Just learned about this… thought it might be of interest.
So basically, there are 2 power tool companies. Black & Decker and TTI. Unbelievable.
TF
Toolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as “Toolfreak”)
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Replies
I hijacked the link and posted it in breaktime.
Toolfanatic,
Who owns Bosch?
I don't know -- but I know they now make "Skil" tools and own the Rotozip.TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
I think that you can also add Dremel to the skill etc. list. Pat
>> Who owns Bosch
No one owns Bosch. Bosch is a Swill company that is privately owned. Bosch bought Skil a number of years ago.
Bosch is a very large successful company that makes auto parts for many European and American cars. Portable power tools are a relatively small part of their business.Howie.........
Howie,
Thanks for the confirmation, I would have been surprised if Robert Bosch sold the power tool division, but some pretty wacky things happen in corporate life these days.
Just brought to my attention - look at the date on the article - 01/03/2005.
This occured over a year ago.
It gets worse; there are rumors afoot that the tool division for Hitachi might be sold to B&D.
BTW, I spoke to a Delta rep I know last week, and asked how B&D intends to weave Porter Cable into the product line. He said the current plan is that Dewalt will be positioned for the construction trades, and PC will be aimed at the cabinetmaking crowd. There is considerable overlap between these two product lines, so it will be interesting to see how it all sorts out.
If true, it does make sense. PC would then be better positioned to take on some of the Europeans (Festool, Fein, Metabo, et al)who are making incursions into the high end of the wwing market.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Everybody should take a breather and think about these acquisitions rationally. Companies do not buy other companies with the intent of running them into the ground, in fact quite often the opposite is true when the acquired company is a neglected asset that has value (purchase price being a proxy for future cash flows) beyond what the buyer is acquiring it for. Case in point is Milwaukee Electric Tool company, which has done well historically in the contractor market and poorly in the consumer market, yet was seeing dramatically increased competition in the contractor market from a wide array of competitors. They have followed other companies into the market with me-too products and were seeing their prospects dim with each passing year given the reality that the when you don't generate cash flow you can't invest in R&D to develop new products.I would also remind everyone that it was under new ownership that Milwaukee came out with the impressive v28 lithium ion battery system, and over at Powermatic it was new mgmt that came out with the first update to the venerable 66 (a retractable riving knife is no small addition either).If I were a private equity shop or another tool company I would be setting my sights on The Hilti Group next, they are about $3.2b in annual sales, moderately profitable, have strong brand and global distribution, and like Milwaukee are somewhat stuck in their core market.
Take a close look at a Hilti circular saw and a Porter Cable circular saw. It's the same saw!!TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
quite possibly, I can't imagine anyone designing a new circular saw when there are so many on the market. Having said that, The Hilti Group is a private company, the Martin Hilti Family Trust owns all of the registered shares and 99% of the nonvoting shares. This of course actually makes them a highly defensible company in terms of buyouts... the only way you could get it is by persuading the trust to sell it, unlikely. Their headquarters being based in Liechtenstein doesn't make it any easier either, what with the primary business of that country being the safeguarding of family assets like this.
Well, I don't really care one way or the other. But it does seem to me that the consumer benefits if most of the products in a given class are not owned by 2-3 corporations. But I also think the power of the big boxes has changed the whole landscape for tools.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
re big boxes, yes but you can't unring the bell.
