Mini-gloat — got me a DUST COLLECTOR!
Thanks to Brian (“Migraine”) I finally have a dust collector! He had an “extra” Jet cannister-style collector due to a shipping mix-up with Amazon, and he brought it to the Knots Fest on Saturday. We put it together in Tom’s shop and fired it up. I hooked it up to the overhead DC pipe on my tablesaw yesterday and couldn’t believe the difference it made. Whooooopeeee!
Now I have to go out and get some attachments. Not planning any ductwork per se for awhile yet, but want to have a splitter for the table saw, so as to get both the top and the bottom, a positionable thingie for over the workbench, stuff like that.
So, tell me if I’m right: I should run 6″ from the DC to the place where the hose splits off to an individual machine? Or should I use the 4″ Y-splitter right from the get-go (it attaches to the 6″ port)?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
Forest.. I got the low end Jet.. Sale at Rockler.. Cheaper than at the local HD...
I put my home made Cyclone on it.. Works OK Well I could do better if I had a grand to spend on that project!
Since you're combining two 4" ports that you will be drawing from at the same time, like you are for the table saw, then the pipe that carries the combined load needs a cross-section at least twice that of a 4" pipe. A 6" pipe does that (2.25x that of a 4"). Whether you run two 4" pipes all the way back to the 6" port on the DC, or run a 6" pipe to the saw, is up to you.
For tools with just one port, which typically have a much lower cfm requirement (400 cfm for most 1-port tools, vs. 800 for the 2-port tools like the TS), your run can be 4" all the way to the DC.
Smooth wall pipe works better than flex-tubing, as you'll no doubt notice when you put in some duct runs.
I heartily recommend installing a floor sweep as soon as you can (i.e., tape the sweep to the floor, and you just brush the sawdust toward it with a broom). Makes sweeping up downright fun.
I run 4" pipe to my machines (terminating in a 6" wye at the DC).
However, I have read that Oneida recommends 5" pipe as the most efficient. We need to hear from someone more knowledgeable than I, but I suspect running 6" pipe might be ineffective.
Instead of the spiral pipe made for DC's, I used 4" plain old metal duct pipe (with duct tape over the seams). It is a lot cheaper, easy to come by locally, and my pipe is none the worse for wear after about 7-8 years.
I was pretty anal about grounding, so for the drops I bought the flex tubing which is supporting by a continuous wire ($35 for a 10' section), and I ran ground wire jumpers around any plastic fittings. But from what I've read around here in the last year or two, all of this is probably not necessary. You can always do it later if you have problems with static build-up.
As for the floor sweep, I had one and got rid of it. The DC bag is messy to empty, so I didn't want to change it any more often than I had to. Hence, floor sweepings get picked up with a grain shovel -- which is just a light weight scoop shovel made from aluminum. I use it like a dust pan, but I don't have to bend over.
for the top of your TC, do you intend to buy one of those overarm guards with a dust pick up, or will you jury rig something?
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
"for the top of your TC, do you intend to buy one of those overarm guards with a dust pick up...." Been there, bought that <g> -- got the PSI overhead guard/collector last year for Christmas! They make a wye-kit with an adjustable gate that you can use to moderate the amount of DC going to the bottom or the top of the saw.
Actually, I was pretty amazed at how efficient just having the collector hooked up to the top of the guard was yesterday. But still, I'll hook it up to the bottom also.
"The DC bag is messy to empty" Hence the clear plastic bag on the bottom of the new DC (the top is a cannister filter). Tie it up and toss it, or on a windy day, empty it in the field out front, bag headed downwind.
I found the site that talks about the myths of dust collection (including grounding) but I haven't had time to read through it yet. It'll be awhile before I have to worry about that, methinks. I do want to graduate to ducting rather than hose as soon as I can though. I can tell it'll make a big difference in efficiency.
What guage is the pipe that you use? PSI sells an economy metal ducting, 26 gauge with an upper limit of 10" static pressure recommended. If I become convinced that guy is right about PVC not needing to be grounded, I might go that way. We'll see.
Guess I'll have to get "that book" on dust control, eh?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Re: "that book" (on DC) -- hat's what made me "anal' about grounding. RE: pipe guage. I just bought the regular duct pipe in 4 ' sections (not the snap together stuff). It's the galvanized stuff, not aluminum, since I reasoned it hold up better with dust and abrasive chips moving through it. I should get some of those disposable bags. Mine (a Jet) has a spring steel ring that holds the bag on the inside of the housing. and I always get a big cloud of dust when I snap it to get the thing out."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
"I always get a big cloud of dust when I snap it to get the thing out." Thanks for the warning. I guess I'll see if it's less of a problem with plastic. I'l slap the pastic around a bit before emptying, should knock the stuff down, eh?
