I just purchased about 60 board feet of black walnut from a local hardwood lumber dealer. The material is a combination of 4x and 5x at randum lengths and widths. Roughly 5-7″ in width by 7-10′ in length. According to my calculations I was charged for more board feet then what I think it should be. My questions is; what is the industry standard for calculating board feet on lumber that is rough? Do they add on an extra 1/2″ or more to the width of what the actual board is? Do they add anything on to the length, or is it rounded off to the foot. At the price of select grade black walnut I am not in the mood to donate more money for it then it is worth.
Any comments are appreciated.
Replies
I think you meant 4/4 and 5/4.
You measure the actual width, round length down to nearest foot.
----
On the other hand some people add a percentage for drying shrinkage or straight line ripping.
----
I have never found it worth while to argue about such practices.
Actually you don't measure the actual width, it goes from 1/2" to 1/2", for example a board 6 and 3/4" wide is measured at 7", one 6 and 3/8" is measured 6".
Theoretically the lumber with widths right on the 1/2" should be measured alternatively up and down.
As far as the length it is rounded DOWN to the nearest foot.C.
Thanks for the information. I had assumed the custom for determining board feet was as you said, but I wanted another opinion before I say anything to them. I most likely will not get anywhere on my last purchase, but in the future I will be right by their side when it comes time to measuring it up.
Pickles,
Are you taking in to account that the 5/4 stock should be multiplied by 1.25 to get the board footage?
Tom
Yes I did. Thanks
I have to make a correction here:
I have bought a lot of lumber over the years and it was always measured the way I described above.
Today on an emergency I had to buy a couple of hundred feet of 6/4 walnut and some 16/4. It was measured from 1/4" to 1/4". ... I guess retail sales are not subject to NHLA rules.C.
NHLA rules only apply if the contract says they apply.
Do you make a contract when you buy retail ?C.
Retailers who sell mostly wholesale often have a contract that includes NHLA rules as the terms.
pickles,
Where I buy my black walnut I pay for width less the odd amount.. (ie a 9 1/2 inch board is 9 inches wide) and all 8 foot 6 inch long bords are sold as 8 foot..
less than 8 foot is free..
Prices are up! The last load I bought cost me a buck a foot!
Frenchy,you suck.
Big Frank,
I'm hurt, why do you say that?
How have I offended you?
French,:-)You didn't offend me - I was indicating my jealousy at your low-low lumber prices. Sorry if that didn't come through.
Oh, Sorry BigFrank,
You need to put my numbers into perspective..
First I buy rough and green at the sawmill.
Second I often take wood that has not been picked up by someone who ordered it. (and get it for such a low price that it is almost like stealing)
Third I have a great relationship with the sawmill owners , one that I have carefully cultivated and nutured since 1998
Fourth I have bought over 40,000 bd.ft of wood from that sawmill thus far..
Fifth,
I buy Mill run. which is boards exactly as they come off the sawmill. About 30% are really flawless nice straight wood without knots flaws or blemishes..
40% is good solid wood with some knots and imperfections.. 10% is pretty well scrap. and the last 10% is the take your breath away beautiful stuff that woodworkers druel over.. OK maybe my numbers are a bit skewed because I have all this burl and fiddleback..
I neeed to dry the wood (it doesn't cost me anything except time)
I need to plane, joint, edge, shape, etc. the wood and that only costs me time and a little bit of electricity.. (oh and should I mention clean up the mess after each operation?)
Finally I need to select where to put each board to it's best effect.. (that's the fun part)
When you buy a few boards at the wood store you are buying wood that has been handled by probably seven differant companies... each has their own costs and markup.. each rejects a few boards as unsuitable..
Frenchy,Yeah, I've been buying wood from a local guy out here, He has good prices but they werent near what you were mentioning.
BigFrank
There could be several reasons for that..
One if you are in a location where say cherry or walnut need to be hauled in you have dramatic frieght costs I don't have..
Second he could be too small a sawmill or too large, either one will command a premium all out of proprtion to real world costs..
Third Your volume could be too small to be worthy of the great deals..
For example how many bd.ft. a year does he sell to the pallet mills, the railroads, pulp mills, and etc? that should give you and idea of his markets..
Fourth he could be greedy and instead of selling to you at wholesale he's selling at retail..
tell me about how many bd.ft. a year does he saw? Where is he located?
Would you like me to look up sawmills in your area (That will take a great deal of time and totally dependant on my next visit to the sawmill).
