Hello Woodworkers,
The following post is the experience I had with my attempt to purchase a panel saw from the Mini Max Vrs. Felder Co’s.
I recently upgraded my Powermatic 66 table saw to a 8.5′ sliding table saw from MiniMax(S315WS).In doing so I went through the process of speaking with many sales people from various Co’s selling these European saws. There are a number of these Co’s targeting the small cabinet shops or professional woodworkers who want or need a more versatile saw.The major Co’s that I dealt with during this 3 year ordeal were Laguna, Rojek, Felder, Grizzly and Mini Max. From what these Co’s had to offer I felt that Mini Max had the best overall saw when factoring in quality, cost,performance,and customer service. I viewed all that these Co’s had to offer at two different wood shows over a three year period. Due to the many customer service complaints that I heard with Laguna I didn’t continue any dealings with them after my initial inquiry. By far the worst experience I had was with the Felder Co. All though I found their products to be precisely manufactured and of exceptional quality, in the end I felt their prices to be too costly to be considered a better value than the Mini Max. The sales people that I talked with either seemed arrogant, uninformed or defensive when asked about how their saws stacked up to their competitors. They lured me in with their list prices on their Website. I was disappointed to find out that these prices were only for a raw or almost striped unit. To get all the features one would commonly want on a sliding table saw you have to purchase them separately or in addition to their base unit price. In the end I purchased a unit from Mini Max that was of equal or better quality than a similar unit with Felder and saved over three thousand dollars. I would have saved even more had Felder agreed to give back an initial deposit of $1,400.00 that I had given them for a saw I was interested in. Do not give the Felder Co. any money unless your absolutely sure you want their product,because they will not refund you your deposit if you change your mind. They get it in writing as part of a signed agreement. I was displeased with the unit I though I was interested in and explained to them the reasons why. I tried in good faith to upgrade with one of their larger units ,but I couldn’t get out the door with the unit I wanted from them under 12 grand. It was less costly for me to walk away from that deposit and purchase the Mini Max unit. What I found even more disturbing was their lack of understanding of the American concept of customer service. When I informed them of my decision to walk away from my deposit and purchase from another Co., the sales person stated that I would be back in a few years to purchase one of their superior units. Yeah, like I’m going to purchase any thing from them ever again after they stole my $1,400.00 deposit, unbelievable! I have since learned that this is a some what normal attitude that Europeans have, especially the Germanic peoples. They are viewed as stiff and rigid, even by other Europeans. Nothing personal against them ,it’s just a fact. I would surmise that most of the European woodworking machinery Co’s that do business in America, do a fair job of shielding us Americans from their, “the customers not ever right attitude”, but Felder doesn’t seem to be doing a very good job of that. I had been warned by a cabinet shop that builds a large portion of Costco’s fixtures( Cripe Cabinets out of Boise Idaho) that they had had such a bad experience with Felder customer service that they would never do business with them again. The owner said out of all the business dealings he had done it was the worst customer service experience he had ever experienced. My purpose in recording this experience is not intended to spread ill will toward any Co., more than an attempt to inform others who may be seeking to upgrade their wood working equipment to European standard equipment, just what they may be up against. The Mini Max sales people were professional , courteous, friendly and informed about their products. Their equipment seems solidly built, simple, and straight forward .I was able to take delivery of their unit within two weeks after my purchase. The Felder Co. would have taken three to six months to get their saw, if I had purchased theirs. If their saw breaks or needs parts, your OK for the first year( warranty coverage), but after that it may take you 3 months to get parts if they don’t have them in stock and you would have to wait or pay the overnight international shipping costs, to get it a few days. Mini Max has more parts on stock in the US, partly because they are a much larger Co. than Felder. I’ve been using the Mini Max S315WS sliding panel saw for only a week now and it’s and absolute dream to operate. I’ll be building my first kitchen on it this coming January, so I’ll update this post after that to update you on my experience. Happy woodworking to all!
Danny
Edited 11/19/2007 12:16 pm ET by brownman
Replies
Kudos for being so open about your experience. I will be looking into a multi-machine in the coming years to outfit a rather small shop i will be building. Do let us know all your other ramblings after you cut those kitchen parts!
Will Do! Thanks for caring!
