What is the difference between MDF and particleboard? Can MDF be used as substrate for a plastic laminate countertop?
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MDF is made from wood flour, the 4"-5" pour-out goes into a hydraulic press/oven and comes out a 3/4" th. sheet.
Particle board is made with sawdust and tiny pieces you can identify as a piece (not as a powder). It may/may not be "cooked" like MDF, I am not sure and don't care. I don't like it, don't trust it. I have seen too many items that failed that were made out of particle board.
MDF makes an excellent substrate for high pressure laminates. For a laminated countertop in a wet location, either apply multiple coats of sealer or apply a "backer sheet" of laminate. There is a product intended for the backside. The backer sheet is less expensive than the "finish side" laminates are. If applying a sealer, be sure to seal all exposed edges against liquids very well. Be especially conscientious around sink cut-outs. Once MDF soaks-up a liquid, it will swell and distort, there is no repair.
For a typical countertop fabrication, I recommend the 3/4" MDF be augmented with a perimeter band of 3-in. to 4-in. wide x 3/4" MDF to the underside. Adding additional 4-in. strips, from front to rear edges, where cabinet partitions will be located.
What's your favorite glue and clamping arrangement? I've been using Titebond I or II and tapered cauls every 4-5 inches. Seems ok but always on the looking for a better way."There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who get binary and those who don't." -Tim Kramer
Thousands of ww'ers can't be wrong about Titebond glue. My personal preference is also with them, Titebond I.
For use with MDF, I counteract the "skating" effect, when clamps are added, by shooting a 1-in. brad, here and there.
For attatching laminate contact adhesive is the norm. The backing is designed for this type of adhesive. The normal porcedure is to use metal slats from those cheep blinds. If you are not familular with this method I can explain it if you want. Also If the cabinets are designed properly (enough supports for the counter) There is no difference between MDF and particle board. Both are ruined by water, so there is no real difference there.
Mike
"If you are not familular with this method I can explain it if you want." Yes, please!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I hope I didn't sound like an a$$ when I said that... I just type slow and didn't want to waste yalls and my time.
The most common procedeure for adhereing laminates to their substrate (usually p-board or MDF) is to first roll on the contact adhesive to BOTH pieces being glued (the substrate and the laminate) with a 1/8" nap roller. They sell rollers for adhesives at the big boxes. Then let both sides dry untill they are no longer tacky to the touch, about 10 minutes but not more than 20 minutes. Read the directions on the can for more details. This is what is great about contact adhesives, after the adhesive dries you can easily handle it because once dry it will only stick to itself! But make sure you have no dried adhesive on your fingers!! I wear gloves and change them often. Once the surfaces with the dried glue touch they instantly bond, and there is pretty much NO WAY you are getting them apart. SO the challenge is lineing up the laminate and applying it in such a way as to not trap air bubles, this is almost imposbile on the typicaly large pieces you are using. Unless you know the trick. Find an old miniblind and remove the "louvers". I am talking about the metal blade type miniblinds. These louvers will not stick to the adhesive. Lay them across the substrate every 12" or so. Then you can safely lay the laminate over the substrate with the louvers preventing them from sticking. After you get every thing lined up you start pulling out the louvers in the middle and pressing the pieces togather, a laminate roller helps. then pull out the louvers one by one, from the center out, untill you are done. It is easy to get the air bubles out because you are only working 12" at a time.
Mike
Thank you for the time and effort, Mike. I do appreciate it! We're thinking about putting new tops in the kitchen and I may need to perform this amazing trick.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The venetian blind slats always make me nervous -- too little space between the laminate and the substrate. I keep a bundle of 3/4" dowels (by 36 ") for this purpose. Keeps my anxiety level down.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
I suspect there may be others of you that don't think that the substrates are the same or don't matter, and the glue and the laminate will look and act the same, I think you will find the industrial grade of PB is a lot harder and stiffer than MDF, which has a lot of variability nowadays. You may find that one may sag under its own weight over time. My supplier carries a 1 1/8" X 25" X 12' that is made just for counter tops, and is probably the best substrate, but you need to be pretty stout to work with it.Finally, for anyone who makes their living at woodworking, If you get a job that requires two days of laying laminate with brush or roll type contact, do yourself a favor, and buy a tank and spray- gun, and save a day of work. It will pay for itself in time saved, plus the VOC emissions are not as bad.
