Replies

1. 
   rocotoed | Sep 30, 2005 04:45am | #1

   I'm the owner of a DeWalt 12" miterbox, not sure of its model number. After using it to build a prosperous 5k sq. ft. house, it still has served me well in building fussy, jewel-box sized projects. All tools need occasional tweaking. And given enough use, these tools will require replacement parts. My thought is, "Why go to some esoteric, It must be better because it's so Expensive", when all these tools are just that; a tool. Look down the road--are replacement parts available locally? Will the tool importer be in business when your need for service arises? Recall that old dictum that says, "It's a poor carpenter that blames his tools", or some such. Decades ago, I was humbled by an experienced craftsman, using a $10 jigsaw, getting results that I couldn't match with my $40 saw.

2. 
   Malcolm | Sep 30, 2005 04:51am | #2

   Or why not a big Mak SCMS?

   I own an LS1013 and am always pleased to recommend Makita.

   Malcolm 

   http://www.macpherson.co.nz
1. 
   CTDurham | Sep 30, 2005 05:38am | #3

   Malcolm,

   I also own a makita 1013ls and use it practically everyday doing interior trim and I luv it.  I recently bought an irwin laser ($30) which spoils you, especially when doing crown.  The laser makes it nice but it also makes you truly wish you had a laser on the other side of the blade.  If you buy the irwin laser you will have to grind the steel ear on the safety sheild so it does not rub on the laser body.  Irwin is selling the laser and a 10" blade combo for $49 (this is the way to go)

   two other recommendations

   1.  buy a Trac-Rac T3 miter station stand($225 and worth every penny).  It looks like a single saw horse and the support arms and stop really do a nice job.

   2.  I lubricate the saw with "White Lightning" ($6/bottle lasts months) which is a bicycle chain lubricant sold in bicycle shops.  White L.... really lubricates with very minimal sawdust build-up.  Graphite seems to be just too fine a lubricant for the 1013LS.

   Two things I wish makita would revise are

   1.  I wish the makita had a taller fences so you can bed crown, no big deal though I just 2 1x6's nailed 90 deg to each other

   2.  I wish that the makita would make a bevel greater than 45 deg, at least 48 deg to accomdate 5" baseboard on an open miter with a corner less than 90 deg.

   Happy mitering

    

1. 
   MrJJ | Sep 30, 2005 06:11am | #4

   The only thing I regret with my Makita is not buying it sooner.-------------------------------
   People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.Jacob

2. 
   57robbie | Sep 30, 2005 06:53am | #5

   Thanks for the lube advice

   I've made a set of high fences (trinmmed for 90 and 45 degree cuts) and I also bought the horizontal clamp (pricy but very useful).

   The blade that came with mine (these things are configured differently for different markets) is very good as well.

   Malcolm

   Edit - I make a lot of small boxes with mitred corners, and for the first time in my long career as a boxmaker can now go straight from the saw to the clamps - that's a tremendous boon!

   Edited 9/29/2005 11:55 pm ET by Malcolm2

1. 
   CTDurham | Oct 01, 2005 05:24am | #12

   Malcolm,

   I agree that saw comes with a very nice blade, until your help accidentally cuts the movable fence performing a bevel cut.  No visual damage to the blade but the blade would bind a little bit in long crosscuts.  I took it to a saw sharpener and he tried to beat it out but to no avale.

   If you can tolerate small indents similar to a brad nailer in your boxes you would really appreciate the miter clamps that Collins Tool co. sells.

   PS don't try save a buck, buy the pliers for these clamps ($15) well worth it.

   Clark 

3. 
   dirtstirrer | Sep 30, 2005 07:04pm | #8

   CT, your Trac-Rac recommendation is a good one I think.  I finally got one a couple weeks ago, and it just works.  Built like a tank, simple to use, plus it looks good.  I do however think there coud be a couple improvents in their design.

   Mine only came with a support to the left of the saw, one to the right as well would be nice.  I think a guy can order more parts and make this happen.  I also wish the stop block could get closer to the blade.  I made an add on block for mine, but the Trac-Rac folks could have easily done that.  Not much to carp about on this stand really.  Blows the doors off the others I looked at.