Brown:
I am the happy owner of a Felder combination machine and your experience couldn't be more different from my own with Felder. While they may seem a little "teutonic", I had a major problem with the shipping. The transport company dropped the machine. Felder replaced it with a higher spec. machine and handled it with grace and efficiency.
Without knowing anything about the specifics of your dealings with Felder, I would say that your description is at odds with their normal behavior.
There are typically 3 sides to every story: yours, theirs and the truth.
Regards,
Hastings
I will have to agree with Hastings as my experience with Felder has been excellent. I looked at both the Felder and MiniMax machines and I liked the Felder machines better.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
I too have had great sucess with my Felder salesman also. The SCMI/Minimax distributor in Canada was less than interested in talking with me. I am starting to understand the OP's points about timeline for parts.
Hastings,
Glad to hear that your experience was better than mine. I completely agree with you on there being three sides to every story. Unfortunately no matter who's wrong or right, "perception is reality". I did not like the way they did business with me and I don't like the way they do business in general. So when a customer is not satisfied they go else where, which is exactly what I and others have done. Having dealt with their sales staff I would say that they need to do a little better screening as to who they employ. I can't even imagine how much business the "Laguna" Co. has lost because of the many who have "perceived" their customer service as uncaring , which was generated by the many real and actually failures in customer service. I spent nearly thirty years in the service industry and admittedly it took me many years to realize the value of great customer service and how it increases or decreases customer loyalty. In these days it seems mostly a lost art! OK, enough ranting I've work to do in the shop.
Danny
A different machine is what I was looking for. But four years ago, I was at the IWWF here in Southern Calif. looking for a band saw. I looked at the Grizzly, Laguna, Delta, Aggazzani, and the felder. The Felder salesman sold me on the Mini max.
Finding out all band saw were mostly made in Italy and the MM 16 which i bought was a similar machine to the felder.
I found Minimax sales team 1st class as well as the customer support.
Good for you? My slider is working wonderfully and Mini-Max support has been excellent. I just came across a 20 " 3 HP Jet bandsaw that was to good to pass up at the local Rockler store here in San Diego. They got 4 of them in and they sold quickly. I picked it up for $1299.00.
Happy Woodworking,
Danny
Yes the MM salesman lives in the area so I just needle him if I have a problem.
Yes ,I also know your local salesman Brad Tucker. He's super nice and very helpful. I went through him to purchase my saw.
hi brown
I'm in the market for a slider. thats some pretty good insight to felder. much appreciated. if you wouldnt mind a few questions...
the saw you bought is listed on their web site today for $10,395. is that in line with your final deal or are there add ons to think about?
from what I have been reading those units can be very heavy. did you need to hire a rigging company and would the saw fit through a 38" opening?
what size footprint would you consider minimum to operate the saw efficiently?
and does the sliding arm/apparatus fold out of the way when not in use?
thanks for taking the time
Mav,
Your welcome! I described my experience with Felder to the MiniMax salesman and he said that the European mentality I described is pretty much the same with them when they deal with their Italian manufacturer, but he said that their US customers are mostly sheilded from that by their salesman, which Felder seems to be having a difficult time with.
I got my unit for $8,695.00 plus 400.00 for shipping. There were no state taxes charged at that time so my final cost was about $9,100.00. It looks like the cost has gone up considerably. These were just recently on sale so I would call them to get your best deal. If you call the No. on their website they will hook you up with a salesperson and you can probably work out a better deal.
Everything comes with their saws. Long cut off fence, hold down clamp, the wedge thing to use for straightening lumber, a smaller cut off fence for when you don't want to leave on the longer one, and scoring blade. Felders prices are for the saw only and no accessories for which they charge you and arm and a leg for. I believe it weighs in at around 1250 lbs. I borrowed a friends fork lift to get it off the back of the truck,although I believe for a little extra you can arrange to have it fork lifted off the truck by the freight carrier. The unit comes on a pallet that is boxed and can only be taken off the truck with a forklift fitted with longer tines due to the extra length created by the wagon or sliding carriage. The saw will fit through a 38" door only after you take off the cardboard cover, but it will be a tight fit. You may even have to get it off the pallet to get it through the 38", as I can't remember how far out the pallet extended. I have double doors on my shop so that wasn't a problem for me. I loaded mine on two extra heavy duty furniture dollies and rolled it into the shop with the help of two others. I laid down some plywood on the dirt part of my yard so the dollies would roll and not sink into the soil and made ramps up the few inches to the shop doors. And yes the arm does fold away when you take off the fence and carriage attachment, which only takes a few minutes. You need a minimum of 20' by 13' to get full use of the longer cut off fence with the side table attached. My shop measures 28' by 21' so it's a bit off a tight squeeze when cutting full sheets. I usually have to move around a few things to make the initial break down cut,but after that it's not bad. You just have to be more efficient in the organization of your shop.
