I would like to hear what different folks do to measure and mark joints, layout etc. As I progress, I find myself measuring to smaller tolerances and I am having a hard time marking the measurements. I have heard of and seen marking gauges, but never used one and I have no idea what the different types and styles do. Same with marking knives. What is the difference between all metal wheels ones and the scratch ones etc. What should I look for in a used ones or new ones, and why?
Dan Carroll
Replies
Dan,
The "wheel" gauges ala Titemark have round blades, but calling them wheels makes it sound like the blade spins freely in use, when in fact they are fixed with a tightened screw.
The main difference is that the wheel gauges cut/slice whereas the pin gauges tear, unless you grind the pin to have a flat side.
There are really more than two types of gauges --- there are also gauges with two pins or cutters for marking tenons. Also, when it comes to cutting gauges, the bevel becomes a factor -- facing out for some purposes, facing in for other purposes. Once you start using gauges, the importance of this will become more apparent to you.
I have several gauges of various types and find that it is often useful to have several so that one can keep them set during a larger project. Gauges are not expensive so my recommendation is to try out several kinds and see which you like to use. A lot of this comes down to personal preference, so you will probably hear many recommendations of what people like the best. Even cheap wooden gauges can work effectively if you put in some time to modifying them. Among the wheel gauges, ones with micro-adjust (like Tite-Mark) are a bit easier to set one-handed (in my experience), but even the ones with single adjusters can be used effectively. That's what 15-year-olds use in our school's workshop, and they seem to work fine for them. (the basic ones from Lee Valley).
I'll share one tip about marking that I have found to be effective. Even though marking gauges with double cutters/pins are called "mortise gauges," I actually use a single cutting gauge to mark a mortise. I mark one side of the mortise, then use a pencil and square to mark lines perpendicular to it -- chiseling on each line with a mortise chisel. Then I use the "mortise gauge," set to the width of the chisel, to mark the tenon. I have found this to be effective. This way, I can keep the two gauges set for the entire project. After all, the distance from the face edge of the mortise might not be the same distance set for the tenon from the face edge --- I'm not sure if I'm expressing that clearly, but it works for me. Perhaps I need to learn to post pictures.
-Andy
DanCC
seldom measure anything anymore.. Instead I use story poles for most of my work.. can't make a mismeasurement that way..
Frenchy,
I like the story stick for green woodworking (eg chair parts) but have shied away a bit for cabinet making, where I have perhaps foolishly become enamoured of that 0.1mm accuracy. However, I have read that many olden time makers did use a story stick (of some accuracy) for making and checking various furniture parts to a standard pattern.
Could you elaborate a bit on your use of them?
Thanks in anticipation.
Lataxe, not yet infallible.
Lataxe,
I've completely given up on measurements. Things need to be so long, so high, and so wide. usually determined by the wood on hand and the space required to fill it.. I make story sticks out of anything.. offcuts, shingles, bits of wire, whatever.. MY plans are the vague ideas floating around in my head of needing something to fill that amount of space and it shouldn't stick out past here.. who cares if that's 12 inches or 11 & 19/32nds? Board long enough? hold it up to make sure, wide enough? do the same. make the left side the same as the right side the fron the same as the back and everything is square and the proper size.. custom taken to the ultimate level..
You know what's cool? I virtually eliminate mistakes and things just fit better..
the only time lately I use actual measurements is when I have someone working with me and they can't grasp the concept..
I just did a clever bit on the roof. the front of my roof in order to conform to city requirements needed to be an ellispe. I put the soffit boards in radially and to get the proper degree of taper instead of doing a lot of calculation and trial and error I grabbed a chaulk line and pulled it to the longest sides I marked it's length with my thumb came down and snapped that chaulk line on the wood I intened to use (about so long) took my scrib found center of the board put the board on the chaulk line and pulled it tight from corner to corner, threw the result on the table saw and lined everything up. moved the taper jig to the resulting angle and had my pattern.. put the resulting soffit boards up untill they no longer pointed exactly to the center and repeated..
you should see how nice everything worked and how easy it was to do.. I'd have gone nuts trying to do the math or figured it out from a set of plans (that don't exist)
The real issue with measuring things is wood varies,, a little twist here. a little better figure over there,thicker thinner, etc.. your eyeball won't lie.. start to trust it.
Frenchy, no doubt story sticks are great, especially for bigger stuff. I use my own version for any furniture making that I do- BUT, the question is what does one do and use when there is the need to transfer these dimensions to the wood? That is the question.....
Another way to put it is to ask "How did you put those measurements and dimensions onto the story stick in the first place"-if you want to use the stick to accurately check then the details on it must be accurate.
Or, if you just have a story stick with details such as "distance from point A to point B is x", then one still needs to get that detail onto the work....Philip Marcou
philip,
Transfering measurements? Simple! The degree of accuracy required determine the method to be used. In extreme cases you can use a square and a sharp knife. in typical use you simply transfer the marks with a pencil.