Frenchy,Thanks for your interest in the matter, but you really needn't bother. His prices aren't bad at all, and I certainly don't buy the sort of volumes that you are talking about. At any rate. thanksFrank
I've never seen a quote standard that everybody adhears to. The way I do is, develop a relationship with a supplier. The first time I buy an amount of lumber at a specific price, I inquire how they calculate BF. I buy the wood and then determine what I think it should be (board feet total). I then didivde the total cost (bottom line) by the BF I think it should have been and there is what I consider the bf cost. It may be higer or lower than actual quoted figure. If I feel that bf cost is resonable, I'm ok. Most of the guys I've done business with takes that widest part of the board and if its rough its actual size i.e. 4/4 or 5/4 use that as measurement x acutal length. If the wood is f2s and already 1" thick finished, I am charged as though it were 5/4. I'm paying for the finishing he did. Again I'm ok with that. My latest supplier consistantly gives me more BF than he bills(as I would calculate it). I will not go looking for another supplier for that reason. If I pay him cash, he even throws in a free board here and there. If you think you are getting a bum deal go find another supplier.
"The first time I buy an amount of lumber at a specific price, I inquire how they calculate BF. I buy the wood and then determine what I think it should be (board feet total). I then didivde the total cost (bottom line) by the BF I think it should have been and there is what I consider the bf cost."That is very important when buying live edge stock. Or stock where sap wood is not usable.
This kind of problem is perpetuated by the ignorant sellers who know nothing about how hardwood lumber is graded and tallied and lie to their customers. They lead their customers to believe that they are smarter than the seller who sells to them. I worked for the two largest sellers in the US who supply the major portion of retailers. In my days of grading and management I found that about 80% of the retailers and wholesalers are cheating their customers on tally alone.
After I left the hardwood business some years later I moved and bought some hardwood from a company on the west coast. When they sent the load I thought it seemed as though they had given me more than what I paid for. As usual I tallied the lumber. It was about 10% over what I had requested. So I got about ten percent for free. When I called the manager, he was insulted that I called his attention to it. He basically told me that I did not know how to tally lumber. What he did not realize is thta I had graded lumber for a living and had graduated from the NHLA school in Memphis. So I asked him to get out his grade book and told him what page to turn to. He did not like that too well because I called attention to his ignorance of the rules. After talking with him for awhile I realized that their company block tallies lumber. They measure the width and height of the pack and then tries to determine the average length. They do the same thing with a small amount of lumber with each customer. According to the NHLA ruels each piece of wood is to be tallied and then the grade is determined on the basis of the tally.
All hardwood in America is graded and inspected using NHLA rules. For a board to be called 8 feet in length it must meet 8 foot in length. It cannot be 7"11-15/16". All lumber is tallied to the nearest square foot on the surface and then the total of the square footage is multiplied times the rough thickness. For example if a board was 3" X 4" X 8' it would have 9 board feet. The surface would measure 3 square feet. 3 X 3 = 9. If the board measured 2" x 4" X 8' it would be tallied as 3 square feet and the board footage would be 6.
Hardwood lumber is graded using the cutting unit method. It is done on the basis of the square footage on the surface. A cutting unit is 1 inch wide by one foot long. If a board has a 4' surface measure it must yield 40 cutting units in one cut of a minimum of 4" x 5' or 3" x 7".
If you want to get a perfect board then get a one common board which measures 1' on the surface. It must be a perfectly clear board. A one common board of 1' surface measure is the best board you can get.
The NHLA rules are posted at http://nhla.com/inspection.asp?userid=
Thanks for the reply.
"All hardwood in America is graded and inspected using NHLA rules."You might read ARTICLE XII, the Footnote following Section 2:"This Code is binding between buyer and seller only when it is specifically stated in the contract that it shall govern."(You might also read 2.12.1.4 which covers retail measurement.)
Edited 8/19/2006 12:10 am by GHR
"All hardwood in America is graded and inspected using NHLA rules."You might read ARTICLE XII, the Footnote following Section 2:"This Code is binding between buyer and seller only when it is specifically stated in the contract that it shall govern."(You might also read 2.12.1.4 which covers retail measurement.)
______________________________________________________________________________That section covers disputes not stealing. The NHLA will only inspect lumber when there is an agreement between buyer and seller to accept the NHLA findings. Also remember that many cases have arisen and the court uses the NHLA rules to settle them. Pages 108-110 and Article X govern an inspection and reinspection. The only time there is a claim is when the inspector find a difference of 4% in money value. Otherwise there is no claim. For someone to be off 4% in money value is doing a lousy job of grading. I once graded some lumber sent to us and found it to be off way more than that. Bad enough that the seller was not happy with us and sent a truck to pick it up. We never received any poor lumber again. The NHLA is not an enforcement agency. They are an association of lumber businesses. They cannot enforce anything. The US courts do use their rules to decide a case in the courts. Maybe I missed something but I thought I stated exactly what 2.12.1.4 said. That practice has been around since the rules first came into being in 1948.Many court cases have been settled using the NHLA rules. In fact when I was a student at the grading school im Memphis there was one then where the NHLA was asked as an expert in the case.