I care when I spend the extra money for "good quality" tools, give them only light use, then have to take them to the repair shop for something.TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
I speculate that true "brand identity" is a more slippery concept than before the big box thing came into being. Take Milwaukee, for example. They have been known since forever for their rugged design and durability. I think that is probably sitll true for the old chesnuts in their line -- the sawzall, hole hawg, drills, etc. But in their understandable desire to broaden their product line, I think they are occasionally dropping items on the market that are not designed/manufactured to the same old standards. I recently bought their big 3 hp router, mainly because it had some nice features to it. Turns out, however, that the thing vibrates/chatters when you are using a big bit. I have been trying for about 3 weeks, and I can't get anybody from Milwaukee to give me any straight answers about the problem. This is not a big deal, and I am not making any sweeping generalizations about the tool market because of this experience. But I am saying that, no matter the brand, it is probably not possible to expect the same reliability across every product in the line.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I'm working through a problem with the Milwaukee 5625, new it had play in the shaft axially. This may be the source of the vibration for you.Check it with it unplugged and the collet out. See if you can move the threaded part of the shaft up and down, not side to side.I've not even run mine through a cut and its going back to the factory. If they take care of it, great. They seem to be pretty responsive.Seems like they may have a few bad 5625's out there.I plan on posting a report on the whole thing once its said and done so all can be aware.
Sorry to hear about your Milwaukee. Interesting what you and nikkiwood are saying about the 5625. I bought mine in May 2004 and it's been sitting 'neath by Veritas router table ever since. And, not a problem. No vibration, nothing. And it gets run almost daily. Sounds like they may have had a bad run. If that is the case, their QA needs to be sent packing.
In my case the router worked fine on all except a big architectural molding cutter, which is about 2" high. If you have some sort of really big bit, like the one above, or a panel raiser, you might chuck it in the router and give it a try.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nice to hear from you.No, I don't have any very large bits. SARGE (remember him?) told me about the Milwaukee when I was in the market back in 2004 and I'm very glad he did. I truly marvel at what I can do with it under my Veritas router table. I'm very sorry to hear the problem you're having with yours. If you get through to a rep, I'd like to know what he has to say. When did you purchase yours? And, are you certain that the bit is true?Take care,
Phillip
I bought the Milwaukee just recently. I'm sure it was the router, since I took the same bit, chucked it into a PC 7518, and it worked fine.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That's not good at all. I absolutely hate when something like that happens. I know it's not my problem, but in a way it's everyone's problem when you have product failure, regardless of the degree of seriousness. I truly hope you get some relief from Milwaukee. And quickly. Please keep me in the loop as you progress through this. Hopefully they will just replace it and you'll be good to go.
PB, I have a 5625(I checked, no end play) under a ratty flake board top that I picked up as ww warehouse folded and it's the pits. I re-routed all the raw dados for full size miter slots, sealed all raw areas, slot routed a rubber edge and used #14 screws in an attempt to keep the top flat to the steel frame. Then the next thing I see is Forestgirl's post on her LV top with pics. now yours with a 5625. WHO KNEW that they made this rig. I punch up their site and see the systems but no specs. I call LV and Hal(the most patient man in north america) spends 45+min. walking me through each spec page by part # so I can read them on my screen and try to understand this very different concept. I was impressed and ordered the video and feel sure that I will order the top, fence, sled, magnetic dc port, stand and base($584+ s&h) in time to get it during my Mar. visit to my new house in TN.
Now how did you mount the router and where do you drill a hole for the height adj. and is there anything else I need to know. Thanks, Pat
Oh, as an after thought, I never saw LV's "router table" despite hundreds+ visits to their site because it's all listed in parts in a different line selection and THAT'S where all the tech sheets were. Hal was sooo patient with this dummy and even posted credit for the shipping of the video to my acct. if I buy the system. LV should be giving cust. service trainning to sears,dell,royobi...... ya think. pfh
Hey "Paddy" I have had this setup for about a year. I would second your
comment on their excellent service.The steel plate works great with any
router that has an outboard height rod.I did find that the "coining" effect prevents any sagging with a 625 DeWalt hung under it. In fact when I hung it from the right end of the tablesaw I had to clamp it down an additional .011 to be flat enough.This is not a flaw, mind you, just my particular setup, which I am in the process of changing.
I discovered this when using a new Incra jig for double double dovetails.("garbage in, garbage out")
I would not drill the plate for any reason! Veritas makes a router bit bit jack for 80 dollars. This lets you raise it 2 inches in one stroke or .02 at a time.If you have the inclination and the time it is so easy to build your own table/holder for the plate and buy the Jack.
Hey, have fun I sure am.
Fred
Much thanks for the info, I am also not so prone to cut the plate given the good access. I will go with both of LV's tables/base as I am pressed for time with a house move/shop build all by myself. I am delighted that so many have a good report on this system, Now on to the other 300 things that I must decide on for the new shop. Thanks again. Pat
Pat,Glad to know you saw Forrestgirl's setup. We compare notes on occasion but I did not see her photos. I'll do my best to answer your questions. As to the Customer Service reps at LV, they are without a doubt, the best in the business. LV takes care of their employees. What a concept! Unlike Wal-Mart employees which have to work two jobs to keep their head up (this was reported on 20-20 or one of those programs) and only provides health care after 1 year of service. This program went on to say that Wal-Mart employee's actually COST the state that they work in because of the social programs that they have to have just to live. I know I'm off subject, but we enjoy the benefits of good customer service because of how LV employee's are treated. So, yes, Lee Valley is tops in my book and I let them know it every chance I get by purchasing their innovative and valuable products. I feel that the purchase of the Lee Valley/Veritas router table system is the best money that I have EVER spent in regards to wood working tools. Period. End of story. I research like a mad-man before I buy. I don't mind spending money, but I hate to waste it. And, unfortunately, I have made two dumb purchases. So, these tools simply sit in the corner gathering dust. The Veritas steel router bench top has accessories that bring a smile to my face every time I use them. Some of this could be because as an engineer, I truly appreciate tools which were well designed and were manufactured like someone actually cared about what they were doing. The fence is very versatile both with what you can purchase from LV and with those things which you can tailor make for the way you work or special projects. BTW, about two months ago I got after FWW for omitting this router bench from the FWW #181 'Router Table' tool test. Anatole Burkin responded by pointing out that the LV system does not come pre-assembled. And he is correct. This is unfortunate, but there could be a very good reason for this. It could be that this is LV's way of keeping the cost down: you do the basic assembly, and they will provide you with a quality and very versatile routing system. Everyone wins.When I was looking for a router to put under this table, I too, wanted above board this and that. With a little help from this forum, I bought the Milwaukee 5625. I soon discovered that a hole would have to be drilled in the router top to reach the lift mechanism. I decided to try it out without this feature for a while and have never looked back because I could see no real benefit in time saved by doing so. I know many will argue with this, but for me, there is absolutely no advantage. I still have to reach under to unlock the motor before adjusting, so while I'm under there, I simply make the adjustment and I'm good to go. I prefer to 'walk' the bit into spec, just as I do the fence. In reality, most of what we do is the matching of one joint face to another. So rather than rely on adjusting 1/16 this or 1/4-inch that, I just make the second piece match the first for a good fit. This holds true if making one joint or making 10. All I care about is a good, tight fit. Actual measurements don't weigh in. So, I just make a cut, check it against its mating member, and repeat until I'm satisfied with the fit. I am not measuring, I'm simply working towards a good, tight fit. Nothing more. These are my personal work habits and they work fine - for me. Someone may prefer another method.Fitting the router to the top is simplicity itself. The video explains this better that I can. First of all, you have to load the included special 'bit' into your router. One end of this stepped 'bit' is 1/4-inch, the other is 1/2-inch so you have to use the collet of choice. If you use the 1/2-inch collet, you will have to use the 1/4-inch insert. This will match the 1/4-inch end of this 'bit'. Now, all you do is invert the LV steel table and insert the 1/4-inch bit into the hole in the insert. You have now centered the bit to the insert. The bottom of the table has very versatile 'quick change' clamps each of which you now move snugly against your router base and lock these devices in place. In photo 'Router Bench_008', I show one of the brass fasteners which fasten the router firmly to one of these 'quick change' clamps. Removing the router means just loosening the knurled brass knobs and off it comes. I only remove mine for periodic cleaning and inspection. As to the LV router table and bench, I built my own patterned after theirs. I believe that they offer plans but I just built according to my own personal needs. I prefer to make my own 'support systems' - if you will - because I can tailor them precisely to what I want or do not want. Many folks, Pat Warner is one, prefer a single up-right, no frills type of router bench to match their work habits. I want all my router tools and accessories within arms reach. I also wanted to have 'shelf space' on which to lay work pieces. One side in the 'In' shelf, the other is the 'Out'. This works for me. I also have two sand bags below the bottom shelf to give the bench some mass which I think is necessary.Now, on to the images.Router Bench_001
View of the left side of the bench. Inserts go on this side. The casters are heavy duty. The ones on this side do not pivot. Drawers are opened with the routed reliefs on either end of the drawer face. I do not want to bang my knees against drawer knobs, so I had to improviseRouter Bench_002
View of the right side of the bench. Tools on this side. Casters on this side pivot and lock. The MDF is sacrificial fence stock. I have several different ones for my own unique needs. They are easy to make and a snap to use.Router Bench_004
Bits showing inside upper drawer. The 'foot feed' is shown just below the tools. This goes on the floor when working.Router Bench_005
Table in bit-changing position. Everything is very accessible.Router Bench_006
Router table flipped for maintenance.Router Bench_008
Close-up of hardware used to hold router in place.Veritas Micro Adjust_009
This is a gem of a tool which is used to adjust the fence in micro-increments. This CANNOT be purchased separately. It only comes with the purchase of the table as Forrestgirl discovered sometime back.Pat, I hope I answered all of your questions. There is much more to this great system, give it a close look. You may be very glad that you did. Good luck.Phillip
Priceless info I can't thank you enough.
Now my rant-I watched home dopy destroy all the fantastic hardware stores and most of the fine lumber yards in this area and it broke my heart. I visit my new digs in east TN and wind up needing some meds during my stay, I hunted down the local pharmacy in this little town because I felt that he could "use the business" rather than go to the big time wall-mart . I told him of my choice and he gives me the store business card, writes a # on the back and says that if I have a real emergency just give him a call, there may be some hope yet. I think that I am in a "good place."
I also belive that we cut to a mark or fit and I have been looking at all the "magic" tool solutions in 40 years of making sawdust, they just don't get it. It's much like the magic driver that will take 10 shots off your golf game for only $499, NOT. Just give me a fine thread lead screw a zero out collar and I know where I was, where I went and where I can go back to.
I think that Hall is going to cough up that shipping credit , hah. Your info/pics and Forestgirls have me sold. I would normally have, like you, built the stand/base to my liking but as I am in the middle of a house move/shop build all by myself I will buy it all to provide immediate use. I will however look to install a serious 3/4" edged top over the top of the floor stand to provide more structure, an in/out wing left and right, as well as a short ? 3 to 4" front ledge for tools in hand, fit blocks etc.
As far as the top height adj. I can't see the need either to drill a hole given the great and simple access and the fact that you have to change bits anyway. Your pics of the router clamps reminded me of LV's normal technical competence. WOW. You could probably hang a 5hp 1" spindle shaper motor from them.
thanks again guys. Pat
"I will however look to install a ..., as well as a short ? 3 to 4" front ledge for tools in hand, fit blocks etc."Be careful with this. You want a smooth surface to work in front of. And, unless you want to work stooped over - which is not good - you do not want to put any more distance between yourself and the table top. So, if I understood you correctly, I would not add this frontal ledge as you plan. Your back will pay the price and you could lose some control over your work because of this non-normal posture.One last thing. Do not fail to purchase two (2) of the Veritas fence stops as shown below.http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41799&cat=1,43053,43885,42837&ap=1These are invaluable for controlling the start and stopping points of your cut. You can make your own, which I have done, but the LV stops will soon become indispensable to you. Good luck.
I beat you to the punch. I had just looked at the accessories and they were on the top of the top of my add on list. Great minds think a like. ( I once had a very smart admin asst who told me that if that was the case, then we could afford to let one of them go?)
I understand your concern and I will scope out the available space inside the vertical plane dropping from the front edge of the top plate. That's why I said ? 3 to 4", it may be less than 2" or zero , I will see and advise after I return from TN.
I will be off net from 3/13 until I get back. I have been having a little problem with bell south for the last 4 months(and I thought that ma bell, nynex, Verizon was dumb) in that they advertise the socks off dsl but have no infrastructure to support requests between the big towns. I think that this time we will have a discussion in the mother tongue. I am tired of their marketing lies. They don't know that in past lives I have installed 5 large northern telecom switches, numerous key systems , a three building three switch campus set up for voice and data with a common numbering plan and was an officer in the northern users group. I can hear it now "so now who is your supervisor and may I have a moment of their time?" Wish me luck, thanks again Pat
I raised the issue with one of the tech people at the "sawdust" number; he said he would get back to me. but that was 2-3 weeks ago. I like this router, so I wanted to know 1) were they aware of the problem (he said there had been no technical bulletins issued), and 2) If there was a problem, and they fixed it, is there a way I could identify the models which had been run thru since the correction (like a serial number). BTW, I tried to move the collet holder (as you suggested), and there was no discernible play in the shaft; so I don't know what else might be going on.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That's a very different experience than I've had. Contacted them via e-mail and started the process. Got a name and an extension number; made a call and explained the issue. Next day a Fedex call tag was issued and its going back to the factory.Could be because its a new router and I raised the issue before it was used. However I did mention that I'm trying to switch to Milwaukee from Porter Cable, which is true. I prefer to have one make in the shop so I don't have multiple wrenches, collets, and model specific jigs.Hope you get it worked out soon.Also, did this bit ever run true? If so you might check for runout. With their five-year warranty you should be able to get it working.Pretty frustrating. Who wants to spend time baby-sitting a tool?
Me too -- I have always had good luck with Milwaukee's tech service and support. If I did not like the router so much, I would just return it and get a refund. BTW, did you figure out that the wrenches for this Milwaukee and PC are the same size and can be used interchangeably?It would be nice though, if Milwaukee made an offset wrench -- so you could change bits from the top of the table. The PC wrenches are stamped steel, and I have a lot of extras, so I am thinking about heating one up and see if I can bend it to the shape necessary.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
<I recently bought their big 3 hp router, mainly because it had some nice features to it. Turns out, however, that the thing vibrates/chatters when you are using a big bit. I have been trying for about 3 weeks, and I can't get anybody from Milwaukee to give me any straight answers about the problem.>I know that problem too. Mine was caused by the convex phenolic base of the Milwaukee router. I made three new ones out of 1/4" clear acrylic and havent had the issue since. I placed a straight edge across the base and discovered it. May yours be as easy. aloha, mike
Since I wanted to use the router in a table, I took the phenolic base off, and mounted the base to an insert plate (from Rousseau).********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
IIRC, the new owners originally bought about a half interest in Milwaukee, in/around 2000 and in the past 6 years, have done quite a bit of R&D. I know one of the design engineers who is/has been working on a new contractor's grade SCMS that was originally supposed to be about $300 but with the drastic changes in the metals market, I'm not sure they can do it. They aren't exactly sitting on their butts waiting for something good to happen. OTOH, Milwaukee doesn't make the 28V batteries but when they saw their potential, no pun intended, they felt that they had to make a move.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Interesting. While at the KC woodworking show in February, I also discussed with a bigwig from PC/Delta about the B&D buyout. He implied, no firm statements, that B&D upper levels are still developing their strategies. Bottom line was that B&D is most interested in making money -- not the art and tools of woodworking.
Surprise? <grin>
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Reading the press release I'm reminded of BS Bingo ;-) (To be played while attending management discourses.)
Arrrgh. So now we get tech support from vacuum cleaner builders. I'm sure that will be as much fun as attempting to fiddle parts with a Sears telephone answerer person parts thingamabob. One way or another, this will all get sorted out because there will always be a decent market for good tools. In the meanwhile, it gets pretty dicey trying to figure out the best place to put your shekels.
---John
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