We're working with wood here, not machining the space shuttle..
Relax-that is all I wanted to know (;)
P.S. I have got two hats-one for woodworking and the other for plane making, and I don't wear them both at once.Philip Marcou
in typical use you simply transfer the marks with a pencil.
...WOW.. Reminds me of TV SHows with David Marks (who I like to watch)..I always see him marking sticks with a No. 2 pencil sharpened at the last project hi did and stuff turns out pretty well I'd say!
Frenchy,
I can see that it is posible to eliminate or reduce many of the measurements made in some styles of furniture production, merely fitting stuff together by eye (as you describe) and to fit a location/purpose. But there must be some instances where accurate measurement is a must; or at least saves hours of trial & error fitting, with unfixable error being one distinct possibility?
I'm thinking of tasks like marking out hand made M&Ts; getting a part to a thickness to meet other parts flush; making shoulders square; and so forth. Perhaps even these tasks can be done "by eye" but is that always the fastest and most sure method?
Making a greenwood chair is a good example of both techniques (story stick and accurate measurement) used together. The ladder back chairs I make can have all their parts made to initial dimensions via a simple story stick that has been made and marked to the various lengths, to an accuracy of maybe +/- 2mm or so at best.
The holes to gauge the leg diameters are a bit more accurate, +/-1mm, simply because the trial and error fitting as one drawknifes them down to size will include some unavoidable over-cutting.
The sizing gauge used to make the round tenons on the lathe must be set to an accuracyof +/- 0.1mm. Similarly, the auger used to make the round mortise must be accurate to +/-0.1mm. (The two diameters are different, incidentally; and by a critical amount).
This accuracy for the M&Ts is necesry because the design uses differential shrinkage of (greenwood) mortise and (super-dry) tenon to create a mechanical grab when the two match moisture content. If the dimensions are wrong by even a little bit, the leg will split (joint too tight) or the tenon will eventually come out (too loose). There is also the potential problem of a too-tight initial fit preventing the tenon from being clamped home into the mortise.
But I suspect that you are right when you say that we tend to over-measure and over-mark sometimes, in the belief that more accuracy must be good when (as you say) the wood itself does not always care.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Well consider the time it takes to carefully measure and mark something and weigh that time against the time it take to do trial fits.. I suspect it's a wash. It really depends on your nature though. Are you the type of person who obeys all the rules and thinks they are a good thing or do you have a more flexible attitude?* Here's how to check and see which sort of person you are..
It's three in the morning on a nice bright full moon night and there's an intersection ahead with a stop sign. You're in rural North Dakota where you won't see cars during the day for 20-30 minutes at a crack and it's 3 in the morning.. You can see for miles in each direction clearly (bright moon out remember?) Do you stop at the stop sign or do you save the gas and wear on your brakes and roll the stop sign? If you stop and look both ways then get out the measuring stuff because your life is defined for you by people who have no interest in you and they will be telling you what to do all of your life. If you roll the stop sign, use story sticks..
One of the basic tenets I have in making stuff fit is that it's real easy to remove more harder to add back (harder but not impossible)
My favorite correction was when I was still measuring things I made a hole 2 & 7/8ths of an inch when it really needed to be 2 inch& 5/8ths. Not something that a little glue and sawdust will correct. I made a plug the 2 &7/8ths and glued it in and then made the hole the correct size. Looking at it I realized that was a chance for a design statement so I bored the hole out to 3 inches and put a contrasting wood in all the holes and then bored it out to the correct size. Even today I smile when I see that piece.. it's a positively elegant little ring that makes a boring piece interesting..
But I digress, I find it impossible to make a mistake with a story stick. Not only possible, but likely certain, that sooner or later I will make an error in measurement.
There was a thread earlier about coping others work when you use a story stick others will not copy so successfully. the reason is we all tend to make measurements at even intervals 10&3/4 rather than 10 &23/32nds. but that tiny bit of difference can be significant in so any ways
IN addition use of a story stick has a real custom element to it. Things are done to that size because that's what actually fits properly rather than works out nicely mathematically..
Lataxe,
There are ways of reducing the amount of measuring, or the need for great precision in measuring. Frenchy's story stick is one. As regards your question re: laying out mortises and tenons--The mortise guage's distance between points is best set very precisely to exactly--what? The width of the chisel that will cut the mortise. No measuring with a rule here. The distance from edge of the stock is not so critical. Rule of thumb for a mortise is 1/3 the thickness of the stock, but it need not be exactly in the center. Indeed sometimes you may want it offset one way or the other, but seldom does one need to measure finer than half a sixteenth. Once set, the guage is most often used to mark out both mortise and tenon, referencing off the appropriate face of the stock.
