There have been numerous discussions here on the acquisition of the Porter Cable and Delta brands by Black & Decker back in 2004. I never thought much about it — tools are tools, and someone has to make them — but I find it interesting that the ads for each in the current FWW (pgs. 12-13 and 114-115) are the same. Same layout, same image style, same typeface, same copy (with some brand/model cut and paste), same tag line. I doubt that money is so tight at B&D that they are trying to save on agency fees, so it sure looks like they have a brand merge plan going on. I’ve never been a fan of the concept — remember GM of the 70’s and 80’s when a Pontiac was an Olds was a Chevy was a Buick was a Cadillac (the Cimarron was a Cadillac — riiiiight)? Any of you marketing types, or anyone out there with some thoughts on where this is all going? And does it even matter?
Mike
Replies
Rockwell did the same thing in the 70's. They took Delta and PC and made everything they could Rockwell. I have some older Rockwell Sanders that are PC design rebadged. When Pentair took control of Rockwell Power tools they broke out PC and marketed to woodworking professionals. Delta was always a name that could stand on its own. I don't think its a brand merege where one will disappear, but B&D is tring to tie hem back together. I think B&D wants PC out of the Construction biz, and into the woodworking biz. DeWalt is king of the hill for the construction tradepeople, so they are aiming PC to be diversified. I expect some more remodeled tools, like they did with the dovetail jig, in the line. Many PC designs are 20+ years old. New RO sanders, maybe a guide rail circ saw...
I was just at the Woodsmith Store this past week and as it happened they were holding what was not unlike a woodworking show of sorts but on a much smaller scale, there were representatives there from all the different manufatcurers....ie JET,FORREST,DELTA,PC ect ect. I have been using a rather cheap Skil Brand router that gave up the fight after less that one year of service, so I was in there to purchase a new router, anyway, the PC representative, who was standing right next to the Dewalt rep....oddly enough Black and Decker was absent (as they should have been in a dedicated woddworking store) but the PC as well as the Dewalt rep were both telling anyone that would listen that even though the three brands are all under the same umbrella they had seen the different product lines suffer from quality issues as well as cross marketing, he stated that they now were moving toward the position of returning the quality to the PC line and more specific marketing like the previous post said they want B&D to be known as the weekend DIY brand, Dewalt to be known as the rugged construction git-r-done tools and PC to move back into the woodworking shop and away from the jobsite. Marketing and quality will tell in the end but it seems that they are trying to appeal to their different targets in different ways.Just my thoughts, take them for what they are worth - about 2 cents
For me it's not about the brand. They can put whatever lable on the too that they want. I want a quality tool that will do the job that I need it for at a reasonable cost (doesn't mean cheap). I think far too much is emphasis has been placed on the brand of tools and not enough on quality and purpose. If, in fact, PC tools will actually be designed to do the job that a woodworker needs them for then I'll look more seriously at them. Frome what I've seen so far that doesn't seem to be the direction they are going.
<<They took Delta and PC and made everything they could Rockwell>>try,I've heard conflicting reports on the quality of the Rockwell era tools. I worked briefly in a shop that had a Rockwell Unisaw and it was mostly OK. I just question how much merging and pulling apart a brand can handle without suffering. I guess we'll find out. I'm not sure why I even care about things like this, but I hate to see a venerable brand fade away or change to something it never was -- like putting the DeWalt brand on a drill.Mike
Having been involved in several mergers from the corporate side, there are several things that need to be kept in mind:
There have to be cuts and reductions to get the cost savings to justify the cost of the merger, particularly since any increase income due to the merger will take several years to really be realized.
There will be a lot of uncertainty among the troops waiting to see who the shoe drops on.
Even after this is finished there will still be a lot of "us vs. them." My experience is that it takes about 5 years to finally disappear no matter what the industry. I have never seen senior management or the board take this into consideration.
The best people usually find it very easy to get competitive offers and will prefer to control their own destiny, even it is only a lateral move.
Historically, the mergers do not pay off for the investors until a long way down the road unless one of the companies is about to go under and the other is the "white knight".
Edited 10/8/2007 10:28 am ET by dherzig
"There will be a lot of uncertainty among the troops waiting to see who the shoe drops on."Employees in merged or acquired companies are treated like mushrooms:
Management keeps them in the dark, shovels manure on them and then cuts them off.
BruceT
Edited 10/8/2007 11:17 am ET by BruceT999
If you look deeply into the history of B&D, you will find they buy a company or product (Elu, Master Power, DeWalt, Workmate, etc), pick them dry of their patents, market share and necessary personnel/assets and dump the rest.
A classic example is Master Power out of Solon Ohio - B&D bought them because of their air tool experience. They sucked the wind out of them, then a couple of B&D execs got a "sweetheart deal" to buy them. Fortunately, the execs were able to put the business back to together sufficiently to Master Power to the Cooper Tool Group. Everybody made out except the poor folks who bought Master Power tools - they are left high and dry. And just like all the folks who bought B&D Industrial tools thinking they would last a lifetime - well B&D stopped supporting tools over 10 years old. Even early DeWalt models (the portable tools that is) are no longer supported. And that is happening to Delta and Porter Cable!
ETG,
I agree but you forgot to throw in Emglo in the mix... same thing has happened
You are right - and there are more examples. One that really bothers me is the Baldwin Hardware acquisition - you can already see more "consumer oriented" products appearing!
Mike, the three market split already mentioned is what I hear from my tool supply vendors and it will mean the shifting of some lines in the construction and shop lines. One will be the PC portable band saw is going to get a yellow coat.
Will it make a difference ? Probably not as they, BD, have the capacity to perform -unless they are not being truthful. There is the competition for them to fret over and the fact that we all talk to each other -rumor travels at least at the speed of light-and make our own choices.
My concern is customer , parts, support. It took weeks to get some correct unisaw parts from the DeWalt cs in MD and had to make them give me the Tenn phone # to talk with a delta tech. I recently picked up the PC 310 commercial lam trimmer(I finally got pi$$ed off with the poor depth control and quality of the tall asparagus can type. I spent 3 hrs. on the internet and phone trying to get the bottom guide kit but finally a great guy in the dewalt Texas cs found one in LA. , I called La and it shipped in 5 days but it shouldn't be that hard. It looks like they are trying but I feel that they consolidated cs to save $$(the bookkeepers strike again) and trashed the knowledge base at delta/pc. Paddy
btw- the cimarron was a wide nova, ya think?
PADDY,Sorry to hear about your customer service problems. That can be so frustrating. Good customer service does as much to strengthen a brand as all the rest of the marketing stuff.On the Cimarron: as I remember, it was a Chevy Cavalier with leather seats.Mike
Mike,
I'll be at The Specialty Tools & Fasteners Distributors Association (STAFDA) convention in a few weeks in Nashville. They'll have their booths there. I'll see if there's any new info and let you know what I find out. I'm curious myself what B+D is planning on doing with the lines.
Mike
Edited 10/6/2007 8:50 pm ET by mvflaim
Thanks, Mike. Keep us posted.Mike
Where it goes kind of depends. When B&D bought DeWalt from AMT, DeWalt was mainly building industrial tools, and B&D left them to it. That worked fine for nearly 15 years. Then B&D ran a survey on the most respected companies among professionals and DeWalt came out #1. B&D ran this survey 'cause they were losing market share and wanted to copy the big dog's tactics. Of course, they discovered they owned the "big dog."
After a few iterations, they did parlay DeWalt into a big player in the homeowners' market while not losing too much market share amongst professionals, but DeWalt quality basically declined to about the level of the former B&D "professional" line.
So. They've acquired Porter-Cable and will probably leave it alone as long as it continues to be profitable and as long as the main line of business continues to be profitable. If the latter changes, they'll probably rebrand some of the B&D units to be PC, and things will go downhill from there.
<<they'll probably rebrand some of the B&D units to be PC, and things will go downhill from there>>grpphoto,Hope things don't turn out that way, but I guess we'll see. I just don't recall ever seeing identical product advertising for two separate brands before.Mike
You ever see This old house or the New Yankee Workshop?
Delta and Pc have had similar ads on each of those shows in my area for at least a decade. Same company (Pentair) tied them together whenever possible. Even older delta mag ads had PC stuff in the photo shoot.
I noticed that the old biesemeyer site, http://www.biesemeyer.com, which had a nice outlet/clearance page, has been taken down.
Danny
Maybe B+D sold it. I noticed the new Craftsman cabinet saw now come with the biesemeyer fence.
When B&D bought DeWalt, they did two things - they diminished the DeWalt name and put on a large B&D hexagon logo - and sales went way down. So they quickly went back to the DeWalt logo and diminished the B&D hexagon.
B&D has a history of reducing manufacturing costs - that means subtlety "taking something out of the machine". For DeWalt the second thing they was more plastic parts and a hot rolled steel radial arm instead of a cast one on the 10 inch machines - while Rockwell Delta continued with a cast arm.
DeWalt was resurrected in the early nineties because B&D had massive debt from the Emhart acquisition. B&D's chairman, Nolan Archibald needed cash in a hurry. They saw the Industrial line of B&D made money, but not enough. By taking the Industrial/Tradesman line and reducing costs but keeping the same price point and re-branding it as if it were a new product, DeWalt was created as a money generator.
Quality products like the B&D Holegun with triple gear reduction drives went down the tubes. And many B&D executives disagreed with Archibald and left during the nineties - today B&D is a consumer products company, not a tool leader that many think. They are not first to market - they buy their technology (Workmate, Elu routers, etc.). They just "allocated" the Porter Cable orbital recip saw patents to their machines.
The real crusher for PC is that B&D "killed" PC's first born - the 503 worm drive belt sander. That was PC's first product and pictures can be found of it in some old catalogues - and last version of the 503 was solidly built, just like the first one ever made.
In B&D's defense, most builders and woodworkers don't need the industrial strength machines of old. Today's homes use spf, a far cry from the fir and yellow pine used 50 years ago. Wen Tools - remember them? - a low price tool for the discount stores - they do just as well in today's workplace. The few people who really need the heavy machines already own solidly built old ones or buy specific products from Milwaukee and other.
PC/Delta has been on a roller coaster ride the last decade or so. Delta moved to PC's Jackson facility in 1999 and irrc there were disruptions in parts availabilty. Pentair later closed the Delta Tupelo, MS manufacturing plant and moved some of the operation to Jackson and some overseas. The Shopmaster line did much to hurt Delta's reputation. When B&D bought PC/Delta the service centers were consolidated (really fun trying to get parts), parts moved to Maryland (consolidated with DeWalt parts), PC assembly was moved to Mexico to a DeWalt plant. Just recently Biesemeyer closed it's Arizona plant and moved to Jackson. Not sure what the future holds- there's new stuff in the pipeline but for me the jury is out till things settle down. I don't believe the 890 routers measure up to the old 690. The new 371K belt sander is a winner, and the new drill presses look promising- if they ever show up. I don't feel the loyalty I once did. First used a Unisaw in school back in the sixties. Sold my old contractor saw to friend I worked for in 1986- it's still running strong. Still run PC sanders (352,362, 333, 371) and routers (690, 100, 310, 7518) - still great but some of the stuff I've dealt with like my brother's miter saw and planer were absolute junk with little help to make them right. If all goes well I'll be setting up a new shop next year. Twenty five years ago it would have without a doubt been Delta gray .............. now I'm not so sure. Reminds me a little of Detroit and automobiles- they squandered much of their hard earned reputation and once lost, very hard to get back.
Edited 10/9/2007 11:09 am ET by jc21
<< I don't feel the loyalty I once did>>jc21,This is what happens when a brand is continuously merged, unmerged, consolidated, rebadged etc., etc. It seems many of the old quality brands are no longer made by manufacturers, but distributed by marketers -- then sold and distributed by other marketers who outsource the manufacturing to the latest, greatest low-cost labor center. There seems to be less and less a sense that tools (or other products) are designed and produced by companies that are proud to put their name on them because they are superior. This is certainly not true across the board, but more and more common. Mike
For Canadians, Delta gave up on quality long before the merge. I bought a 14" BS in 2001, part of the "2000 Professional" series with a guarantee for life (!) At the time, their ads were trumpeting "Made in America." The whole damn thing was Chinese, down to the motor, and metric, so that most after-market products wouldn't fit on it. The riser set had to be ordered from the US, and took so long (3 mths) to arrive that it might as well have come from China. Oddly enough, the actual machine fared better than a made in America planer of roughly the same vintage, whose plastic casing split after the first use. Misleading advertising, predatory pricing, lousy service, I won't miss them. Jim
Jim,
Why not write a "nice" (and I mean "nice" letter to Delta which tells your story and has photos of the problems. Mention the lifetime guarantee. Ask them what they will do. Tell them that if they fix the problems to your satisfaction, that you would be happy to be a part of their advertising campaign.Something like that is not guaranteed to work. But what do you have to lose. You can even tell them that if they fix the problems, they can use you in their future ad campaigns, or something like that.You may get new tools, or something else.
You haven't got much to lose.
It only takes a short time to write a good letter.
If you want help with the letter, write a draft and send it to me, and I'll send you a draft revision.Hope that helps,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, friendly Mel, thanks for the offer, but I think I'll pass. With the best will in the world -- which I doubt Delta has -- you can't change Chinese metric into US Imperial. I spoke (nicely) to a couple of their reps at wood shows at the time, and got nowhere. Maybe I'm a masochist, but I believe in paying for my mistakes anyway. Makes me less likely to repeat them. Then there's the ethical question of offering to advertise for someone you know sells junk. Caveat emptor. Though caveat venditor works too: I bought my last machine from Steel City.