You use the words cheat and steal. Please read the following again:"This Code is binding between buyer and seller only when it is specifically stated in the contract that it shall govern."You seem to not understand when NHLA grading and measurment rules are applicable.
"This Code is binding between buyer and seller only when it is specifically stated in the contract that it shall govern."Try reading the context of when that quote is applicable. What you are saying is much like going to a gas station which sells of the .9 gallon measurement and another on .89 gallon measurement and another on the 1 gallon measurement. You do not understand when NHLA rules are applicable. In every court case involving hardwoood lumber disputes the dept. of weights and measures uses the NHLA rules. While I was in school years ago they were involved as an expert in a court cases between two parties. One did not know the rules and the other did. I know exactly when the rules are applicable. I am a graduate of the school of the organization that makes the rules. Try reading the quotes you gave me in context. How much lumber have you graded and have many disputes have you bend involved in?
Edited 8/19/2006 10:37 am by gb93433
The NHLA rules have never been part of any contract under which I purchased lumber.The usual wholesale/retail contract I have is: the lumber I am looking at is the lumber I am buying/selling. It is usual for a small mill to estimate bdft and grade rather than be as precise as the rules would lead one to believe.
I worked in a place that sold over 15 million board feet each year. Some of it went overseas and every stick of domestic lumber was bought and sold according to NHLA rules. When I was at the NHLA Inspection school some of the students were from Europe to learn how to tally and grade lumber. My experience has been that the little mom and pop mills do not know how to grade. One of the places I worked for bought a lot of lumber from them. We never went on their tally and grade. We bought on our tally and grade. We had trained graders. They did not. Anybody who buys and sells domestic hardwood lumber commercially in the US goes by the NHLA rules. The NHLA has made the rules since 1948.
Edited 8/19/2006 7:22 pm by gb93433
You are simply wrong.Perhaps you should speak with the NHLA.
Why would I want to talk to the NHLA when I graduated from their inspection school in Memphis? I worked for two companies who were a part of the NHLA.
"their company block tallies lumber. They measure the width and height of the pack and then tries to determine the average length. " Is it not possible that, from a practical standpoint, the company owner is saving labor costs by doing a block-tally, erring in favor of the buyer and pricing accordingly? No way to know if that's what he was doing without receiving several loads from him, but it seems reasonable to take that approach if it saves on payroll and the buyer consistently gets at least what he pays for and often more.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The supplier told me he block tallied it. That kind of practice is against the NHLA rules and if I had reported him he would have been in hot water with the dept. of weights and measures. The supplier lost about ten percent of what he should have made on me. That is a lot in the wholesale lumber business. The man I worked for years ago was the person who was pushing for the rules about retail and selling on a net tally. Looks like he got it done.Edited 8/19/2006 10:32 am by gb93433
Edited 8/19/2006 2:45 pm by gb93433
"Is it not possible that, from a practical standpoint, the company owner is saving labor costs by doing a block-tally, erring in favor of the buyer and pricing accordingly?"I owuld say not likely. I can tally lumber faster than two men pulling it. The company I was referring to does not have a lumber rule for their employees to measure lumber. When I was good at grading I could grade and tally about 6 boards per minute.
We sell A LOT of hardwood lumber in the rough. It is ALL SELECT or better and sold by the board foot. We use a BUILTMORE STICK (sp?) which has a series of scales along the length of the stick. Each scale is for one length of lumber (9'-16') The 12' scale is in inches and the stick is placed ACROSS the board and the scale read at the edge. It is very accurate. There is some wiggle room where I work for boards that are less than desirable. For example: at 4/4 thickness, a twelve foot board of mahogany that is nine inches wide has a serious crook (a little more than 1") and some wane at one end on the face. Normally this would be a nine bf piece of lumber. The customer sees our pile is low and doesn't want to wait for our next unit of 2500 bf to come. He says it's for a boat and he doesn't want to glue up a clear board to get his width. I could care less about his (or his customer's) boat, BUT he buys lumber from us on a monthly basis for all his jobs so we cut him some slack this time and charge him for 8bf. He is a good customer that doesn't want to pay for the OBVIOUSLY extra wood on this board that HE wont be able to use. It is still a select board and we have every right to charge him our price, but we'll keep the customer rather than make $5 on this day.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled