Is there a certain width that hardwood boards should be for a panel glue-up? I’ve been told a MAXIMUM of 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 inches is about it to ensure no warpage. I find it hard to believe as I have glued well over that in width without a problem. This is 3/4″ ash I’m using and it is for the sides (21″ overall width) and front/rear (19 1/2″ overall width) of a free-standing cabinet-type unit. No raised panel involved.
I don’t believe there will be a problem. Has anyone experienced one with this common type of glue up? Thanks in advance…Tim
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Replies
I hear the same thing repeated all the time, and quite frankly it is pure nonsense, but you've already found that out for yourself, through first hand experience. I always use the widest board I can, and I've never had a problem. I also hear that you should alternate the growth rings, but this is another piece of nonsense, that does nothing for stability, but does limit your choices for matching grain patterns and especially matching the reflectivity. Stability comes from properly cured lumber, thoughtful joinery, and sealing both sides of a board
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I don't think it's so much the width of the individual pieces in the glue up but where the boards were cut from the log. A wide board cut from the center of a log is more likely to belly and that may be something to avoid. Wood does move along with humidity changes. The greater the change, the more movement. Certain species or individual boards may move more than others, too. The important issue is to allow for movement, particularly if the panel is restricted, like a framed panel. I have a 30" white pine table top that moves about 1/2" over the year and has been doing so for 30 years. I have some 8" ash canoe paddles that don't seem to move at all and they get dunked.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Right on Hammer1.
If there is evidence of the log center in the board, it needs to be split and the growth rings alternated (herringbone style). Maybe Rob has had the good fortune not to have used anything but boards that were cut in the right relationship to the center of the log when he did his panel glue up. JL
JL,
I've never seen a furniture grade piece of lumber that was cut from the center of the tree; I think the pith would be a serious defect. I've only seen it in framing lumber.
As far as alternating the growth rings, that does not some how magically stop warping. A board glued up that way now warps in two direction, instead of one. How that is beneficial is beyond me.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
A panel glued up from flat sawn boards with the ring orientation alternating between boards will develop a small ripple with changes in moisture content, but the panel will stay basically flat across its width.
A panel glued up with all of the rings oriented in the same direction will develop a significant cup with changes in moisture content. Because of the cupping, the frame around the panel, or the fasteners used to attach a table top to the stretchers, will have to deal with significantly more stress in resisting the warping of the panel. Any time I've seen a piece of furniture have problems with panel warpage it was in those panels or table tops where the ring orientation was all in the same direction.
Whenever possible, I try to reverse the orientation of the rings when I glue up a panel, to lower the chance that the piece will have problems in especially wet or dry environments. This is only one of several things I do to create a more stable panel but I think it is worth the effort.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Like many things in woodworking, there is no absolute answer to this kind of thing. It becomes a matter of personal preference, considering all the factors involved and one's experience with the different methods available.
A table top glued up with alternating ring orientation will stay "reasonably flat" overall, but there is no way to completely remove the wavyness that results from whatever "cupping" happens to the individual boards. This wavyness may be great or so small as to be inconsequential, but it is there.
A table top glued up from boards with growth rings all oriented the same way will behave exactly like one large board. It will cup. It may cup a lot, it may cup very little. There are many workers, for instance Tage Frid, who recommends (recommended) this construction, because there is no wavyness to the top and the slight cup can be completely controlled with a single screw up through the center point of the stiles or hroizontal spanning members at each end of the top.
Rich
John,
Not to argue with your rationale here. But, period furniture typically used wide boards for panels and tops, and very few have warped significantly. We need to address the question why those that warped did so. My experience with repairing these pieces leads me to believe that many were built with relatively unseasoned lumber, that continued to shrink after the piece was built. Others were subjected to extremes of moisture (standing in cellars, attics, or porches,) not normally encountered in living spaces.
While the technique of ripping wide boards into narrow strips and regluing them with alternating growth ring orientation does tend to mitigate any cupping, the washboard appearance of tops etc when exposed to extreme continued moisture looks "un-natural" to those of us accustomed to period practices; worse, in my eyes, than a single cup. Then too, the "butcher block" effect of all that interrupted grain in a top with many laminations is definately not part of the period aesthetic. I think that's worth any minor risk that may be associated with using wide boards.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Ray,
In modern times when furniture gets shipped all over the world, or in climates, like New England where humidity extremes are a yearly fact of life, making furniture out of wide boards has its risks. These risks can be overcome, to some extent, by the choice of wood species and other elements of the pieces structural design, but outright dismissal of the technique of alternating rings, which some poster did earlier, is what I was responding to.
I have found that careful grain matching at the joints in a panel made with narrower boards can make it very hard to tell that the panel is pieced together. I also try to choose rift or quarter sawn boards, rather than flat sawn, for table tops so the ripple effect is quite minor.
John W.
John,
I hate to disagree with the shop manager of Fine Woodworking, but alternating the growth rings may result in a slightly more stable panel, but I've seen pieces where this was done that suffered in appearance, with respect to reflectivity . See the attached link for an example of what can happen if reflectivity is ignored.
When I glue up a panel, I choose wood that has come through the drying process and remained relatively flat; this shows that the piece was inherently stable, and is unlikely to change shape dramatically with the comparatively minor changes in moisture content present in an interior space. I then take steps to allow for the piece to move, be it elongating screw holes, making a frame and panel etc. The only instance where I'd be even a little concerned, would be large raised panel doors in a piece like a secretary, where even a small amount of movement could ruin the fit. Having said that I would still use full width boards for the field if I could find them. If a glue up were necessary I wouldn't pay any attention to the growth rings or the grain direction; instead I would as noted, choose the stock carefully and make the appearance my foremost concern.
http://americanfederalperiod.com/Reflectivity.htm
Rob Millard
OK then how wide of a panel can you get awayb with when using a single board?
The widest single board I've ever used was a 35" wide piece of mahogany for a table top, but mahogany is typically available in very wide boards, much wider than most other species.
With proper attention to detail, you could make any size panel commonly found in furniture. It is not so much how wide it is, but how you account for the expansion/contraction, and restrain the tendency to warp.
Rob Millard
Rob,
Gluing up narrower boards to make a more stable wide panel definitely has its problems, especially with appearance, as you clearly explained. I also agree that nothing looks better than a single nicely figured wide board in the side of a chest. I was just trying to explain that there is also a good rationale for the technique of using narrower boards and alternating growth rings in some applications.
Each piece that I design and build is almost always a trade off to some degree between the absolute most stable design and one that is also beautiful and works with the wood available for the job. You obviously deal with the same issues and have the experience and knowledge to make good furniture that is both stable and beautiful.
I was just trying to present another viewpoint on the advantages of alternating rings and using narrower boards, so that this was a balanced and more complete discussion of how to make a panel. In the end, choosing either technique will depend on the demands of the piece piece being built and the skill of the maker.
I'm heading home, have a great evening. We'll pick this up again tomorrow if there is anything more to be said, but I'm talked out for now. It's fun debating with you.
John W.
John,
I'm glad ( relieved really) that you weren't upset at my differing opinion, since I am sort of a guest in your house.
Rob Millard
Knots belongs to the men and women that post on it, and everyone is equal.
Working here doesn't come with any privileges, and it certainly doesn't mean that any of my strongly held beliefs are correct or should carry more authority than yours. For a few years I posted anonymously, just to avoid being judged as more correct than other posters, but too many people figured out who I was.
As long as everyone is civil, the more opinions, techniques, and facts presented here the better.
It's been a pleasure sparring with you and I suspect we'll do it again.
John W.
Eewwww!
All this touchy feel goody stuff.
C'mon youze guys, yer s'posed to bark at each other.
Sheeesh!
JohnWW
If you get all nice and kind I simply won't know who to antagonise anymore. You really need to allow a few insults and character affronts in or else I'll feel that I'm in church..
<G>
John, clearly you need to familiarize yourself with Rob's work and with Ray Pine's work.
Suffice to say that they have moved beyond the power tool tuning aspect of the craft.
You might want to do a search in the Gallery and take a look at some of Rob's Seymour and other Federal reproductions.
FW's own Garrett Hack has mentioned in more than one article of the dozens he's written for FW that he glues up panels based on grain and color match with growth rings being a secondary consideration.
Rob, Garrett, and Ray are accomplished professional furnituremakers.
Edited 2/14/2007 7:16 am ET by BossCrunk
Mr. Crunk,
I am familiar with the beautiful work done by the gentlemen you mentioned, I am not familiar with your work though.
I too worked for many years as a professional cabinetmaker and I can still, when pressed, make a damn nice piece of furniture.
For five tears I worked in a shop that had no power tools, it didn't even have electric plugs, so I am not a power tool junky, and my skills as a machinist and at maintaining shop machinery certainly haven't diminished my talents as a cabinetmaker.
With the exception of your posting, this has been a very civil discussion of the pros and cons of various approaches to gluing up wide panels. I think we all learned a lot, and at several points I acknowledged that using wide panels had its appeal and could also be made to work with careful design and construction.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
John,
Heyyyyyyy. Somebody got up on the wrong side of the table saw today!
Awright! Now this thread is getting back to normal. No more touchy feely stuff.
"I worked in a shop that had no power tools, it didn't even have electric plugs"
Huh! I worked in a shop once that didn't even have any plane irons in the planes. We had to stick our fingers down in the plane throats and use our fingernails for the cutting edge. Didn't have no grinding wheels, neither. We just sharpened our fingernails on the rough stone floor. And sometimes we ran out of fingernail to grind. Had to go down to bone.
And we had to plane boards uphill - both ways!
Sure taught me cabinet-making skills, though.
;)
Rich
Look here, Rich, if you continue in that vein some grumpybody is going to say that when he was young they all lived in bottom of septic tank, and had to lick it clean every morning.....(Quote from Monty Python- Blitish comedy).Stop this frivolity at once.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I was going to "escalate" the septic tank licking, but I was laughing too hard.
". . . If we couldn't laugh, then we'd all go insane . . ."
Line from Jimmy Buffet song, "Changes in Attitudes"
Rich
Rich,
You're right, I am a bit grumpy today. I drove through an ice storm only to have my prowess as a cabinetmaker insulted before I drank my first cup of cheap coffee. Feeling better now.
I appreciate your humor.
John W.
As soon as the Singing Dubbie and the Boss showed up things started getting pithy.
Here's an excerpted *partial* list of Ray Pine's clients from his website.
Woodworking prowess, indeed.
Don't know about you, but I've never been asked to build a set of chairs for the Virginia governor's mansion, or for President James Madison's home. I don't think they go thumbing through the Yellow Pages when they need work like that done. I think it takes a national, at minimum regional, reputation. I don't have such a reputation. Do you?
Greensboro (NC) Historical Museum
Reproduction of James Madison's dining chair
Museum of American Frontier Culture
Reproduction, Irish side chairs, Irish beds; furniture conservation
Belle Grove Plantation
Furniture conservation
Glen Burnie Museum
Furniture conservation
James Madison's Montpelier
Reproduction chair on loan
Harrisonburg-Rockingham Historical Society
Furniture conservation
Old Salem in North Carolina
Reproduction accessory items
Smithsonian Institution, MSC, CAL
Taught seminars on inlay reproduction and restoration
UVA, Miller Center for Presidential Studies
Reproductions for office of director and library reading room; furniture conservation
Mary Baldwin College
Furniture conservation
Blessed Sacrament Catholic Church
Conservation work
VA Governor's Mansion
Reproduction chairs for state dining room
Wharton, Aldhizer, and Weaver
Reproduction tables and chests for lobby
Edited 2/15/2007 11:17 am ET by BossCrunk
Good post.
What exactly was it that you didn't like about my post?
And you might want to check your magazine index and inform yourself of the several articles that Ray Pine has written for FW. One I know of is available as a PDF - a tip-and turn tea table article.
I'm not familiar with your work either (but like the others I disagree with your statements about panel glue-ups); I am familiar with Rob Millard's and Ray Pine's abilities, here are the links to their websites:
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com/
http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Tables&spgmPic=8&spgmFilters=#pic
These guys have forgotten more about woodworking than I'll ever know. How about you?