Ditto on the spray gun .
Best way I've found for keeping lam from sticking : TYVEK. Won't stick to either side, cover the whole counter with it, get the lam right where it needs to be; slide tyvek out.
Bing
Years ago I had a side job as a helper installing cabinets with local master of that particular niche. He did it precisely as you explained but with one difference. He would use WD-40 to lubricate the slats.
Several years later I found myself as a cabinet maker at an exhibit house. There we did a LOT of laminating (both applying and removing) and instead of the venetian blind slats, we used wood dowels like Nikkiwood described. Metal dowels are also used and have the advantage of being cleanable.
With the water-based contact adhesives there is no practical way to separate the laminate from the substrait once there's been contact. But, with the solvent based adhesives it is relatively easy, if messy, to separate them using lacquer thinner. If you're careful you can usually salvage a mismatched application attempt by using lacquer thinner to dissolve the bond. Just let both surfaces dry for a good long time and then restick the laminate.
Lacquer thinner will work to break the water-based adhesive bond. But, being water-based the lacquer thinner won't redissolve it in a way that leaves it usable afterwards.
The laminates I've used are stiff enough that they never make contact between. I like the closeness because I can cut the laminate smaller and some times that save mega bucks (we mostly use very expensive laminates). What I don't like about dowels is that after a while they get gummed up and start sticking, which means they have to be cleaned..... which sucks. Also my slats where free where as dowels are some what costly. But you are correct if you don't put enough slats, every 12" or so, you could have a problem.
My main problem is with the glue gumming up my trimming bits. Do you have any solution to that?
Mike
<My main problem is with the glue gumming up my trimming bits. Do you have any solution to that?>In a trimmer, use a solid carbide straight cutter with it rubbing against a scrap held against the edge. Then switch to the bearing cutters to do the final finishing. They will stay cleaner when they only have to clean up a 1/16" or so.I have seen some router bits in the catalogs that have a square block of UHMW with the bearing pressed into it, so the square slides along the edge, while supposedly keeping the beaering clean. I don't know if it works, but it looks good to me.
Thanks guys,
My problem is not with the bearings, it is the carbide and body of the bit. I like the idea of using two bits. I don't have a lot of extra squeze out or what ever. I have thought of using PAM, or olive oil (my wifes sugestion).
The Tyvek idea is super! Do you use the same stuff used for sheathing a house?
Mike
My main problem is with the glue gumming up my trimming bits. Do you have any solution to that?
Yes and no. Is it just adhesive from the laminate or is it adhesive that was slopped over the edge so that the surface you run the router bit's bearing on has adhesive which is sticking to the bearing?
If the later... then I would look at finding a way to clean the adhesive off before routing the lam. Running a strip of masking tape before you glue up and then remove it before routing works well.
If the former... We used to spray WD-40 or even Counter Top Magic (a laminate cleaner) on the bearing and that worked pretty good. It also makes any adhesive gummed up on the bearing come off very easily. But, we started having problems with the bearings wearing out. Someone figured that the WD-40 was penetrating the bearings and drying them out so that they wore out faster.
Needless to say... having a bearing burn out while you're trimming some laminate resulted in a more expensive problem than having to deal with adhesive sticking to the bearings. So, we were ordered to stop spraying them and just deal with the adhesive sticking to the bearing.
Now, whether the WD-40 really was causing the bearings to wear out prematurely... I honestly don't know. I was only a builder for a couple years and then went back to painting and finishing. Perhaps someone else here with more experience can address the issue.
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