It takes some time to set up and fine tune but once you get that done it cuts very smooth and accurate. Now having said all that, have you considered buying used, as there should be more of these on the market, the way our economy seems to be going. I saw one in my area a few months ago up for auction due to a cabinet shop going out of business. You probably have a few auction Co's in your area you could check with. Good luck on what ever you decide to do. I could never go back to my regular cabinet saw, although I do use it for dadoes. Hope this helps
DannyEdited 1/20/2009 1:18 pm ET by brownman
Edited 1/20/2009 1:19 pm ET by brownman
I have a spot that measures 21 x 14.
I'm going down to the grizzly show room in PA in a few days. any thoughts on them?
it seems like nobody can beat their prices on everything else
I'm leaning towards a single phase unit since I dont have 3 phase out here, although I could work around that if I have to
Mav,
I've got several of their machines and they have been great. I took a good look at their sliders at the Vegas wood show before purchasing and they looked really great and the price couldn't be beat but they had just started making them so I didn't have a history to go on. But considering their reputation and service record on their other tools I don't think you could go too far wrong with them. I also got the single phase as it just didn't make sense to spend the extra for a phase converter. In fact I think that was one of reasons I didn't go with the Grizzly at that time was that they didn't have a single phase slider in the size I wanted.
Just curious, why didn't you at least use the $1400 to buy tooling or other accessories? If you didn't like their terms, why did you sign on the dotted line?
I just returned a S315WS. Maybe I got a lemon but mine was an absolute POS. Parts weren't machined square, build quality was terrible. Major vibration in the motor/housing. Blade marks, bad bearings. The list goes on. Oh, and parts, I had to wait 3 months for a friggin rip fence and riving knife (both weren't straight). In the end, MiniMax gave me a refund but I lost my #### in wasted time and delivery expenses.
Good luck with your saw. I hope your experience is better than mine.
Blacky,
Wow, sounds pretty bleak Blacklab. Sorry you had such a bad experience. Great idea about purchasing some accessories with my lost deposit money. Can't believe I didn't think of that then. I must have just been too upset about it all to think that smart. I also had some vibration in my saw as well, but was able to rectify it with simple solutions recommended by their tech personnel. The plastic fan that cools the scoring motor also vibrated loose and was hitting the shroud, but I was able to fix this by putting some thread lock on the shaft before pressing the fan back on. Haven't had any recurring problems with it. The vibration in the saw itself was fixed by removing the main motor mount nut and applying some thread lock and then leaving that nut a little loose. You could spend $50,000 on a slider but you'll always have to do some adjusting and fine tuning. It's just that when you get up into that price range they do the set up and fine tuning for you.
I forgot to answer your other question. I liked their saw(Felder) as I saw it on their website but when I actually saw it at the woodshow I didn't like it at all. The model I was purchasing was meant to be a combination machine,so it was full of holes where they had removed the shaper. It looked like a piece of swiss cheese. And it also had to be bolted down to keep it from tipping over when the carriage was fully extended. I know I took a gamble buy doing this before I saw it in person ,but hay it was in Vegas. Just a little pun there. But yeah I won't do that again. The vibration issue was the only one I have had and it was solved simply enough for me to be satisfied so I'm happy with the overall experience.
Felder experience
ummmmmm
Seems to me you are living in some kind of dream world, laddie
What do you suppose was the purpose of the deposit? It was a sign of good will. A sign of commitment to purchase. If you have not done your homework, don't sign a contract and don't give a deposit. Sellers take that contract and deposit as a sign that they should go ahead and start building your unit. And companies like Felder who actually build a unit to your specifications are left up s--t creek when you suddenly decide that you can get a better unit elsewhere for less. Which brings to mind the question..do SCMI/MiniMax really provide a better unit for less money? You mean you really can get more than what you pay for? my oh my
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