When these guys talk woodworking one would be well advised to listen closely. They build exquisite work as professional furnituremakers which means they do it in commercially feasible timeframes. If you've ever built a piece of custom standalone furniture on commission you know how much of a feat this is. Surviving is a feat in itself and further testament to their ability to get it done and done well.
It also might be interesting and informative for you to review some of Rob Millard's posts about his shop and equipment. If there is anybody alive wringing more out of such a modest set up then I'd bloody well like to know who they are. The FW shop it ain't.
You also might like to check out the feature article that Rob did on the Society of American Period Furnituremaker's website.
Ray's and Rob's methods of work hold up under the toughest of circumstances - standalone fine furniture, made on a commission basis, and sold to an obviously discriminating clientele.
Edited 2/15/2007 11:15 am ET by BossCrunk
BC How do you know what they've forgotten? Rich
If they've forgotten anything then it would be more than I know. :-0
I just checked the FWW magazine index and it didn't turn up anything for Ray Pine.
The article he did appeared under his full name of David Ray Pine. He did at least three articles:
Glazed Cabinet Doors May/June 1987
Pie Crust Tea Table Nov/Dec 1987
Fretwork July 1989
Rob Millard
Rob
The majority of furniture grade solid limber is classified as S & B (select and better). This classification is concerned with knots, sap pockets and obvious mineral stain, not with the growth rings. In the custom shops where I have worked, we always verified the end grain for ring orientation, and always split the boards that were likely to cup. JL
Rob,
Is there any place for pith in furniture? Could it be used to construct web frames for internal case components for example? If the wood has been sawn for grade wouldn't it be likely that the pith portion would essentially be quarter sawn?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/12/2007 7:11 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Pith is juvenile wood Bob. It has unusual characteristics in that it is soft for one and often partially rotted. It suffers from being unstable and shrinks and expands around the growth rings and radially across the growth rings much more than other parts of heartwood which will cause planks containg it to cup and/or go in winding, and even crack. It also suffers from being much more unstable in the length than other parts of heartwood and can cause planks to bow due to the elevated shrinkage characteristics.
Generally, pith is not good news in high quality furniture. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
In other words : "Do not pith about with pithy wood".Philip Marcou
Thomething along thothe lineth Thilip. Thlainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 2/13/2007 8:23 am by SgianDubh
Kindling and tomato stakes.
John W.
Bob,
I'll defer to Richard Jones on this, since I can't recall seeing a piece furniture grade lumber that was sawn from the center of the tree. I did purchase some common walnut once that contained some pith and I discarded that part of it. I see pith all the time in framing limber, and I have noted the "punky" almost rotten texture of it, but I've not paid enough attention to see its affect on stablity.
Rob Millard
Edited 2/13/2007 10:07 am ET by RMillard
The Forest Products Laboratory has articles about the effects of juvenile wood on strength and other properties it is not good. (The figure that sticks in my head is that strength is reduced to something like half.) That's why I never buy framing lumber from the big boxes, for anything beyond a dog house. While the grading rules may not automatically discard 2x4's with pith, I'd bet house engineering assumes only a normal percentage of such boards in a structure, not the 80% that seems to be the dregs selected to be sent to the borg. Lowe's, for Pete's sake, advertises "center cut" lumber. (To be fair, I think they mean it to mean boards without wane.)
Steve,
I have also laughed at the "center cut" line in their ads. I had never thought about how they were talking about the wane.
I would think the reduction in strength from a center cut piece would be more of a problem with a horizontal framing member than a vertical one. Did the article you saw, say anything about that?
I enjoy your posts. They are always right on target and informative.
Rob Millard
Actually, I agree with Rob. I'd rather have a top with a bow across the whole piece than end up with a wash board. I feel that I can fasten a top or panel in many cases and hold it. There isn't much you can do with a rippled piece. I just wanted to add a little info on certain boards that might be used in a glue up. I'm not necessarily talking about boards that are cut from the exact center of a log but those that are plain sliced through. In a textbook example, a wide board normally bows opposite from the heart side. The picture below of pine shows this typical movement. However, the elm board in the lumber rack didn't read the book. There are always exceptions to the rules. Each woodworker has to make decisions based on personal experience both with the application and the species. If I was using either of these boards for a panel glue up, (not likely), I'd rip them. With the elm, I'd rip it and glue it back the way it was after squaring up the edges to lay flatter. I think I'd look for a better piece on the pine. The cabinet grade lumber I buy down here in "Southern Quebec" is FAS, Firsts and Seconds. This means one face is first quality, not necessarily both faces. A big issue in choosing the face that shows is choosing the best looking face, your options are sometimes limited. I've seen some monster slabs of mahogany. This is one of the more stable species in my experience and I wouldn't hesitate to use it, after I wiped the drool off. I might feel differently about a slab of white pine. Please excuse my incorrect term "bowed", it should read "bellied".
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer 1
Thanks for taking the pictures and posting them. You and Rob are welcome to your points of view and I will not feel slighted in the least if you both stick to your guns.
Looking at the pics it seems to me that on the elm board I can see two hearts, on the convex side of the belly. It is a bit hard to make out because of the checking. The pine is clear as a bell and also showing signs of the heart on the convex side of the bow. Either way, I would split, orient and glue...and flatten the glued up boards. Then I would smile when I was told that I will end up with a washboard one day soon. :-)
There is some beautiful mahogany still available in wide boards, but as far as our own indigenous wood is concerned, the boards are getting narrower by the day. I see many lumber trucks on the highways carrying American logs for milling in Quebec mills, and I do not see many trees that take my breath away anymore. Similarly in Canada. The real old growth trees are now few and far between...maybe some on the west coast still are around, but not for long, and definitely not the hardwoods.
How can you be living in Southern Quebec if I am living in the Northern USA? Politics and economics has me wondering exactly where I do live. Good thing there is woodworking to keep me busy. JL
My experience is that when gluing up a panel, no general rules (like nothing over 4" or must alternate growth rings) will give you the best answer in all situations. It's more like planing - you need to read the grain and consider the wood species' properties. Flat sawn, quarter sawn, or rift sawn can all behave differently as can different woods. Moreover, in different applications, panels can be restrained to resist cupping through various mechanical means, meaning you don't need to be very concerned about the issue when gluing up the panel. In short, it's better to think through a given situation than to try to find a rule and blindly apply it to all situations. FWIW
To some extent all of the posts are correct. John in right on the money when he is talking about stability. The furniture industry has established the norm of no boards over 4" because it allows them to use almost any lumber that comes to the factory floor and still have a relatively stable piece. The other post that said that they used wide boards in the old days is also correct. Those boards were old growth lumber and were air dried and left to set in the lumber storage to observe their movement. If they warped they cut them up into smaller pieces to be used in other parts of the project. I have seen walnut desktops that are one 30" 5/4 board, but the growth rings are about 1/8" per year. The one post that has the best solution to your problem is the one that says to use straight, flat lumber in the rough. If it was dried and remained flat and stable it probably will after it is machined and glued up. We just don't have the quality of lumber that the old masters used because all those trees are gone. I saw a picture of a walnut tree from the area around Toledo,Ohio called the black swamp and it was 8' in diameter. We have to use what we have and pay more attention to wood movement in our construction.
Tage Frid was an advocate of having the growth rings all run the same way. He argued that the larger bow, if it tended to happen, could be relatively easily tamed with the clips (and screws in the center of the panel) while the washboard couldn't be so easily prevented. It's true there is likely more stresses from using that method, but having table tops pull off of their rails isn't something we hear about very often which suggests that the stresses are usually manageable. If that's the case, and it should be with well dried and acclimated lumber, then going for appearance is clearly the best way to go.
It may be true that walnut isn't the same quality, and it is surely true that the true Cuban Mahogany is virtually gone, but I've still had success with 16"--18" wide single boards with only minor wood movement. The only noticeable warping is with an unanchored fly on a Mahogany card table that changes seasonally from flat in summer to raising on one end by maybe 3/32nds. Since that's less than the gap on the original in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I'll take it. I might not if I were making contemporary gallery furniture.
Steve I agree, I still think the secret is to use wood that is stable and flat in the rough. When you machine the cup and bow out of lumber those stresses are still in the board. If you look at Thos. Mosher furniture, he uses a lot of very wide boards and he is very successful with that approach. I made a dresser with 4 12" drawers and 4 8"drawers and used single boards for the drawer fronts successfully, but those boards were dead flat and had been kiln dried and stored for over twenty years(saving them for just the right project) and my wife loves the look. I try to use quartersawn for stiles and rails and all my active stuff I cut into smaller more manageable pieces and hope for the best. Use good construction techniques, allow for wood movement and finish all exposed wood on both sides is about all we can do to control nature.
DWW
I happen to come from the same school of thought as Rob (Millard) in this case. Panels made out of 3 to 5 inch cut ups look horrible. I regularly make raised panel doors out of 8/4 resawn boards that are 8 to 10 inches wide, allowing me to create bookmatched doors. I always use stock that is properly dried and acclimated to my shop, and have never had a problem with a panel cupping beyond what the reasonably critical eye would call unuseable.
Sometimes, I end up with some reaction wood when resawing, and the panel cups in the first day, sometimes even badly. I simply add it to the firewood pile, and move on. It doesn't happen often enough to worry about it.
What good is a table top glued up of 4 inch strips that has alternated grain patterns if it looks like absolute hell. Build for aesthetics, with serious attention paid to wood movement and proper joinery, and you'll enjoy the benefits for a long time.
Jeff
For a free standing cabinet of solid stock there should be no problem at all with warping/movement because the grain is running in the same direction i.e. across on top sides and bottom- PROVIDED the timber is properly seasoned and in equilibrium with local conditionsi.e you did not bring it in from Singapore yesterday into your shop in Colarado.(dry place I think)
Go ahead and glue it up from the widest stock you have-I doubt if you have Ash boards 22" wide so glue it up from two or three boards and match the grain so it pleases your eye-the ultimate would be if the top and sides were from one length of glued up stock so that the grain would look continuous.Minimum/Maximum widths- that is just nonsense. Alternating/ all one direction -to me that too is of doubtful use , especially in this case , although on a table top to apron attachment there could be some merit in the cupping theory.
The most important things are to use stable timber well acclimatised and to pay attention to the fact that timber needs to move according to variation in moisture content due to climate, so construction methods should accomodate this-but for your cabinet it is quite simple.
Mixing quarter sawn boards with flat sawn in a panel glue-up is not a good plan- the joint will not remain flush.
You will get 400 answers and theories to this one - there have been skirmishes bordering on civil wars on Knots- but if you look at my web site you will see that I have built one or two solid wood carcases over the years which now rest all over the world- no problems becauase I always use prime grade timbers of a stable nature, thoroughly seasoned.
Basically Rob Millard has managed to say what I have in far less words so here endeth the sermon- except that boards containing the center ring/cut from the middle of the trunk will have pith with cracks and other defects-these are therefore best cut in two to arrive at 2 quarter sawn boards.Prime grade timber should not include center pith stuff.Philip Marcou
Edited 2/2/2007 1:31 am by philip
Wow!! I had no idea I would begin a thread of such excellent quality responses! Thank you all for the informtion; it has been a pleasure to read and absorb.
I am looking more at aesthetics for these cabinets and I do have two wide boards, one 16+ and one 18+ by 8', that I am not going to incorporate into these units but rather save for possible table construction (both appear in the rough to have some nice grain pattern) at a later date. Again, I had my doubts about the correctness of the information I had received but wanted to throw it out on this site where I KNOW there is years of WW experience and knowledge. The wood is kiln dried and has been acclimating to the lack of humidity in Bakersfield, Ca. for about four weeks (stickered and under weight) and I believe it is well ready for milling. Thank you again all...Tim
Sorry for the late response, but I just ran into this:http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/wag/1995/WAG_95_howlett.pdf
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