Many times it is more important that a number of pieces be the same length, than that they be a certain specific length-- drawer rails for a chest of drawers, for instance. The design may say they ought be 39" long between tenons, but if they are 39 1/32" who will know? (Or if the tenons are 1", 1 1/8, or 7/8" long?) Better that they all be the same, and measuring and marking one, and transferring that to the others via square and scribe, or stop blocks will simplify the process. Then at least the case will not be tapered, or wavy, like the bookcase I made in 8th grade shop with every shelf a different length- 30", give or take an 1/8".
Of course fitting drawer fronts to the assembled case will be easier, if the openings at least approximate the sizes you planned, and wrote down on the cut list. Even so, I usually end up fitting the first one to its opening by trail and error, creeping up on a good fit, then using that length (whatever it is) to cut the rest.
Getting parts flush is another case in point. If your guage is set at a nominal 7/8", and you are dressing door stock, it is more important that stiles and rails be planed to the same setting of the guage, than that some be exactly the "right" thickness, and others almost so, or worst, tapered in thickness from one end to the other. There'll be less fiddling to do later, after assembly.
There are places where great accuracy is not needed. But a certain amount of regulation, or uniformity, in some places, makes work easier. The challenge is to know the places where high regulation is worth working towards and where it is not. Am I starting to sound like Adam?
Ray
Ray,
Your measurement advice makes sense and I do sort of follow the methods you describe. For instance:
"The mortise guage's distance between points is best set very precisely to exactly--what? The width of the chisel that will cut the mortise. No measuring with a rule here. The distance from edge of the stock is not so critical. ....... Once set, the guage is most often used to mark out both mortise and tenon, referencing off the appropriate face of the stock".
This is what I have been doing.
The process using the router (the application of stop blocks, fence setting and bit-selection "by eye") is measurement-free; and mark-out-free too. So I understand the concept.
By hand, I like to have mortise lines to chisel between and tenon lines to handsaw to. The guages provide an accurate (chisel) width, a matching pair of lines to saw the tenon to and a match between the length and location of the mortise and the tenon. No ruler measurements (except maybe just to ensure no wildly silly locations of the M&T) but those chisel and saw guides have to be exact. The marking gauges provide that.
Happily a Titemark guage can be fitted wth either: one of four common-width double blades; or with two blades that the user can set the disatnce between. I have four mortise chisels to match the four set-width cutters.
When I get a saw cut wrong and need to pare the tenons a bit, a vernier guage helps me not to go wrong with the shoulder plane or file - in particular, to avoid ending up with a varible-thickness tenon.
I do know a chairmaker who chisels mortises for the slats in his ladderbacks entirely by eye. He just uses the appropriate width mortise chisel and off he goes. The tenons of the slats are pared with a spokeshave until they fit. He gets them slats properly located, spaced and even every time.
But he had made hunderds and the technique is second nature to him. If I did that my mortises would all be here and there, wonky and of different lengths. My tenons would be 1/4 inch too thick or skinny at one end and fat at the other.
So, I accept that we can forego the measurementof absolutely everything and just make things match. But for those critical joint surfaces and shapes, I at least like the aid of knifed lines that are in the right place and of the right dimensions. When I need to correct my errors, I like to check the measurements as I go. But it may be just a lack of experience and the associated confidence.
But this is what you're saying I think - that a "certain amount of regulation or uniformity" is helpful (and got via the instrumentation) but that otherwise we can "sneak up on" other dimensions, to create the correct or pleasing fit. This is what I am currently trying to achieve and perhaps any ruler or measurement check is just the (temporary) safety belt to go with the braces, for a learner like me.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
In the pursuit of another skill in which I am trying to achieve a degree of competence, I was doing some reading, and came across a description of four levels of competence:
1) Unconscious incompetence- wherein the individual not only doesn't know, but is unaware of his state of ignorance. (As country comedienne Minnie Pearl used to say about her cousin, "He's so dumb, he not only don't know nuthin', he don't even suspect anything!"
2) Conscious incompetence- Awareness that there are skills, but no ability to demonstrate them.
3) Conscious competence- Performance of the skilled behavior only with the application of concentrated effort.
4) Unconscious competence- Skilled performance without conscious thought.
The latter is what a "master" of a skill exhibits, the example given was that of driving a car, where many complicated calculations are required every second, multiple variables taken into account and dealt with or discounted, in a trip to the store, after which we have no recollection of any specifics of the trip; we do it "without thinking about it".
Many shop procedures (athletic skills, bad habits) are that way. After many iterations of repetition and trial and error, one picks up a guage and sets it to a chisel's width, then cuts a mortise; or planes a surface, picking up on and accomodating grain changes, all the while thinking of what to do with the roast that's thawing in the fridge for supper tonight.
It has to do with "muscle memory" - a group of motions has been repeated so often to accomplish a desired end, that they are packaged somewhere in the mind in such a way that when called for, it sets in place a train of actions that take place without much awareness or concentration. Your friend the chair bodger, is to that point. It is difficult to reach that level of competence without the benefit (?) of many years of day in, day out, practice. Most would call it drudgery, and quit (if they have a choice) before getting there. The rest are driven, by the quest for excellence, or by sheer economic necessity.
Ray
Where do talent and luck come in, you beam of coniferousness?
Sam,
If you are lucky, you'll have 1) enough talent that you won't need all that practice, or 2) enough wherewithall you won't have to develop the skills in the first place. You can remain ignorant then, either way!
Hah,
Ray, more a splinter, than a beam, tho my mom did call me sun
lots of good advice. I like the story sticks suggestions, Funny though, that nobody mentioned that they are way too acurrate. Certainly worth educating yerself about their application.I'd like to suggest "squares" and not the usually junk and fodder sold to woodbutchers at the discount stores, but higher quality machinists squares. Afterall, squareness is a fundamental concept to any jointery.Next I would suggest a caliper, and although there are vernier calipers available in plastic, for a few dollars more you can be working with steel and reading digitally. So much faster and easier.Other layout tools that are utilitarian are a set of drafting tools. The old tool afficiandos, (of which I am one) will pay many dollars for Stanley or Starret trammel points, while ignoring high precision adjustable drafting beam compasses which go for peanuts on ebay. A good angle attachment for a square is nice to have, and they too go relatively cheap on the "bay" as most folks who use them already have one or four already. You can upgrade from that to a vernier protractor, but expect to pay a lot more. Bevel gauges work for transcribing angles quite effectively, at substantially less cost.So we got length, squareness, angleosity covered so far, but we ain't covered level and plumb, which are easily accomplished with a high quality level (check it before you buy it) and a plumb bob (I don't think the accountants have figured out a way to f**k with gravity yet!)Back again to the story stick, the axiomatic extention to that is the template, which is a whole other story, but basically describes precision fitting.Anyway, that's my two bits to add to yer inquiry.Eric in cowtownIf you can set yer saw fence to 4.5" and cut a piece and "mike" it with yer caliper and find it is 4.500"yer gonna be a happy camper. All else follows from the ability to make accurate measurements, and furthermore to check the accuracy of other tools. Downside? you get to kick yerself in the butt when measurements dobn't add up or work out. Things to avoid? cheap tape measures (too much slop in tip, inaccurate markings) , cheap larger aluminium measuring tools, (too much contraction/expansion with temp variance)
Eric,
You mention, "Next I would suggest a caliper, and although there are vernier calipers available in plastic, for a few dollars more you can be working with steel and reading digitally. So much faster and easier".
That is my experience too, although I am now wary of those electronic digital verniers that are sold. The 6 inch (150mm) one I had was fine for about 2 years but then the electronics went phut. Unfortunately the mechanical scales on the thing, such as they were, were crude and more or less unusable. So that instrument became junk (and it was $60).
I have another 300mm one that was bought as a present. This has worked for 5 years now and is very handy for wider thangs. It also converts metric to imperial at the press of a button, zeros at any point and has a better mechanical scale on it. It has one problem, which is a short battery life; even when switched off it drains the batteries, which are not cheap.
Generally I like the 150mm steel vernier with the mechanical scale (no dial or electronics). It is foolproof, tough and acurate. It is "digital" in the sense that it is metric. I have often wodered how folks cope with them fractional things.
Lataxe, vernier fan
I just can't help noting that there is nowt worse than a "cheap digital vernier caliper" . Not only do they die without so much as a moments notice, but they are prone to telling lies at any time.I just can't help it.
For the normal woodworm I tend to think that yer ordinary steel type caliper without elektrickery is sufficient, but there is a chance of a mis-read as in a senior moment, I believe.
But if one is prone to getting these things as "presents" then one must always specify "Mitituyo" or that Swiss one at all times. Theese are reliable, and the jaws are hardened, so one can scribe lines on steel with them-useful if one is a woodworm today and a metal head tomorrow.
Also, for the fanatical tool collector, of whom we see ample presence here via pictures of hospital operating theatre-like workshops, these fine tools are obligatory, especially when they are displayed nestling in velvet lined cases.(;)Philip Marcou
philip,
I shouldn't wonder if that "Mitituyo" thing doesn't come up when Lataxe is stroking the ladywife. I love dirty talk like that, myself.
As an aside, speaking of measuring,
Q: do you know why women don't make very good woodworkers?
A: Because for thousands of years, men have been telling them that this distance:
/-------/
is eight inches.
Ray
Ray, I am pleased to see that you noted my (mis) spelling of Mitutuyo....
Of course the ladies are now now even more impressed when 8 inches becomes about 20cm. Very versatile, is the metric system.Philip Marcou
philip,
Didn't know it was mis-spelled, as I never heard of Mitushyomama before.
Ray
Ray,
I like competance but there is a sliding scale which is exponential in the same way as that pertaining to the law of diminishing returns. I look for quick ways to competance, which are not always available.
Sometimes I do imagine an alternate past life where I became a woodworker aged 8 and went on to be a master. Of course, it was a life of great adventure and variance - no drudgery. Also, I was paid £100,000 per commission. (This is why that life exists only in my imagination). :-)
So, I tend to be somewhere between conscious incompetant and conscious competant (at best). There are just so many facinating thangs to try to get competant at!
Lataxe, barely able to tie his shoes.
PS I yam quite good at ladywife stroking.
Ray,
I really enjoyed your description of the stages from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence. You are beginning to sound more like "Dr. Phil" than Adam.When I learned how to play the five-string banjo, I used a book by a guy named Peter Wernick. He commented early in the book that you need to learn all of these "licks", and keep practicing and practicing, and one day you are playing and you really surprise yourself. You start playing things that you didn't memorize. The psychologists talk of this as the "chunking" of skills. You start being able to do your skills in sequences which are in the context of the situation. GOOD STUFF.Me, I have different ideas on "Skills". I am not so sure that they build up and get chunked into larger sequences. I know one guy who has taken 14 one-week courses at Marc Adams school, and more one week courses at other schools. I have never seen s single stick of furniture that he has ever built. I believe that he has built up a whole bunch of "piece-parts" skills that he doesn't know how to put together.Bottom line. I recommend that people learn furniture building by building furniture, and not by learning a whole bunch of skills that are not in the context of getting pieces of furniture designed and built. For example, people get hung up on:
- am I sharpening good enough?
- should I get the #4 or the #4 1/2?
- Do I need a shoulder plane or a will a rabbet plane work?
- Should I get the tite-mark or the Veritas marking gauge?
- should I get the Festool or the Fein dust extractor?
- are three micro bevels enough on my chisels?
and on and on and on and onMy belief is that too many beginning and intermediate woodworkers have learned to be "Scared stiff". They are worried that they are not using the right technique, and they haven't bought the right tool, and their design does not incorporate the golden rectangle. They get to "paralysis by analysis". What I like to see in a woodworker is different than "skills". I like to see a "joy of woodworking" -- an excitement about making the project they are working on. Paychologists call this a "need for achievement" as opposed to "a fear of failure". When a woodworker is learning, I want him to learn to be confident in his ability to solve problems. I am not talking about being overconfident. I am not talking about being cocky. I am talking about the quiet confidence that comes with having a sequence of accomplishments that he is proud of. One of my favorite books is Ivan Illich's "Deschooling Society". He wants schools and teachers to teach a student to learn to think for himself, but he fears that too many schools and teachers just take remove all confidence from you, and make you feel like you have to come back to them for even more courses.There is something that goes on Knots that I think is self defeating for new learners -- the newbies read all these threads with 100+ posts on details of microbeveling a plane, and they get confused. I believe we spend too much time on things which make too little difference. Take my message, for instance.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I have been thinking of starting the Ray Pine School for some time now, I like your theory; especially the part about students getting less and less confident and needing more and more classes the more they are taught. Sounds like a plan for success!
When it comes to school, I once had this on the cover of a notebook:
The more you study, the more you learn.
The more you learn, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you can forget.
The more you can forget, the more you do forget.
The more you forget, the less you know.
So, why study?
Ray
Latex you forgot 5.. Me and my pencile nub.. I cannot see thgat well so I move the wood over 1/8 and works fer' me!
but it need not be exactly in the center. !!!!!!!!!!I love that.. What I do sometimes for 'Odd Jobs' Or was that in a Bond movie?Some parts cannot be measured EXACT because of the profile without going through whatever it takes. I just do something like make the outside or inside edge to some dimension and then trim my tenon to it and then 'fit' the 'other' side so it 'FITS'!
When I really need accuracy and precision, I slow down and pick up hand tools. I also use relative dimensioning which means transferring the length of something rather than trying to measure it. Once I have a few parts cut and started, everything that follows is made to fit what already exists.
Its probably not a practical way of woodworking if I was in a production environment but like others have said, when I use a pinch rod, caliper, story stick or even a folding rule with extension bar to transfer the length of something, I don't make mistakes. My workshop and latest projects - last updated March 10, 2007
Paul,
I visited your website. Nice site. Great photos and info. I especially like your jig for making straight edged boards. Keep up the great work, and thanks for sharing it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Its probably not a practical way of woodworking .. I'd say is is not practical but WORKS.. All that counts!
Nice as in GREAT work on your pages!
This is a great subject and discussion, yet it pre-supposes the accuracy of stock preparation to give the reference points in the first place, and therein lies the rub.
With dodgey eyesight and D/Ts when it comes to the marking I have come to a system using pre-determined dimensions (peg board) and transfer punches which enables me to work with less than perfect stock. Blind craftspersons have used such aids for many years, but it is not obligitory to be handicapped in order to benefit from such practices.
My most commonly used layout and measuring tools are a Starrett 4" double square and a Starrett 6" rule. My marking gauge is an old Stanley 65 with a piece of drill rod ground to a knife edge and honed very sharp. It slices through the wood without tearing it, and won't follow the grain. When I need a fine line, I use an exacto knife. I don't need a mortise marking gauge since I now own a mortising machine. I am partial to Starrett tools for measuring and marking. eBay is a good source for Starrett tools. Tom
Dan,
For years I relied on machine tool woodworking where it is possible to make only minimal measurements (basic dimensions really) then rely on the machine tool fences, tool dimensions and other "self-jigging" aspects of such tools to create square and accurate edges, grooves, joints et al.
Once you take up hand tool traditions it becomes clear that a lot more marking out is needed, as it is your hand and eye alone that "jigs" the tools. Suddenly you need all sorts of measurers and markers. But this is part of the hand tool pleasure.
I tried the older style wooden and brass marking gauges of both the single and double pin type. These tend to dance about a bit if the grain grabs the point(s). Rather than sharpen the points into mini-knives (as some folk do quite successfully, I hear) I tried the wheel-based markers.
I now use a basic veritas for single line-marking and one of those Titemark gauges for mortise-marking, using one of the several fixed-width twin-edge wheels they can be mounted with. This approach seems to allow accurate, straight and (when necessary) deep incisions to be made quickly and easily. Two gauges does help as there is much less resetting required.
Titemark are very well made but not cheap; there are Far East clones to be had a lot cheaper and some will take the Titemark mortise cutters.
I also use steel rules and marking knives for types of work needing a line made far from an edge. I have two Sabatier knives, with thick blades, sharpened with one face flat and one beveled, to make a 2 inch edge which comes to a point. There is a left hand and right hand one. These are good for making deeper cuts as they are hefty.
I also use a Blue Spruce marking knife for lighter work like marking out DTs and finger joints. They are slim with a diamond point and easily got into the recesses.
I use a Veritas bevel to set and mark out DT angles and such. I tried a couple of dedicated DT markers but found them a bit fiddley and/or a bit constricting as to angle and such.
A variety of metal engineers squares serve for most checking of right angles and 45 degree angles. Different sizes help when getting the instrument applied to larger or smaller work. The squares seem to be very accurate and less prone to damage than the traditional WW steel/wood ones (although I am still using one of these I've had for ages, despite a couple of cracks in the wood bit - I check it for square regularly).
You might like one of those combination squares, with a steel rule sliding in a 90-45 degree cast arm. I have one but don't seem to use it much as the various engineer's squares work well for me.
The most-used measurement instrument I have is a 150mm steel vernier gauge with an old fashioned differential scale (like old slide rules, if you remember them). It measures accurately to 0.1mm and has no delicate bits to drop off or get damaged. It measures internal and external widths, as well as depths.
Other useful measurers:
* a dial-height gauge for measuring TS or router-bit projection from the tabletop (accurate to at least 0.1mm).
* a Veritas "wedge" that measures gaps (eg between a TS or bandsaw blade and the fence) very accurately (0.1mm).
* a couple of steel tapes for measuring long stuff (get a quality engineers' one rather than one of those modern WW ones with garish colours and lots of gizmos).
* a 1 metre straight edge (used to judge long straight edges or surfaces, such as jointed boards or tabletops.
I probably forgot some other stuff....... :-)
Lataxe the precise.
Lataxe,
There are a couple of Veritas wheel guages. I have the micro adjust. Is the Titemark any better/different?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=49133&cat=1,42936
Otherwise, I'll continue to believe that if LeeValley doesn't have it, I don't need it. :)
Andy
Andy,
I think others have answered the question concerning Veritas and Titemark wheel gauge relative performance. Having two on the go at once is helpful, especially if one is set up to do the mortise marking.
As Philip mentions, them 0.5mm lead draughtsmen pencils are very good for making knifed lines visible. I like to draw one along the knifemark with DTs and M&Ts especially, as this makes them much easier to see and saw to, without making them thicker. Once the knife mark has been made, it will guide the delicate pencil tip with little pressure necessary from the user. (Pressure snaps the skinny things in a trice).
But now I am wondring when that Philip will start to make the marking tools, as well as the planes. He can keep them darts but those lovely wood and brass thangs are making me drool on the keyboard a bit.
Lataxe
Thanks for the insights. What I find interesting is that no one mentioned the set screws or adjusting/setting mechanism in marking tools. It sounds like they are not a major issue. Easy to adjust is nice, but not as bit a deal as one might think? I like the idea of the LV/V wheel gauges. I found myself trying to mark something using a 1/64 mark on the rule the other day and just about could not see what I was doing. When I finally made the mark -- the pencil line was so wide it was worthless. I ended up using a filed nail to make a mark. Clearly not the way to work.Dan Carroll
What I find interesting is that no one mentioned the set screws or adjusting/setting mechanism in marking tools. It sounds like they are not a major issue. Easy to adjust is nice, but not as bit a deal as one might think?
Set screws matter some, but should work smoothly in all quality tools. I haven't seen anyone recommend going to Home Depot and buying the cheapest combination square you can find etc. In low quality tools set screws might be an issue, but I think we all take their smooth operation for granted when we get to levels of very good and superior tool producers.
I like the idea of the LV/V wheel gauges. I found myself trying to mark something using a 1/64 mark on the rule the other day and just about could not see what I was doing. When I finally made the mark -- the pencil line was so wide it was worthless.
One nice thing about many of the marking implements is that they can free you from rule measuring at all. The wheel gauge is a prime example. If I need a score mark the width of an adjoining board for a dovetail, I just set the gauge from the actual board - no need to read or remember any numbers at all!
Dan,
In some tools (like the combination square mentioned) set screws and other adjusters are part of the design and unavoidable. There are some other marking-out tools, such as try squares, that have set screw type adjuster in them. The idea is that if the square goes out of true, you can re-true it with the set screw(s). This is often included as a marketing-plus feature, along with a higher price.
Perhaps I am being paranoid, but when I see these feaatures a little alarm goes off asking, "Why does the design allow the thang to go out of adjustment in the first place"? In other words, building in some "flop"to allow adjustment might sorta create the very problem the adjuster is said to fix.......
Lataxe, looking at the wares suspiciously.
Thanks Lataxe. I am happy with the Veritas. So far, I don't feel the need for two. Just want to know if I'm missing something.
I also use 0.5mm pencils and they work great but not so well on the deck last month...
Andy
I don't have one of theses gauges YET after reading the replies about the Titemark gauges I did a little research.The cheapest and very good quality is from Lee Valley http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=42440&cat=1,42936 their are called the "Wheel Gauge" excellent quality and a lot cheaper the the others.Have fun woodworking but respect your tools
Dan, I made some quick and easy mini scribes and knives using old throwing darts- the steel is hard.
Made the wheeled cutting gauge long before I even heard of Veritas etc.
The single pin marking gauge is made from African Blackwood and is a good indication of climate change-the brass is not always flush.....
My mortice gauge is also African Blackwood but says "London
J. Buck"-date stamp 1896-don't tell Adam.
For most marking lines I use a fine Parker ball point re-fill: supposed to be a heretical practice but the line is always visible and a consistent thickness, and it can't hide when you want to remove it.
If I want to use a pencil then it must a .5mm draughtsman type propelling pen-strong lead and always the same thickness, unlike a damned pencil which is always either lost or broken...
These days those Japanese stainless steel rules are super-especially the non reflective ones-who wants those crummy wooden folding rules?
Dovetail gauge? You can make this like Derek's or just a simple wood one- why mess about with a bevel gauge?
Philip,
I really enjoyed seeing the marking devices you made.
Tell me, do you ever sleep?As a result of watching you and Derek, I have been playing around with making tools. I have recently made a chip carving knife for doing carving on the facades of buildings, and a shoulder knife, also for doing such carving. Actually, that is an overstatement. I didn't make the blades, I bought knives that had the blades that I wanted for about $7 each, and then I removed their handles, and made the handles I wanted and then learned how to attach the blades. Having done that twice, I see that it is rather trivial. So while this has not been a big step forward for humanity, I did get some jollies out of it, and it has given me the confidence to try more such projects. I'll put up photos in a short while, after I put a couple of coats of BLO on the 15" and 35" handles of these knives. The short one is used with both hands. The long one is used with both hands and a shoulder for excellent leverage. But after trying to use the shoulder knife, I I can see why the tool became almost extinct. I found instructions for building them, but not for using them. I need to work on that. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I love the throwing dart scribes-- what a great way to use relics from the time when one could spend hours in a bar drinking beer and telling stories. I remember those times well, it was before l was married. Ah, the time before wives reformed and cured our wayward ways.Dan Carroll
I use my fractional/digital caliper for virtually all measuring and marking functions. Ex: set it at 3 inches; make the mark with the sharp tip of the caliper; connect the marks with straightedege and sharp pencil; perfect. I use it more than I ever thought possible. PMM
I'll take the question as this: If my shop disappeared and I need to reaquire my most useful layout tools, what whould I buy?
Wheel gauge - Lee Valley's versions are excellent and reasonably priced. Tite markers are more expensive and a little more refined perhaps. Either get the job done. I strongly prefer wheel gauges for any number of line drawing tasks such as setting the baseline for dovetails or various lines on mortise and tenons. They are fantastic when squaring and thicknessing / dimensioning stock with planes as well.
Try Square - I love my Incra "Guaranteed Square" (7" model) but others makes are fine too I'm sure. Great for checking the results and for marking.
Starret 6" and 12" combination squares - Excellent and indispensable tools.
Metal dovetail marker - Lee Valley's little aluminum ones or teh saddle versions are reasonably priced. I prefer metal as it withstands marking knives better. Woodjoy and others make nive markers too. I tend to favor the ones that allow marking two faces at once as this save a little time and prevents potential inaccuracies.
Saddle Square - LV's is nice and (as with so many of their tools) reasonably priced. This tool hleps accurately bring a line around the corner from one face to the next, such as when marking out tenon shoulders.
Marking knife - This one probably should have been first. A knife marks lines so much more precisely than even a the sharpest pencil and has the added benefit of providing a physical score that aids in paring if necessary. I like my Blue Spruces, but Knight and many others make good ones. You want it to have a flat side (to allow you to get right up the marker/square/ etc. and a triangle point so that you can cut with either bevel as needed.
4" fractional dial caliper - inexpensive and often useful
6" hook rule - LV make a good one
flat bar straight edge 2 to 4 foot range.
Swing arm protractor - very useful in checking and establishing odd angles
brass set up blocks - find myself using these for all sorts of stuff all the time. They are very useful and inexpensive to boot
Mortise gauges and bevel squares would come next, but I could get by without 'em to start.
Woodpeckers has a bunch of cool marking and measuring tools FWIW:
http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html
http://www.woodpeck.com/incrasquares.html#775
FWIW, you can see most of the tools I mentioned above in several of the pictures at the begining of this album:
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/556711471EleNWD
Edited 9/27/2007 12:30 pm ET by Samson
Edited 9/27/2007 12:38 pm ET by Samson
For the best value-for-money my vote goes to ...
Square: Starrett 6" double square on eBay or the LV version.
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Marking gauge: Here are two, a wheel and pin. I have both the Veritas wheel guage and the Tite-Mark version. Best value is the Veritas with the TM cutter. I found it difficult to get a sharp edge on the Veritas wheel. The TM fits and it a great replacement.
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The other marking gauge I like is a vintage Stanley #65. This automatically lays the pin at the ideal cutting angle. Mine is sharpened like a knife.
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Winding Sticks: An essential tool. Make your own (and if not, Lee Valley sell an aluminium set)
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Marking knife: Another one to make for yourself. I recommend a pencil type, made by Blue Spruce and Chester Tool Works. Or make your own - here is my tutorial: http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/art/markingKnife/markingKnife.asp
One of mine, knife and awl...
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Regards from Perth
Derek
I really like the marking knifes and I have a nice piece or rose wood that would be great. I willlet you know the progress. Dan Carroll
You've covered everything other than the need to be able to see to accurately place marks, read rules, etc. I don't wear glasses... but for this I rely on a magnified visor sold by Lee Valley (and other's I'd imagine). My 56 year old eyes can't work without this invalubable tool!
Marty in Ottawa
It is a real pain -- around 45 the eyes go and there is never enough light or a big enough lens.Dan Carroll
Dan,
I use a draftsmans light (round flourescent bulb w/magnifying glass in center), especially when sharpening. Can be easily positioned for work and easily swung out of the way when not needed.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
DanCC
At 67, I have a real problem seeing the knife marks. I switched to a #3H drafting pencil, the hard lead holds a point better, and fine, visible lines are easy.
I have had the same problem. I still use a knife for careful marking, but then lightly run a 0.5mm pencil through the cut. I can now see it well but still have the accuracy of the knife line when I need it. Others have recommended rubbing the mark with chalk and then brushing it off, but I have never tried it.
Must of the time the lay out is just the set up of a machine, setting the distance from the cutter to the fence or stop. I do use my small squares a lot. I got the 5" Bridge City Square in 95 it was the only one scaled sold at the time. My little one is a 4" Starrett and the 6" is a Union Tool. As for marking knives I have one Its a E.A. Berg and it has the Shark on it but I never use it. It's the only one like it I ever seen, I do my marking with a .5 pencil, it's only woodwork.
John
Glad you are of the same mind!
To my way of thinking we can go round Bills mothers in arriving at a less than satisfactory result, or we can cut out many of the interim stages. I cut to the nitty-gritty, so for example, to cut shoulders on a stile I drill two holes in the tenon ends of the stock and cut on a radial arm saw. The results are shoulders square to each other and I have not touched a square or ruler or marking gauge. Then I cut the cheeks.
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