Jim
Jim,
Thank you for the nice words, but my recommendation was not to be friendly for its own sake. My reasons were purely selfish -- pragmatic -- whatever works. I am not a complainer. I don't complain unless I really believe it is worth responding to, and even then, I am not interested in "making a complaint", but rather, I am interested in what I can get out of it. I have found that being "nice", or rather "sounding nice" gets you in the door faster than "sounding nasty". But once you are in the door, you have to be perceived as not only polite and reasonable, but also very persistent.I have tried this twice in 64 years, and it worked both times. I found the phone number for the headquarters of the company, and I asked to speak to the secretary of the President or of the CEO. Secretaries are VERY powerful people. I explained in two sentences what my problem was and I ASKED THE SECRETARY FOR HER ADVICE. Read that as "I was sucking up to the nice lady." In both cases, the secretary gave me the name of a person who is on the staff of the President or CEO whose job is to "take care of business". These folks are generally up and comers whose job is to keep things smooth. You cannot get to such a person by going up the chain from the customer service department. If you get the secretary of the CEO's assistant angry, you will get nowhere. If you are very nice and insure you let them know how important they are to you, you are more likely to get a good result.I didn't dream up this approach. I read about it. It worked for me twice. I guess you now know that I am not a nice guy. I am a pragmatic guy.
:-)
Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The quality of B&D / DeWalt products has been in decline for a while and I fear this will hold true for Delta/PC now. (And Delta has been going down hill for a while on it's own)
I bought my dad one of the first 14.4 T grip drills in (I think) 1995 or 96?, well a LONG time ago (for a cordless drill) and it went up in smoke this past summer, that is one large addition and a lot of work on the new house plus a ton of general work in the mean time. He bought a new version of this 2 years ago and we hardly used it (it never felt as nice in the hand for some reason, and the damn bits would fall out as the chuck sucked) but in the last few months we have had to use it (after the other died) but we have not done much with it, and I noticed that it is starting to do the "stink O death" that electrical motors due. So it lasted a fraction of the time of the old one, was more of a problem to start with, was a cheaper feel, and did almost none of the work of the first one and yet it is (apears) to be only going to make it a few months longer (and thus years shorter life). And dont get me started on the live of the batteries, the new ones are not lasting as well as the old ones did.
Go fgure. So anyone have a suggestion for a new cordless drill? :)
Oh and I just picked up a little Boshe (sp?) tiny driver that is about as powerfull as the 14.4 (new tech on the driver I will admit)
I just wish that Steal City had been available about 6 months sooner, and I would have a lot less Delta in the new shop.
Doug Meyer
" So anyone have a suggestion for a new cordless drill? "
I'm partial to Makita cordless- been using a 14.4 NiMH drill for 5 plus years and added an impactdriver to it last year. I like to stay with the same type battery/charger- no fun on a jobsite with different types/brands of batteries/chargers. If I was starting from scratch I'd probrably go with Mak's lithium ion line. !8v power in 12v size and longer run times.
"So anyone have a suggestion for a new cordless drill? :)"JC is right on in recommending the Makita 18V LIon. I bought the drill/driver in combo kit with impact driver. One case, two tools plus charger and two batteries.Drill driver has three modes (drill, hammer drill and driver) and three speeds, 18V power at same weight as my Milwaukee 14.4, so I can actually use the built-in belt hook.Impact driver has unbelievable torque at about half the weight.
BruceT
Seems these days it's more about marketing (something B&D is good at) than the design and manufacture of a tool- a "if you can't dazzle them with brialliance, baffle them with bs" sort of mentality. In the mere mortal price range the only real differences in much of the stationary equipment seem to be paint color and service.
Mike,
You have gotten some great responses on the history of mergers in the woodworking tool industry. Stop and Think. Every one of those that were mentioned, happened after:
1) women began to show their ankles on the beach.
2) people began touching while they danced ( the waltz), and
3) they began putting flouride in the water.
What is the world coming to?
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
<<1) women began to show their ankles on the beach.>>Mel,You've really got this ankles on the beach thing on your mind lately. Perhaps you should stay at NASA and keep your mind on your work and think only pure thoughts.Mike
Mike,
OK, I have gotten over seeing women's ankles on the beach. Now what can we do about the reduced quality that is emanating from some merged companies?What say we morph Knots into a UNIFIED WHOLE - a group of people who are of one mind - to make great furniture using great tools. And what if we become a franchised organization one of whose goals is to insure quality output by toolmakers. We would have a special group of people who are given the power to make mutually beneficial agreements with toolmakers. For this job, we need a few people with whom we all agree all the time. Of course the three people on the committee will have to agree all the time too. I suggest Adam Cherubini, Larry Williams and Lataxe.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled