Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 07, 2005 07:05am | #1

   I was surprised by those instructions also.  My sequence is to

   1. joint one face
   2. joint one edge
   3. plane th opposite face (from #1)
   4. joint the last edge (usually on the tablesaw, just because it's time to rip to width)

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   billballeza | Jun 07, 2005 11:32pm | #5

   I've been following your sequence.. and then jointing the final edge on the Jointer because it seemed easier and more precise than ripping on the TS.

   I'll be changing my method now, though.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 08, 2005 08:07am | #10

   I sometimes cut that last edge a bit proud on the tablesaw, then do the final precise sizing with the jointer, but in general I like to use the tablesaw.  I get a better edge with the saw than I do with my jointer!  Took me awhile (practice, practice) to get to that point. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   JeffHeath | Jun 07, 2005 07:08am | #2

   bill

   With 2 faces flat and parallel, running one face along the fence of the jointer and creating 3 square sides, right.  You said you get it until this point. 

   Now, you have to run the jointed edge along the table saw fence, and rip the board so that the opposite edge, side or whatever you want to call it, is parallel to the jointed edge. 

   If you simply joint the 4th edge, it will be flat and square to the 2 faces, but not parallel to the opposite site.  Thus, resulting in a board that is wedge shaped, instead of square.

   Jeff

1. 
   billballeza | Jun 07, 2005 11:28pm | #4

   "If you simply joint the 4th edge, it will be flat and square to the 2 faces, but not parallel to the opposite site.  Thus, resulting in a board that is wedge shaped, instead of square."

    

   This is the explanation missing from Rogowski's instruction. I still don't understand it but I accept the explanation as valid. Thanks.

   This also explains why I've had less than successful panel glue ups. I keep jointing both edges on the boards that are being joined together.

3. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 07, 2005 09:36pm | #3

   Me too.. If three edges square then.. Dang.. I'm Lost.. SO I use the TS!

4. 
   hammer1 | Jun 08, 2005 02:49am | #6

   Jointers are not very good sizing tools. Their main purpose is to flatten or straighten stock. In doing so, the blades take off high spots and surface the piece in relation to the contact with the tables. It's quite common for more material to be taken off one end, the middle or one side depending on the irregularities of the stock and the operators feed pressure and technique. There is no way for the jointer to reference to the opposite face or edge of your board, unlike the table saw or planer. Both the table saw and the planer will cut parallel with either the fence or the feed tables. Generally, your goal is to get a board that is flat and straight, with edges and faces that are parallel to each other and to a specific dimension.

   If you wait to straighten your edge after the piece has been planed, you have four possible ways to feed the board on the jointer. Because you get a cleaner and easier cut when cutting with the grain, having all options of feed direction open, will allow you to take advantage of grain direction. If only one face is flat to register against the jointer fence, you only have two options for feed direction. Neither of these may give a grain growth direction advantage.

   Since the jointer does not register to the opposite side or edge of a board, flipping it over will not give you equal width or thickness. It will just straighten and flatten the part that rides on the tables. Start with a wedge, flip it over and you still have a wedge.

   Jointers as well as hand planes and many woodworking processes don't always match up with your common sense. As you progress through a cut, there are variations that come into play. The knives dull a little, some wood in a board is harder, we lose concentration or put more pressure in some areas than others, all of which result in slight irregularities. If you were to take a nice straight, parallel sided 1"x6" and make a few passes on one side on the jointer, chances are quite good that the width will not remain parallel. It is not a mathematically, finite machine as we may imagine it.

   There are two techniques that are used on the jointer when milling rough lumber. The most common is to place pressure on the infeed table until you have a sufficient amount of surface to register to the outfeed table. The "rule of thumb" is about one third the length of the piece. At this point you move your hands to the outfeed table only, and only apply pressure on the outfeed table. This is how you get the board flat and straight. The other method is used when you want to remove the marks that a saw has made after ripping. In this case you apply pressure to both infeed and outfeed tables throughout the cut. You are trying to take an equal amount off the edge and you need to keep in contact with the full depth of the blades, it's already straight.

   Not every piece in a project has to have all faces and edges perfectly surfaced. If you don't want the saw marks on your edge after squaring up, you plan ahead for one pass on the jointer. 1/16" or less is normally the amount you set the jointer depth. Add this amount to the rip fence setting on the table saw.

   This is my sequence of milling rough lumber with power tools.
   1. Select the lumber; this is a big one, it can involve all types of issues. By the time I'm ready to start milling a piece, I already know where it will be used on the project and what the final dimension will be.
   2. Rough cut to length; there's no sense in handling a 16' piece if all you need is 4'. There's also no sense in trying to mill pieces that are too small. The rough length is generally, a couple inches longer than the final dimension.
   3. Flatten one face; this gets a large surface to which all other surfaces can be registered. This is done on the jointer or with planes. At this stage you identify grain direction and organize your pieces so you know which ends to feed into the machines. The surface does not have to be 100% perfect. It just needs to be consistent enough to register well on the planer table for the next step. I like a power plane for pieces that are wider than my jointer. I'm going to plane that face eventually, so it doesn't have to be pretty.
   4. Plane to thickness; This takes a few passes and it is wise to try to take equal amounts off both faces. The grain usually runs the opposite direction on the opposing faces, therefore, you need to turn the board end for end when you flip from face to face (most of the time).
   5. Straighten an edge; back to the jointer, this time looking for edge grain direction. Having both faces milled, I can run the piece from either side. I not only have the grain direction under control but I can choose hump up or hump down in the straightening process.
   6. Rip to width; the table saw is a perfect tool for sizing a piece of lumber that has a straight edge to go against the fence. Once set up, it can give consistent repeatable cuts to a specific size.
   7. Smooth up the ripped edge; this is optional depending on the visibility or use of the piece.
   8. Square one end and cut to length;

   It's best to do all pieces that will be the same thickness at the same time. After milling, I stack my pieces with stickers to allow air to circulate freely on all sides.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
1. 
   billballeza | Jun 08, 2005 05:02am | #7

   I have just copied your reply onto a word document and saved it in my woodworking folder.

   This is what I will refer to in my next project and I thank you for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive and understandable explanation of the milling process.

   Now if I can just learn grain direction (especially on the edges) it'll be much smoother sailing. I work mainly in walnut where the grain is hard to read and often appears to be running in both directions on the same face. I usually know the grain direction after the first pass on the jointer or planer because the machine tells me.

   Thanks again.

   Bill

1. 
   hammer1 | Jun 08, 2005 06:31am | #8

   Bill, you're a lucky guy to work with walnut, one of the great cabinet woods. It has a fantastic feel but it doesn't taste that good. The more interesting the lumber, the more cantankerous the grain. Work safe.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   billballeza | Jun 13, 2005 11:34pm | #17

   I don't know about the taste.. but walnut smells so good when you're milling it that it's a pure pleasure to work with it.

   It has the additional virtues of stability and strength.

2. 
   macalex | Jun 08, 2005 06:47am | #9

   > Now if I can just learn grain direction <

   It's always best to know where your grain is running (and I sometimes scribble pencil arrows on the face of a board just to remind me) but if it's not too wild, and your knives/blades are sharp, you'll find you can often get away with a bit of reverse grain. With walnut you'll be lucky to get decent sized boards with consistent grain, but with care you will get away with it. Keep everything sharp and clean.

   Malcolm

    New Zealand  |  New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis

2. 
   philip | Jun 08, 2005 12:57pm | #11

   Hammer,
   Well put. In particular your last sentence re stacking with separators/stickers so air circulates equally all round.
   Gentlemen in previous posts who said they had alignment problems should read your post again.
   I would like to add that at sequence 3, if I have a board that in r/s state looks as though it could have difficult grain and also struggle for thickness I joint an edge first to be sure of grain direction, then carefully surface one face taking minimum cut to get a finished face : then when I have thicknessed I have two good faces to choose from.

1. 
   donkey | Jun 08, 2005 03:08pm | #12

   I great thread!  I am a high school teacher and have taught a wide array of "technical" courses.  My focus is engineering, but have taught (and was trained as a cabinet maker) woodworking in the past.  One of the first things that I actually teach about machining (aside from basic operation) is how to square stock.  I stress the sequence as well as the reason why.  This is something that I never have seen anyone on TV (we know who) spend time doing.  With this being such a basic, foundation level skill, this thread is extremely important.  Another reason why if you are unsure or are confused by something...ask!  These are the skillspassed from one to another that make you a better woodworker, and thus the quaility of your work better.

    

   Donkey

1. 
   philip | Jun 09, 2005 12:00pm | #13

   Hello Donkey,
   Thanks for your support-lucky are those who are taught woodworking by a person with practical engineering background. Also woodworking is even more enjoyable when one can make , modify , repair all those things that go hand in hand with decent woodworking.
   I have had fun and saved time and money by utilising my interest in practical engineering.
   I have said this before but I think people should at least fill in basic details for their profiles.

   Edited 6/9/2005 5:02 am ET by mookaroid

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 09, 2005 06:01pm | #14

   I'm a Engineer.. Well, was one... Just Electrical though! We just built or TTL prototypes on wooden mounting boards....

   I still do not understand... If you can make three sides flat and true why not the fourth? My little brain 'tells' me.. OK.. Mill one edge flat,,, Mill two faces flat... OK...

   Then the other edge should be Ok too!... If that last edge is not parallel with the first edge.. THEN how come the two faces can be parallel to each other?? Or is that solved by gettin' a planner!  LOL

   Or do I get Planner over? EDIT:  Sorry Hammer...

   Edited 6/9/2005 11:04 am ET by Will George

   Edited 6/9/2005 11:05 am ET by Will George

1. 
   donkey | Jun 09, 2005 06:36pm | #15

   Three tools (machines) are needed to make a board flat, square (and parallel, parallel is just square to another face or edge)...jointer, planer and table saw (or some variation of a saw).

   To make the opposite side of a long edge parallel, you rip the edge against the jointed edge.  To make a face parallel to a jointed face you use the planer, because you are refrencing off of the face that is against the infeed table on the planer, much as you would refrence off of the rip fence on a table saw.

   You need to have something to refrence off of to get the second edge, side or face true (parallel or square, however you look at it).

    

   Donkeyeww...don't poke me there, it hurts.

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 09, 2005 07:27pm | #16

   Thanks.. Sort of like a Surface planner the boss just payed 3 grand to have the table honed I messed up.. I get it now...

5. 
   Bioman | Jun 13, 2005 11:43pm | #18

   Alternately, if your thickness planer is capable of handling narrow materials without cocking them, just run it through on it's side.  This creates the 90 degree angle and keeps the width constant with the opposite side.  I usually do this on 3/4 and larger stock and have had no accuracy issues.