Replies

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Dec 18, 2011 01:43pm | #1

   Red and white oak are woods with a very prominant grain.  Any dark stain will highlight the prominance, not hide it.  There is no way to reduce the prominance except by painting.

   The way to remove a Minwax type stain is in two steps.  First use a chemical paint stripper containing methylene chloride.  Follow the directions on the label.  The second step is to minimize the remaining color by use a chlorine bleach.  A fresh bottle of Clorox will work.  Mix a solution of 5-6 parts of distilled water to one part Clorox.  Use distilled water or you may end up with stains in the wood due to the minerals in tap water.  Apply the solution heavily and keep it wet for 15-30 minutes until the color is reduced.  Now let it fully dry for at least 24 hours before attempting any new finish.

   Matching the chairs will be difficult as they were probably "stained" by spraying multiple coats of a tinted lacquer.  This process tends to look more like a paint and hides a lot of the grain.  You can test out some things on the bottom of the table.  First use a stain that seems to match the chair coloring.  After letting it dry, use a gel stain of an appropriate color get closer to a match.

1. 
   johnprose | Dec 18, 2011 11:19pm | #2

   Thanks Howie.

   I've got the chemicals and will commence in the morning. I'll be documenting the progress and I'll post it here. I need to find a professional finisher in my area and turn my projects over to them.

   John

1. 
   johnprose | Dec 19, 2011 11:51am | #3

   Stages 1 & 2 Complete

   I've completed the stripping of the stain with the chemical stripper and the bleaching of the wood. You can see the results in the two pictures. I have to say that the bleaching was a lot more impressive than I thought it was going to be.

   Tomorrow I will stain.

   Question:

   Instead of using a regular stain then a gel stain, what do you think about using a Pre-Stain Conditioner (like General Finishes) and then going right to the gel stains? My thought is that the conditioner prevents so much stain being absorbed into the "character" parts of the wood and that the gel would act more like a covering agent.

   What do you think?

   
1. 
   peter28 | Dec 19, 2011 01:33pm | #5

   John,

   You got great advice from Howie, as usual. Hammer1 gave you even more valuable advice.

   Reading your first post all I could think was you were already in trouble and beyond a finishing stand point. When a client specs the job, always make a couple of samples per those specs and have them approve it. It saves you from the situation you're now in; working for nothing.

   You are much better off doing what Hammer told you, keep or sell the table and start with a clean slate. If she wants you to keep doing it, have it in writing that it is now a time and material job. If not you have boxed yourself into a no win situation.

    What happens if you get done, get it in their home and they decide they are only going to give you a partial payment because "it's not what we expected" Don't think this can't happen either.

   Take a stand to protect yourself, sooner rather than later. If not you're going to get walked on.

1. 
   johnprose | Dec 19, 2011 03:02pm | #6

   Always Great Advice

   Yep Hammer, I know all of those things you mentioned, I just didn't give you all of the details that went on before asking the original question that I need to stay focused on:  "Minimizing red oak grain."

   Everything between the customer and I is in writing including stain samples that she selected and approved on RED OAK. I'm covered. I also have 75% payment already and won't ship until I am paid in full inculding a substantial change request fee. The best thing that could have happened is if she would have shown me the pictures of the chairs a month ago instead of after 3 strip downs.

   So, really, getting this table as close as possible to what she is looking for is the only thing I'm interested in. I'm going with the shellac and gel stain method in the morning and will keep you all posted. I'm optimistic!

   Thanks again.

   John

2. 
   hammer1 | Dec 19, 2011 11:59am | #4

   Sure doesn't look like those chairs are red oak, problem #1.

   Provincial doesn't look like the right color to match the chairs, problem #2.

   Matching older, existing colors is a challenge, problem #3.

   I've found that the Minwax water based stains don't accentuate the grain in oak as much as oil stains, much less dark and pronounced but you have some highly visible grain patterns in that table. Getting all the existing stain out of the table isn't going to be easy. Bleaches break down the wood fiber. Sanding won't remove the stain deep in the pores, even strippers may not get it all. 

   Before proceeding on the table, you should do some samples and get the customers approval, in writing. Don't forget the in writing part. I don't think you are going to have much success staying with the red oak, particularly with this customer. It's the wrong species from the look of the chairs. Even with the right species, getting the color right is difficult.

   Two ways to go. Tell her enough is enough and bail out. Remake the table in the correct species. Make samples large enough and of the same grain characteristics as the chairs to be approved.

   When you are in the business, you may go to the school of hard knocks a few times. You now know that you can't make red oak look like something it isn't. You have to cover your back by educating your customers and not let them tell you what to do. You also have to get everything in writing to protect both of you. At times, you have to make an assessment about potential clients and walk away from the ones that look like they can't be pleased and don't have any consideration for what you do. Furniture that has been finished in a production shop hasn't been done with materials you can buy at Home Depot. There may be glazes, toners and other techniques used that are more complicated. You need to be familiar with some of these when you get into matching existing items, or coming very close. What may look good in your shop can look very different in a home, with different light, angles and at night. There are the issues of oxidation and fading with older existing pieces and that is very hard to replicate on a new piece. These are all things a customer has to be educated about.

   Once you get paid for a job, you are a pro. If you don't get all your ducks in a row, you'll be working long, hard and for free, for people you don't really know. That's a loosing proposition and a hard lesson to learn. I'd keep or sell the oak table. Build one in the correct species. learn your lesson and don't let it happen again. Anything else will be a compromise and neither you or the customer will be happy. Don't beat your head aginst the wall trying to do the impossible.

3. 
   johnprose | Jan 07, 2012 09:04am | #7

   Thanks for Your Assistance!

   People,

   After bleaching the wood, applying a poly finish over the raw wood, then slowly darkening the stain with repeated (maybe 8) coats of gel stain, the customer has finally approved of the stain and grain pattern.

   I have applied 3 coats of MinWax antique Oil finish to give a soft luster as requested with a wonderful result. I get my final payment this evening and ship on Monday.

   Thanks for all of your help!

   John

   
1. 
   Westchester | Jan 07, 2012 10:21am | #8

   Matching

   John,

   I hope those 8 coats of gel stain don't cause you more issues down the road.  The chair pict was low res but it seemed the customers chairs had course grains like the table's top surface?  Learn about toning.  Possibly a little red mahogany and van dyke mixed into finish may have tweeked the table color enough in one step.  Glad you aren't behind the 8 ball with lost fees.

   One other thought - why would customer be so attached to those chairs ?  Those chairs are not right for the nice table you fabricated.  Customer could have gone over to stickley and picked up some quality chairs and 6 instead of only 4 -

   SA

1. 
   johnprose | Jan 08, 2012 10:26am | #9

   Chairs

   Sorry I wan't clear SA. The chair pictures are from an advertisement of some chairs she found on Ebay. Her point in sending me the pics was the to point out (erroneously on her part) that there wasn't any "tiger-stripping" in the pictured chairs.

   Well, we got past that with the layered stains minimizing the grain pattern of the oak and getting the coloration to her liking using 3 different blends.

   I chose multiple thin stain coats over just a couple of big ones to ease into the coloration she wanted. I tallied up about 2 1/2 hours of labor over 8 days (20 minutes per thin coat.), so no real big loss there.

   Thanks agin for the advice.

   John

1. 
   pammm38 | Jan 11, 2012 11:00am | #10

   Minimizing the grain

   I'n not a wood worker but a customer who had oak floor and trim put in. I didn't like the Stripes either when I saw the first test patch.  Staining and wiping most of it off is the problem...I know that's how your supposed to do it. But I had floor guys let the stain dry a long time before wiping off--and  try not to wipe off too much.   I did the baseboards & trim myself...we were matching the older wood work and the existing woodwork didn't have the pronounced stripes.. maybe it all darkened with age.  But I did the unthinkable-( I'm sure to you folks).  I put the stain on with a brush and let it dry , and never wiped it off. Then put clear finish over it.  it was the same minwax stain they used on the floor.  It matches very well and no super light areas that create the stripes. 

4. 
   LSUDoc | Nov 20, 2015 04:19pm | #11

   I am novice woodworker and am making a stereo cabinet using birch plywood for the carcase with a walnut face frame. Everything I have made before has been painted or antiqued but I wanted to use a red mahogany stain (Minwax) for this project. The unstained wood (plywood) had an almost imperceptable grain pattern but you are exactly correct that the dark stain brought out the grain pattern prominently with little light colored squiggly lines all over the top. I found this thread on your website and tried the last option in the thread sent by the person who simply applied a thick coat of stain with a paint brush and that has covered the grain pattern quite nicely. It is not dry yet so we will see how that works out. If it is satisfactory I will sand very lightly and apply a sealer. I presume a wipe on poly would be ok? In the future what species of plywood should I use to circumvent this problem and better match my trim pieces? Thanks.