Since you've made a thorough reading of "that book" [Nagyszalanczy's Woodshop Dust Control for those who don't know] I'd welcome your opinion on the artcle I linked to above about myths of dust collection. I'm going to print it out and read it over the next couple of days. It'd be interesting to air this one out some, since most references I've see to it are in the vein of "someone out there says...." Here's the link again.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie,I looked through the link you mentioned (originally posted on the old Badger Pond forum). Keeerist--- this guy (Rod Cole) is an MIT type, but he is a math guy, and not an engineer or physicist. But for whatever reason, he has done his homework, and prepared a careful, thoughtful paper on dust collection dangers.However, as is the case with most academics, he can’t summarize his way out of a paper bag, so here’s my own quick and dirty summary of his “summary.”1) Don’t worry about dust explosions in a home work shop. 2) Use whatever material you want for piping, including PVC. 3) The greatest danger: A spark that lodges in the dustbag --generally caused by something metallic (like a nail) hitting the impeller blades (some DC's use nonmetalic blades for this reason). Spark can smolder in the dustbag for hours, then burst into flame.Sparks from static electricity build-up can theoretically start a fire in the bag, but such occurrences are extremely (very extremely) rare. According to Cole there are no known cases. Solution: don’t run anything metal through your DC system (like floor sweepings with nails/screws). If you do (and know about it), empty the bag immediately, and get it outside and away from your house.The safest course is to empty the bag after every session in the shop. But again, we're talking about teeny tiny odds of having a fire problem. 4) GROUNDING. The primary reason for grounding ductwork is to protect you from nuisance static electric shocks. The risk of a dust explosion because of improper grounding is infinitesimally small.If you want to use PVC pipe (okay with him), don’t coil wire on the outside of the pipe. You can run a a single wire through the pipe, but better yet, drive 1/2” pan head screws every 4-6” with a continuous ground wire wrapped under the head of each screw.With metal duct work, you should use a ground wire to jump over any plastic fittings (like a wye).Info from Rod Cole (the link to his article follows):http://tinyurl.com/4g9oa"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
"...as is the case with most academics, he can’t summarize his way out of a paper bag." ROFL!!!! Too funny and excellent point!
Thanks, thanks, thanks for the summary! My eyes were glazing over trying to wade through the treatise. I'll read it though, just 'cause I should.
"But for whatever reason, he has done his homework, and prepared a careful, thoughtful paper on dust collection dangers." I suspect he's a woodworker in disguise.
Seems like a floor sweep was the first thing everyone recommended when I announced my new acquisition. Wonder how many of those people have a single-stage collector? I cringed the first time I heard a clank, which probably was caused by a small piece of gravel getting into the sawdust on the floor. I can always magnetically sweep up any metal goodies from the floor, but being in the country, tiny rocks are ubiquitous, as they come in on my shoes and between the doggy's toes.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey Jamie,You're comment about single stage collectors reminded me of an example of how tough they can be.When I got my Onieda cyclone, I gave my 2Hp Grizzley to my dad. One day he somehow let go of his foxtail bench brush, and it went up the pipe before he could shut off the DC.The noise was heart wrenching, and the upshot was that the brush was cleaved in half, and the impeller had two badly bent vanes. The old man went right to work and straightend the bent vanes, and re tightened the rivets that held them on the impeller.I'm beginning to think that Pop can fix a rainy day 'cause the DC works just fine. I think he's gonna buy a new brush though.Tom
"I'm beginning to think that Pop can fix a rainy day...." Your dad is great! I really enjoyed meeting him and your mom on Saturday. That's a new saying for me, love it.
"I think he's gonna buy a new brush though." No kidding, LOL.
Well, the worm's turning -- I just dropped my PC690. On the rubber mat, but still broke off a piece the black phenolic and cracked the cast base. Bummer. We'll see how long it lasts before being unusable. It's my extra hand-held base. Bummer.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey Jamie,Bummer about the router. If you can open the crack just a bit, squirt a little thin CA glue into it, and squeeze it shut with clamps or rubber bands. It should keep it from getting worse.Tom
Tom, due to a "relapse" in neck/back problems, I've haven't been able to thank you and you wife for hosting the get together with the people from Knots and WWMA(is that right?) This goes for Jamie and Nick's help too. This last migraine has been nonstop for 3 1/2 days with varying intensities.
I regret that the vacuum pressing thing didn't happen, but maybe next time. Or, Ocean Shores isn't that far away(except for maybe Dennis or maybe not <grin> ). It was an exact 2 1/2 hours from you doorstep to mine.
With the little care package(roasted pork) that you sent home with me, I only had a taste or two, the wife ate the rest. She was grinning from ear to ear. As a matter of fact, I showed her the downloaded photos and the web site for lacajachina.com and she wants one REAL BAD. So I guess that is going to happen real soon. Now that I think of it, I'll probably use the money from the dust collector and order a box tomorrow. Now the trick will be to find whole pigs out here on the coast (any suggestions, anyone?)
Again, thank you, Brian
Hey Brian,Sorry to hear that you're hurting, hope it passes soon. As I offered to loan the roasting box to Nick and Dennis, I can extend the offer to you, I you'd like.I figure that if I only use it once a year, it's not working hard enough, given what I paid for it. Let me know if/when you want it, and we'll work it out.Tom
Hi Tom, yeah, bummer. I used epoxy to glue the chip back into the sub-base. Then I rigged up my Workmate-type thing to serve as a spreader and put a little, teeny bit of epoxy into the base. It cracked right across one of the screw holes where the sub-base gets attached.
Decided I'll put the damaged base in the table -- with that universal-mounting system the Veritas uses, it'll be clamped good and solid and will experience less vibration than otherwise. I'll use the good base for the hand-held stuff. I think the whole incident falls under "No good deed goes unpunished" as I was attempting to rig up that Lee Valley cam handle thing on the router when it crashed to the floor. Oh well..... Thanks for the condolences.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
See... you should have bought some of those "welding rods" at the show. As the guy claimed, "they are great for repairing cracks in cast pot metal"
Funny thing is , they were the only thing I was tempted to buy at that show.
Good stuff!!!
I would like to add, can't remember the place I read, but if under 1500 cfm there seems to be no static dangers. In larger commercial size systems there is some static build up issues.
And the hot metal bits could come from your TS, planer etc if you hit some metal while cutting. There is the danger as you said from them sitting in your DC bag and smoldering there after you leave the shop.
Just another 2 cents
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough
I wonder if climate has anything to do with it?I'm in MN, and during the winter (when the indoor air can be especially dry), there is more of a problem with static electricity. For instance, when running the shop vac for a time, I will get a pretty good SE charge when touching a machine. Not dangerous, but still a nuisance."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
I think your right. Here in the south we only experience that dry static charge for a few days at a time when a cold front come through. My shop has not delivered a good shot of static at all, except in the winter but not from my DC. Other things in the shop have discharged on me but not the DC, at least so far.
I have the DC in a separate room from the where the machines are located and my main trunk/header line is under the floor. Only have about 3 ft max of hose to each machine. The planer and router table are the only exceptions, they are about 4-5 ft long.
Jamie,
What you really need is to calculate velocity. This is related to CFM by pipe size. You want to maintain 3500 to 4000 ft/min. you can do the math, but this is the critical value. The larger the pipe for a given CFM, the lower the velocity. Without doing the math (I'm feeling lazy tonight), I would say for a 500 or 600 CFM collector you sould use a 5" pipe from the collector, wyed to two 4" branches.
TDF
Hi Tom, thanks. I think it's supposed to be an 1100CFM (it's 1.5HP Jet). I'll find the math info some day when I'm awake!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Forestgirl,
If you really want to get fired up on chip and dust collection and management I suggest you look up "billpentz.com"- it is practical advice on how to do it well without going overboard with expense and buying things that don't do what is claimed by the manufacturer- tells you all about 4" and 6" pipes too e.g if you want to kill the fine dust you have to use 6" pipe....
Thanks. I have his site bookmarked, but haven't gotten over there yet. After April 15th I guess. :-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
tells you all about 4" and 6" pipes too e.g if you want to kill the fine dust you have to use 6" pipe....
Read his site carefully: it doesn't quite say that.
What it says is that, in order to catch all the fine dust, for some tools, you need to move ~800 cfm. These tools include big planers (the ones with 5"+ dust ports), and tools with 2 dust ports on them (such as table saws, and bandsaws).
He then explains quite well that moving 800 cfm through 4" is near-impossible, short of using a monster blower. So to the 800 cfm tools at least, you need 6" pipe. For the tools that just need to move ~400 cfm, 4" pipe is OK.
This is just a rough rule of thumb, of course. To get precise, you need to work out the satic pressure of your ducting, the capabilities of your blower, etc.
I was merely trying to come up with something useful: "billpentz.com", in this case. Since Forestgirl has posted that she has bookmarked that page for later reference I'm sure she will see that it is quite clear about what size of pipe to use for each application, and that some bother and expense can be avoided. It's a good site that also emphasises the importance of removing dust at source, especially the fine stuff which is something not everyone is clued up on.
Mookaroid, have you read the Announcements on Bill's site recently? Looks like he's having trouble keeping things going -- health problems. Really too bad.
I printed out about 60 pages of stuff from his site today, they'll make good bedtime reading, LOL. Lots to learn! I think for ducting I'm going to go with PVC. But ducting is a ways down the road.
Thanks for reminding me about his site.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Yep- it's that fine dust that has attacked him.
Please- what does LOL stand for?
LOL - Laughing Out Loud
ROFLOL - Rolling On the Floor, Laughing Out Loud
Dang eeit, there I was thinking it could mean Lots of Love....
Jamie, I glad that your happy with the DC, but I am sorry that their was a dent in the top corner, I didn't know. The boxes were never opened. Anyway, I'm glad you took it off my hands. Now I have some money to buy some thing else.(shush, don't tell the wife, or is it "LOML"???)
It's OK about the dent, Brian. I would have put one in there eventually, anyway, I'm sure! Mainly, I just have to set aside the time to rearrange the furniture in the shop so the DC can be incorporated efficiently! Am trying to finish a batch of those ball displays first so I can get them in the store, and also show them to my Seattle distributor, see if he'd be interested in carrying them.
Sorry to hear about the MHA episode. Serious, serious drag. So, did you tell your wife about the LOML name tags? I can send you a picture of hers if you want.
Take care, guy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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