. It might not be the look you're after, but it'll hold up, with no movement issues.
If you want a wood bench, spend the money, and make it once.
Jeff
I built a bench several years ago using 3 layers of 3/4 inch plywood and it has held up very well over the years. There is no wood movement to speak of and if the top becomes damaged over the course of several projects just add another layer of plywood. I have a Record vise attached to it and 2 rows of holes for the bench dogs.
Greg
Lyptus,
No disrespect to the other posters, especially Jeff who has great advice, but I have to disagree. I built a workbench top exactly as you are describing about 10 years ago, with nary a problem as far as the seams opening up. See post # 33368.9 for a description with a picture.
Lee
P.S. Try this:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=33368.9
Edited 1/8/2007 12:49 pm by mapleman
My experience and advice is an average of what has already been voiced. Using a "thick veneer' is OK but keep it thinner than you plan. I'd limit it to 3/32" to be safe. A lot of people veneer up to 1/8", but results may vary according to your environment. I've had two thick veneer failures over mdf. So, I recommend a thin layer of plywood over the mdf and glue the face veneer to that. And remember to do the same to the bottom of the bench.
All this will save you wood expence but it's rather labor intensive. On my bench I've got a layer of 1/8" hardboard as the working surface. It's replaceable.
It seems my advice is not clear, or that I misunderstood the OP's question. Also, it might help to know how the bench is going to be used. No indication was made as to thickness of this 'veneer', so I assumed that he was speaking of something in the neighborhood of 1/4" to 3/8" thick, glued to mdf. Sorry, sportsfans, but this dog won't hunt. The strength of movement will either break the glue bond, or crack the wood, just like it would in any other piece of furniture where movement of wood is not considered in the joinery.
Now, if that veneer is 1/8" thick, or close, the first time a chisel is wacked on it, well, there goes the veneer.
Absolutely nothing is wrong with using plywood or mdf built up and glued together to make a solid work surface. But, there is no need to go through the trouble of veneering both sides of this surface when it won't hold up to woodworking atrocities usually wreaked upon a workbench (at least in my shop.) Now, if you're gonna serve wine and cheese on it, then veneer away. Otherwise, a more durable surface, such as hardboard, would be more appropriate in terms of having a top surface that a wood chisel or mallet isn't going to blow through the first time they decide to introduce themselves to each other. Also, the hardboard can be changed easily once it no longer is holding up to the task.
It sounded to me that the veneer was being used for the purpose of making the bench look like a solid wood bench, without actually being one. It doesn't need to be solid wood, but veneering it would be a complete waste of time.
For clarification purposes and regards,
Jeff
I agree Jeff, the normal thickness of veneers is 1/16th of a inch or thinner. Anything over 1/8" and there is risk of the veneer splitting. A thin veneer will not hold up on something like a workbench which is subject to bangs and dings.Howie.........
It sounded to me that the veneer was being used for the purpose of making the bench look like a solid wood bench, without actually being one. It doesn't need to be solid wood, but veneering it would be a complete waste of time.
I guess I'm of the school of thought that says "Don't knock it till you try it". If you haven't actually tried it, how can you tell someone it won't work? Just checked so as not to put my foot in my mouth (which has been known to happen on occasion ;) and I can't find 1 spot where there is so much as 1/64th gap between any of the 5/16th thick pieces on my bench. I'm not trying to create an argument, just prove that I know (firsthand) this will work. It looks like a solid maple top, wears like a solid top, and cost under $100 to build in 1995.
Respectfully,
Lee
View Image
Curiosity: Did you "veneer" the bottom also?
Hi Sap,
No veneer on the bottom. Just maple strips glued one at a a time onto a double thickness of 3/4 birch plywood.
I realize this approach may not work for everyone, I live in southern Mississippi where the humidity is high year round. My shop is un-heated and un-air conditioned, so this design may not work for someone in Arizona, or in a heated/cooled shop enviornment. Also, as I mentioned in the post I provided a link to, I used a flatsawn 8/4 board to rip the strips from, which yielded rift to quartersawn strips (mostly quartersawn). Maybe that's why it works? I realize that in all probability it shouldn't work, but it did in my case. And I was someone who didn't have the money to spend on a solid maple top, but wanted something nicer than a plywood bench.
