Replies

1. 
   jackiechan | Mar 28, 2005 02:38am | #1

   Alan,

   When I use electrolysis to remove rust on old planes (I collect Type 1 and Type 2 Millers Falls planes), I leave it in the tank until the bubbles stop.  The surface of the water will look like toxic waste, but its not dangerous.

   I've enclosed a before and after photo of a Miller Falls 14 (1940's).  The plane is equivalent to a Stanley #5.  No sand paper was used to clean the plane - just a little ultra fine (white) Scotchbrite.

   I re-Japaned the body after the clean up.

    

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/27/2005 7:40 pm ET by Jackie Chan

   
1. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 28, 2005 03:09am | #2

   What equipment do you use to accomplish your electrolysis?  Got a photo of your setup?

   Thanks,

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   jackiechan | Mar 28, 2005 03:36am | #3

   I use an old Sears 12 volt battery charger, a plastic tub (the kind for clothing storage), a scrap piece of angle iron, some sticks of scrap wood, water, and Arm & Hammer Super Soda Wash.  I had everything but the Soda Wash.

   I bent the angle iron to surround the tool in the water, with an 8" section sticking out of the water.  Electrolysis works on the principal of line of sight - surrounding the tool with the scrap iron ensures the greatest amount of electrolytic action.  The iron sits on some sticks of scrap wood to keep it off the bottom of the tub.  The tool is submerged in the water and the negative clip from the battery charger is clipped to it.  The positive clip is attached to the piece of angle iron sticking out of the water.  The washing soda is poured in around the tool (approx. 1/4 cup).

   After everything is set up, then plug in the battery charger.  The electrolytic action will start immediately as evident from the bubbles produced (like a carbonated drink).

   I'll take a photo of my set up and post it tomorrow.Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

1. 
   MarkRD | Mar 28, 2005 03:44am | #4

   Sounds interesting. Basically a high current DC setup. What is the amperage on the battery charger? (watts, amp hours).I've got tons of small AC/DC transformers and I wonder if any of them will put out the current that your battery charger puts out.MarkMeasure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

   Edited 3/27/2005 8:45 pm ET by Mark

1. 
   jackiechan | Mar 28, 2005 04:01am | #5

   "What is the amperage on the battery charger? (watts, amp hours)."

   I believe it is a 12 volt, 10 amp charger (I'll double check when I'm in the shop tomorrow).  The unit is close to 40 years old, but performs flawlessly.Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

2. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 28, 2005 04:03am | #6

   Basically the same set up I have been using.  One of my questions has been how long to leave a tool in the solution.   I still have a lot to learn.

   Thanks for the info.

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   jackiechan | Mar 28, 2005 05:32am | #9

   One of my questions has been how long to leave a tool in the solution. 

   The Millers Falls No.14 in the pictures underwent approx. 22-26 hours of electrolysis.  About half way through, I pulled the plane out of solution and wiped it down with a clean rag to check its progress.  Because each tool may have a different amount/depth of rust, and actual metal surface area, the length of the bath time will vary. 

   I let the tool stay in solution until there is little to almost no bubbles being produced.  As soon as the plane is pulled out of the water, it is dried as best as possible with a clean rag, and then placed in a preheated (kitchen) oven, set to 200 degrees for 15-18 minutes.  This ensures that any residual water is leached out of the metal.  As soon as the plane is cool enough, I mask off all of the parts of the (blue painters tape) that won't be Japanned, and after a final dry surface scrub, Japan the remaining body.  When that is set, I'll wipe the exposed metal parts with Boshield as a protectant.Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

2. 
   Lilshaver | Mar 28, 2005 05:52am | #10

   I've done a lot of etching of steel, aluminum, copper, and brass using galvanic corrosion. Then I always connect the positive (anode) lead to the object being etched and the negative lead to "ground" (usually a sheet of copper). Can you tell me why you use the opposite hookups of neg & positive? I don't doubt that it works, I'm wondering what is going on that's different from our two processes.By the way, for small jobs I use an "Electroplater." Basically it's a DC power source, variable up to 10 amps. For a big job, I've used a TIG welder.......90 amps at about two volts. It looks wicked but is safe.......I think......I'm not gonna stick my hand in there to find out. The bubbles are hydrogen gas. Yes, it will burn.Thanks,
   Jeff

3. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 28, 2005 06:25am | #11

   I'll be eager to hear what he says too, but I have always done the same.  Negative to the tool.

   Alan - planesaw

4. 
   Castlewerks | Mar 29, 2005 08:55pm | #14

   Dan,Side question for you -- what product do you use for re-Japanning the planes?Best Regards,Michael

5. 
   jackiechan | Mar 30, 2005 02:21am | #15

   Michael,

   There are a few different approaches to re-japanning a plane.  The traditional methods uses Asphaltum, amber, rosin, boiled linseed oil, and turpentine.  This method includes heating the tool a number of times in an oven.

   What's truly needed is a lacquer that is as resilient as it is tough.  An oil based lacquer with a high alkyd resin content, when laid on in multiple thin layers, provides a surface that is as good looking as it is tough.  Since I use the planes I collect (Type 1 and Type 2 Millers Falls), and am not worried about possibly altering their perceived market value, I have no problem using a nontraditional method.

   Believe it or not, I use Rustoleum Professional (spray) (a crushing blow to traditionalists).  This is not the usual spray paint.  It is specifically designed for re-coating tools, and for applications where the painted surface will be exposed to a rough industrial environment.  It has a high alkyd resin content.  The Millers Falls No.14 that I posted earlier in this thread, was coated with 7 coats of Rustoleum Professional High Gloss Black.  I achieve the look and durability that I demand of my tools, while achieving the same result as the traditional formula without mixing and oven time (i.e. the heating and cooling of the formulas with its rosin and asphaltum).

   If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!

    

    

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   Edited 3/29/2005 7:37 pm ET by Jackie Chan

6. 
   Castlewerks | Mar 30, 2005 04:55pm | #16

   Dan,Thanks for the thorough response!! I don;t care about the market value of the tools either, as I am a user not a collector. I have a few planes in particular that were my Grandfather's that I'd like to clean up a bit more than I already have -- I removed the rust via electrolysis about a year and a half ago and did the usual fettling, but stopped short of cleaning up the jappanning).Funny you should mention the Rustoleum, I was thinking along those lines or perhaps a high heat engine paint, figuring that would be resiliant....I've seen some arcane recipes for traditional japanning, but it seemed like overkill.Thanks again,--M

7. 
   jackiechan | Mar 31, 2005 03:28am | #17

   M',

   If you use the Rustoleum, make sure its the Rustoleum Professional - it comes in the chrome colored can.  Its the only one in their line that has the high Alkyd Resin content, which is key to refinishing a plane.

   You can use some 320 - 400 grit wet/dry paper to feather back the hard edges that any chipped japanning may have left.  This will give a nicer final look once the paint is dry.

   Before you spray any paint, screw some sacrificial screws into all of the open holes.  This will keep the spray out of the threads - very important.  Also be sure to tape off all of the metal on metal rubbing surfaces - specifically where the frog slides on the plane body when adjusting it.  Tape it off, spray, and just peel it off with an xacto blade just before the paint dries.

   If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   Edited 3/30/2005 8:41 pm ET by Jackie Chan

8. 
   Castlewerks | Mar 31, 2005 07:28pm | #18

   Thanks again for the advice.--M

9. 
   TonLoc | Mar 31, 2005 10:08pm | #19

   I have created, with great success a durable black finish with a VERY deep gloss.

    I heat the object to approximately 80 Deg C (176 F)  then spray with High temp FLAT black spray paint.  I wait a day then reheat and spray a clear high gloss coat over the black. Awesome- very tough finish- ready to use the next day

2. 
   PlaneWood | Mar 28, 2005 04:13am | #7

   I responded to Alan by Email, but for the rest of you, I crank the amperage up to about 0.1 amp (100 milliampers) per sq. inch of surface area.  That around 25+ armps for a #7/#8 plane.  That also does a fine job stripping off the old paint.  24 hrs is generally the length of time I use at this current.  I use 30 amp Variacs with full wave rectification and current limiter circuits.

   Since the japanning on the old planes is lead based, the residue that collects in the bottom of the tanks has to be disposed of in a proper manner.

   ps - It's Mike_In_Katy (aka PlaneWood) cause my name is Mike and I live in Katy Texas.  Had one guy ask me if Katy was my girl friend!!!!

    

    

    

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 28, 2005 04:21am | #8

   Mike,

   Any idea how your data would translate for a 12 volt battery charger?

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   PlaneWood | Mar 29, 2005 04:49am | #13

   Alan -

   Figure the square inches of total surface undergoing electrolysis.  If your getting 50 milliamps (0.05 amp) per sq inch, then go for 48 hrs.  Like I said, I use 100 milliamps per sq inch for 24 hrs.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

3. 
   Lilshaver | Mar 28, 2005 09:20pm | #12

   For more information, try this website. I haven't finished reading it yet but it looks promising.

   http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm

   Jeff

4. 
   TonLoc | Mar 31, 2005 10:37pm | #20

   I note that connecting the electrodes  as you suggest erodes the tool. Whereas if hooked up in the opposite way, elemental iron is deposited on the tool and rust is converted to iron.   The andyspatch website mentioned does an excellent job of explaining the difference. One method yields results similar to an industrial strength acid bath (which does have its uses mind you) while the other yields a conservation- restoration effect.

1. 
   jackiechan | Mar 31, 2005 11:59pm | #21

    

   "I note that connecting the electrodes  as you suggest erodes the tool.  Whereas if hooked up in the opposite way, elemental iron is deposited on the tool and rust is converted to iron. "

   I recommended: attaching the negative lead from the battery charger to the part to be cleaned - in this case a metal hand plane.  The positive clip must be attached to the electrode - in this case, the piece of scrap iron surrounding the plane in the electrolytic solution.  When the charger is turned on using this set up it is the electrode - the sacrificial piece of iron - that will be eaten away.  The negative is the cathode and the positive is the anode. 

   Attempting electrolysis in the way you've described (the reverse of my recommendation), will not only remove rust, but the underlying metal as well.

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

   Edited 3/31/2005 5:03 pm ET by Jackie Chan

1. 
   TonLoc | Apr 01, 2005 12:56am | #22

   Thanks for the clarification and my apologies for misunderstanding your response to the query from Jpatrick (which seems to have been deleted). I guess with all the positive-negative-anode-cathode talk I got turned around!

2. 
   PlaneWood | Apr 01, 2005 03:55am | #23

   I took a $2 no name plane and hooked it up backwards just for grins.  After 24 hours the surface kinda looked like a sponge with large pores.  I cooked it at about 200 milliamps per sq inch.  Water was almost boiling.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

1. 
   jackiechan | Apr 01, 2005 04:10am | #24

   "After 24 hours the surface kinda looked like a sponge with large pores"

   Buff it off, throw some black paint on top, and all the hardware (tote, knob, etc...) and put it with your collection.  Tell people that it is a very rare Swiss (as in cheese) plane created by a world famous artist!  Excellent!Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.