Hello,
I am finishing red oak with a linseed oil/varnish blend (Tried & True varnish oil). After the first coat, I sanded with 400 grit, and after the second, I started to rub with 0000 steel wool – but it looks like the steel wool is producing dust that is filling up the pores in the grain. So, I have gray flecks everywhere there should be red grain.
I tried sanding this out with 400 grit paper, and while this helps, the flecks are still in there. I tried going over the grain with a magnet, tried using my shop vac, tried using a firm brush, and have wiped it down with mineral spirits (which I think is helping a little).
Every book I have says to use this between coats or before the final coat. I did not realize it would shed filings and turn the oak’s grain black – and then later, I will get stains from tannins.
Is there any way I can fix the problem?
Thank you!
– Daniel
Replies
Daniel,
You did 2 things wrong. You can fix both, but it will take some doing.
The first was to use Tried and Tue. This forum is filled with messages about those of us who have used the stuff and hate it because it won't harden, and those who say it worked for them and and that all the naysayers simply have not followed instructions to apply it in thin coats, to wipe it all off, very meticulously, to heat it, etc., etc. THAT is absolutely NOT the case.
The simple fact is that it's a product with terrible quality control and huge variation in ability to properly polymerize (harden) from batch to batch. If you get stuff that won't polymerize, it just won't.
And that's what probably happened to you. The stuff is just a gooey mess in the oak's pores, has trapped the steel wool dust and while it's still a tacky finish is viscous and tenacious enough in there to prevent you from ever washing it out with solvents or whatever else you try.
The 2nd thing you did wrong was to use steel wool to burnish a not-yet-adequately-polymerized film, especially on an open-grained wood. Which just really brings us back to the Tried and True problem, anyway.
You should NEVER use steel wool until the first several coats of a finish (especially an oil or oil-varnish) have really sealed the wood and hardened, at least to the touch. Then you can use a steel wood pad as the applicator and burnish the underlying stuff as you build up some luster with multiple applications. In one effort you have become an expert on this problem.
You can't get the steel wool out of the pores. It will always look dirty and shabby. And it will eventually rust!
You have to sand the wood down an amount equal to at least the bottom of the filled pores to release the steel particles. You can't do that with 400 grit. You have to start over using your coarsest grit and work up through the grits AFTER the coarsest grade has cleaned up the oak.
Then use something other than Tried and True. There are hundreds of other choices. I strongly recommend an oil-varnish mix for what you are trying to do.
Rich
Edited 8/4/2009 6:29 pm ET by Rich14
Ummmm. Think about it. Why would you have not wiped off the surface after doing ANY kind of sanding with steel wool or sandpaper. I vacuum the surface, pushing the vacuum brush down hard on the surface and "scrubbing" it, and then wipe it with mineral spirits.
I think you misunderstand me. I wiped the surface with steel wool one week after applying a coat of the oil/varnish blend. This was to burnish the surface before applying a new coat. I did not wipe any finish on top of the steel wool dust. I cannot wipe it off, vacuum, or brush it out because it is stuck in the grain.
Daniel,Even if you had waited a month after using Tried and True, you would have had the same disaster with the steel wool. I bought several cans from different sources in different delivery areas. None of the batches I used EVER got hard.It performed about the way raw linseed oil does. Great as a solvent/vehicle for artist's oil paints, terrible as a wood finish.Rich
Way off subject but raw linseed oil does work GREAT on woods outdoors!
Will,"Way off subject but raw linseed oil does work GREAT on woods outdoors!"In what way?Rich
Rich,
I could be out to lunch on this but isn't linseed the oil used in exterior oil based stains? I just painted/stained my house with Olympic Oil Based solid color and I think it has linseed oil in it, sure smells like it anyway.
I've also heard that linseed oil isn't recommended for outside applications and yet it was used to prep windows for glazing. I understand one does that so the wood doesn't dry out the glazing material but it's still outside.
Seems like a bit of a conumdrum to me. Could you shed some light on this?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Olympic Oil Based solid color .. Olympic and Cabot make great stuff in my opinion!
The Olympic goes on really good too, found just the right brush. The local hardware store was dumping all their Olympic and switching over to Cabot.
We bought 20 gals. for $5 each. It doesn't have to be all the same color, just mixed it all together. Came out a kinda funky color and the back of the garage looks like it was camoed, but what the heck.
Now that I think about it the folks in the cars going by the house look at the house kinda weird ye know.......
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Difference between linseed oil and boiled linseed oil--with the windows probably. I haven't heard that.
However, with reference to using linseed oil on outdoor wood, a friend used to oil their Colorado cabin every year--until the builder told them that all that did was make a sticky mess on the wood.Gretchen
Bob,"I could be out to lunch on this but isn't linseed the oil used in exterior oil based stains? . . . Could you shed some light on this?"Nope. But maybe someone else can. I'm sure there is a lot of proprietary chemistry in such products in addition to Linseed oil. There are pigments, other colorants, probably driers and other agents, UV retarders, etc and a complex expectation of the way the whole formulation responds to UV, and the elements.Not really the same conditions in which a piece of furniture, with its finish would be expected to survive.Artists oils (pigments in raw linseed oil) on canvas are among the most durable media known (probably exceeded now by automotive acrylics and lacquers) and have survived centuries, some a thousand years.Rich
Don't know that it will work, but you might try rubbing a fine brass brush with the grain in the hope that it will pull out some of the steel wool fibers. Can't think of any additional problem it would create. If a brass bristle brush is hard to find, try a commercial paint supplier in your area.
Sorry for your troubles. Wish I had some good news. Tried and True like another stated is .. not too good.
Next time use Scotch brite pads and don't use steel wool and you can avoid the problems you are having.
You're not alone in this steel wool trouble. I stain my curly maple rifle stocks with nitric acid. If you use steel wool to polish the surface, you get some ugly results. Results you can not reverse completely.
I would get that T and T off the surface any way possibe and start over.
good luck
I use 3M pads ALOT! Never steelwool anymore.. I love my Green/Gray pads.. Even the 3M pads leave stuff in the grain. But then again I never saw it rust!
Open grain wood.. Of any type.. Stuff sticks in the grain! Whatever you use!
Will,"Stuff sticks in the grain! Whatever you use!"Not if you properly seal it first.Rich
I say not so.. I use shellac wash coat.. So OK I can wash out with Alcohol but I get dizzy using it...
Yeah,
I get dizzy too. But that's because we need to stop drinking the stuff.
Ditto on the "Tried and True" - perhaps "Tried and Wrong" would be more accurate. And never use true steel wool on a finish - there are too many risks, and there is an easy, inexpensive, and completely safe alternative - synthetic steel wool. It comes in green (so-called "fine"), maroon ("very fine"), gray ("ultra fine") and white (no grit), and you can buy it at most woodworking stores.
As for getting the steel particles out, you've several choices. The most sure is removing sufficient surface to remove all of the finish and the steel particles all at once by sanding. However, you can also dissolve the steel with an acid wash. Realize, however, that this acid wash may negatively affect the color of your piece.
The most bullet-proof acid to use is muriatic from the big box store, diluted 1:2 with distilled water (always add the acid to the water, not the other way around!). Apply this to the surface with a rag - you should see the steel particles fizzing violently. Re-apply it until you see no further fizzing. By the way - 1:2 Muriatic acid will burn the snot out of your skin and clothes, so use protection.
When done, you need to rinse the piece copiously with distilled water to which 1 teaspoon per quart of sodium bicarbonate has been added, followed by a rinse with pure distilled water. Let the piece dry for a few days, and proceed with re-finishing.
> The most bullet-proof acid to use is muriatic from the big box store, diluted 1:2 with distilled water (always add the acid to the water, not the other way around!). Apply this to the surface with a rag - you should see the steel particles fizzing violently. Re-apply it until you see no further fizzing. Are you speaking from experience on wood, or is this speculation?
Edited 8/5/2009 8:15 pm ET by PeteBradley
As you've discovered, oil finishes and red oak can lead to trouble. The deep pores in the oak hold more oil than will cure readily. I don't have any foolproof methods for getting it out, but flooding with mineral spirits may help get a lot of it.
Pete
Use a couple of coats of thin shellac, about a 1 1/2 to 2 pound cut. Then wipe on ####cherry or walnut gel stain to color the pores.
Sand with 400 grit to remove most of the gel from the surface and seal with a couple of more coats of shellac.
Then wipe on some thinned varnish or oil varnish mix.
F.
i agree with floss i have done that in the past and it has worked.
use dewaxed shellac or zinser sealcoat and use a stain that matches the grain color
after the shellac dries apply the stain and then you can wipe it down with mineral spirits and the stain will stay in the pores
good luck
I think it might be worth trying to wash the finish off with strong solvent or even paint remover and start over. Since the steel particles are trapped in uncured oil, they should wash out with the oil.
I'd start with xylene and a tooth brush (use DW's brush, not yours)or something with similarly short, fine and stiff bristles, perhaps even a fine brass brush. If xylene doesn't get it, go to acetone or MEK, before resorting to a methanol/methylene chloride stripper.
I’ve been looking for a solution on how to remove embedded steel wool stuck in the grain. I haven’t anything that really worked for me just yet, especially anything that won’t kill a few brain cells, possibility give me chemical burns, or out right ruin the wood I’m working in. But I’ve given it some thought and I’m about to try another method I just made up now. If you’ve got steel wool that’s embedded and vacuuming or magnets don’t work I took vinegar and whipped wiped all my surfaces that had the embedded steel wool. The idea is to go ahead and let the steel wool rust. By using vinegar to strip the protective coating on the steel wall leaving it exposed will allow it to rust in place and embedded. I left the vinegar on and let it soak in for about 5-10 minutes. Then I washed the wood with water to neutralize the acidity. Then I left the wood to dry. As the wood dried it ebonized Jennings me know the rusting process was happening. After it’s all dried. I used Bar Keepers Friend soft cleaner and a toothbrush to massage in the solution for a minute. Then wiped the excess and with a water damp towel.
I know a lot of people have used 0000 steel wool with success, but I'm not one of them. I tried it once - anyone want some steel wool? I went to ScotchBrite pads and never looked back.
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