Lee
What glue did you use? There probably was some movement during the glue up. The QS construction helps. But if relative humidity is stable, year-round, there will be no wood movement. The problems is change in ambient conditions.
In Hawaii the humidity was 55-65% almost constantly in my shop (no heat, no airconditioning). There were a few days of slightly lower and several days of 75-80 (ghastly). And that was it. I don't think we ever worried about wood movement. But I shipped furniture to the mainland and had to observe every trick in construction. Never had a piece self-destruct though.
Here in Arizona, it can be bone dry for most of the year, then in the summer "Monsoon" months very humid. Wood moves a lot in this environment.
Rich
Rich,
If my memory serves me correctly, I think it was just regular elmers carpenters wood glue. I used that pretty regularly until a few years into woodworking I started experimenting with different specialty glues.
Lee
Lee,
I wonder how much the elasticity of that glue has prevented any problem regarding relative movement of the veneer and the substarte. That and the rather constant relative humidity.
Rich
Rich,
I'm not sure about the glue. It seems to me to dry very hard, unlike titebond III, which tends to have a little elasticity.
I looked up the radial/tangential shrinkage values on wood central. They are 4.0/8.2 % (radial/tangential) for red maple and 4.8/9.9 for sugar maple. But that is from green to oven-dry. How do you measure what the probable movement will be after something is built taking into consideration the lumber is already kiln-dried? There must be a formula out there somewhere. I'm just curious to know if the expansion/contraction is significant on a 24" top using quartersawn material.
Lee
Edited 1/9/2007 2:51 pm by mapleman
I would expect 1/8 to 1/4" movement per foot, tangential for a relative humidity change of 10% to 60% (winter indoor dry to summer open window conditions). The radial (QS) movement would be about 1/2 of that. I'm going from memory. There are lots of calculators on the net. Maybe someone can chime in with a link.
Rich
MM-I did almost the exact same thing as you. I glued together 3 layers of 3/4 mdf and on top of that I glued down-with construction adhesive-1/2" maple strips. I did this 9 years ago, and I have had no problems. It's not a veneer. I haven't checked it in a while but it was dead flat. I banded the edges with 3/4" maple.
I was poor at the time and I wanted something nicer than plywood, and something heavy enough to take a beating and not move all over the place while planing. This was my solution. I have been pretty happy with it. It's a little hacked up now and needs to be refinished.
My experience in New England is that this can be done with satisfactory results. As always others' mileage may vary.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
JJV,
I suggested to mapleman that the reason his workbench top remained intact was that the white PVA glue he used was elastic enough to allow for movement between the thick hardwood veneer and the more stable substrate.
I believe construction adhesive is even more elastic than PVA glue and has also allowed your table construction to remain intact.
Your experience is an interesting alternative to "balanced veneer construction" and traditional solid hardwood construction of workbenches.
Rich
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that I wasn't smart enough to come up with that solution on my own and I had to have read it somewhere. Even got the idea for the clamping cauls which I had never heard of. Maybe Woodsmith or Shopnotes? I'll have to take a look.
We used a LOT of construction adhesive in the production shop I worked in for a spell before I built that bench. My experience with Liquid Nails there and reading the article prior to that time convinced me that it could work well.
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
mapleman,I built a bench when I lived on the coast of the Florida panhandle then moved it to north Alabama. The shrinkage was unbelieveble even though it is still fairly humid here. If you ever have to leave MS, you might want to sell your bench or you might have to suffer seeing it destroy itself. I got really woried about mine which was solid wood. It survived, but it did not look nearly as neat. I'm sure it is fine as long as it stays in the present environment.Cadiddlehopper
Over the years, as I have moved and expanded my woodworking activities, I've had several
"work surfaces/tables/benchs". My scrummiest was a plywood top over plyscore. (sp?)
Someone gave me a sheet of Rosewood laminate, so I decided to cover the plywood - I then edged the combo with 3/4 x 2" hard maple. 25 years later it is still going stong - I chop motices and dovetails and generally just beat on it. It is an unconventional top but it works, glue cleanup is a snap and it is pretty.
Frosty
Veneer for a benchtop is a bad idea!!!!!! No! No! No!
wd,
Yes, we know! Did you see those pictures on post #9? Horrible, huh?
Lee
Wow, for a "professional" woodworker you sure sound like a little kid crying because someone disagreed with you. I thought this forum was for people to express their opinions and knowledge. You said it won't work. I said it did for me. I didn't say it would work for the OP, and I gave reasons why it may have worked for me when it didn't seem rational. For crying out loud, you are acting like this was a personal attack on you. I didn't "rip the crap" out of anybody, and I never said you were a screw up. And if the OP wants a check for his "about to be mistake" then have him drop me an email and we will talk about it.
Good day sir
Lee
Male bonding.
That was Hysterical! My wife wanted to why I ROFL!Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Lee
Maybe I shouldn't converse here after having a real bad day! (Yesterday!) Some of the things I said to you were out of line, and for that I apologize. My point I was trying to make was that a bench made that way will only stay together in an environment that doesn't have changing MC conditions.
Perhaps we could have a group hug some day. We could let Rich officiate.
With regards,
Jeff
Everyone has a bad day, no need for an apology, Jeff. I developed thick skin a long time ago, it would take a lot more than that to get me riled up. Even when I was a kid, I had a "who cares" attitude. In fact, I happened to find one of my childhood pics that shows this attitude:
P.S.
Let's skip the group hug and you, me and Rich have a half dozen drinks sometime?
Lee
Edited 1/11/2007 8:57 am by mapleman
Whoa. C'mon now. This is a family show! LOL! Rich
Rich,
Yeah, I thought about it as I lay in bed and thought, maybe thet's not such a good idea? So I deleted it. Definitely a good laugh!
Lee
Use "Bostic Best" urethane adhesive. It has enough give to let you do what you want to do. You can buy 3/8" tongue and groove flooring from Lumber Liquidators, I believe. I did a similar thing to what you are suggesting with 5/8" bamboo. It has done just fine for 3+ years, with SC humidity changes.
This is an old thread, so I’m not sure what kind of response I’ll get but here goes. I’m planing a workbench to be somewhat of a showpiece (think Samurai Workbech) but very functional too. I want to use a perforated work surface design a la Festool’s mft or Ron Paulk’s design and so dimensional stability is crucial. However! I don’t want to invest a lot of time dolling the thing up If there’s a high probability of a failed result. I live on the Wasatch front in Utah now having moved from the central coast of California but still keep a place there and may relocate the workbench back there later. I’d really prefer a solid wood appearance and hoped to get away with Lee’s experience of a 3/16 - 5/16” thick top hardwood layer over 1-1/2” of mdf or Baltic birch for extra weight and dimensional stability. Any thinner veneer in my mind would be purely cosmetic and I want a more robust but attractive wood surface. I’m open to any of the lighter colored hardwood species and am willing to go through the process of resawing to achieve quarter/rift-sawn stability. Am I totally out in left field, or is there a design and execution path with a high probability os success? Thanks, Joe
How about using 3/4” bamboo plywood on top of 2x 3/4” mdf sheets? Anyone ever used bamboo ply for an mft?
I have used 1-1/2” thick, 3 ft wide by 6 ft long birch top sold by Menards. I ripped 12 inches off to make 4 legs 1-1/2x by 36” long. I then banded the table with 1-1/2 birch x 3” wide that I mortised to receive the bench legs. I banded the ends the same way and used a floating tenon to on the bench ends and pinned between the rails with dovetails. I had a scrap solid core door I set under the to increase mass. I screwed it to the top with slotted holes to allow the top to move. The bench (minus vises) cost $300 and looks and works great. Someday I will build a Birch plywood cabinet with drawers to fit under the bench.
Hello,
I went the cheap way. 6 pressure-treated pine 4x4s held together with standard yellow glue & 2" dowels all the way through. The sharp edges make for a good fit with minimal sanding for flatness. And because it's pressure-treated it holds up well regardless of the beating it takes and dents and cuts are easily repaired.
I don't worry about movement, which is a plus. My shop's in the basement of a rented home built in '59. So it's frigid in winter and usually floods when it rains enough.. I have to rely on shop heaters and a dehumidifier year around, yet there are no noticeable changes in the top.
Besides, it's a workbench, not a piano. If you can afford it, BallyBlock offers some great hardwood benchtops. Try Woodcraft.com for examples. Their prices range from $170 up.
Best of luck,
Mikaol
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