    Steve

1. 
   CTDurham | Oct 01, 2005 05:13am | #11

   Steve,

   You should have received two support arms with your Trac-Rac, one on each side of the blade.  I would definetly call them no matter how long it has been since your purchase.  Just inform them that you did not know it was supposed to have 2 sliding arms and you found out this week on an internet forum.  Trac-Rac is a big company with a good reputation I feel confident they will do the right thing.

   I have 2 stops on my T3 one on the horizontal support arm and one that flips up vertically.

     Although now that you mention it I do recall having to cut many repititve small pieces and neither stop did the job.  I ended up using my crown sled butted into the T3 stop and a quickie clamp and a block of wood for the small cuts.

   Keep us posted on that second arm and it probably wouldn't hurt to mention to the Trac Rac Rep that you will post their customer service (Good or bad) on this forum.

   Good luck

   Clark

1. 
   dirtstirrer | Oct 01, 2005 06:00am | #13

   Hmmmm.....

   I'm going to their site now, thanks for the info. 

    Steve

2. 
   dirtstirrer | Oct 02, 2005 11:12pm | #22

   OK, now I'm confused.  I bought my stand from Menards, they called it the T3.  Now I don't think it's a T3 though.  It has a different saw mounting system.  I can't find a photo of anything but the T3, so I don't honestly know what I've got!  I think I got a bum deal.  This was the first impulse tool purchase I remember making, so no research, and I think I should have done the research.  I paid T3 money for it though.  What I have is a very nice stand, I think I got a good stand, but, I don't appear to have a T3.  It is a Trac Rac though.  Wierd.

    Steve

3. 
   Adrian | Oct 02, 2005 11:49pm | #23

   Wasn't there a thread here or on Breaktime recently slamming the Metabo saw?....as I recall, it was made by someone else and rebranded, and not up to the normal Metabo standard.

   gonna venture an opinion here, because of the discussion on CMS vs SCMS. I have yet to try an SCMS that had the accuracy and repeatability I look for in a saw. I think they're great tools for a jobsite, but not for a wood shop. I beleive you give up too much in the tolerances to get the sliding action.I think some of the standard CMS make the grade, but not all.

   In my school shop, I recently had a Delta saw that I was not fond of at all bite the dust. I thought about saws to replace it....and I started thinking about how often we actually use the compound ability of your standard CMS, which is not often at all. By far, most of how we use those saws is to cut at 90 deg., or simple mitre angles. Now.....this part is for anyone that was in the discussion a while ago about a 'better grade of mitre saw: why didn't they make one?'.

   I bought an OMGA MEC 300 ST. This is an Italian belt driven 2.2 HP 12" mitre saw (not compund mitre; that is available if you go to a 14" model). This is an industrial tool, and not designed for the hobbyist....but if you make a living with tools, you might consider it. A company called CTD makes similar tools. Cost about $1800 CDN....still a very small industrial tool, but in a different class from the deltas, Bosch's, Dewalts etc. We're still getting it properly set up, but so far, we're all impressed with the cut quality. I think a lot of the gain comes from not having to engineer the compound cutting ability....the whole tool can be tighter. This saw is not deisgned to be thrown out after a few years, it is made to work hard for a long time. It is not a jobsite tool, and it's not the tool for many folk on this forum....but it's worth considering (or it's big brother), if your living revolves around getting done the first time.

   For the times we need a compound mitre feature, we do have other saws around, as well as RAS's, sliding table saws, etc. I'd really have to sit and think about the last time we had to make a compound mitre cut though....doesn't come up much outside finish carpentry work.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

4. 
   dirtstirrer | Oct 03, 2005 04:18am | #24

   gonna venture an opinion here, because of the discussion on CMS vs SCMS. I have yet to try an SCMS that had the accuracy and repeatability I look for in a saw. I think they're great tools for a jobsite, but not for a wood shop. I beleive you give up too much in the tolerances to get the sliding action.I think some of the standard CMS make the grade, but not all.

   What saws did you try?  You must be doing MUCH more precise work then most of us are.  My Makita is the most accurate tool in my shop, and I've got some nice tools.  What in the world would require more accuracy and still be made of wood?  Wood is not an inert product.  It constantly moves, so if a .00001" or so makes a difference, wood probably isn't the right material to build your project out of. 

   BTW, if linear bearings are innacurate, they wouldn't be usable on knife grinders.  Every new silage chopper that I know of uses linear bearings for the knife grinder assembly.  These machines cost between $450,000 and $700,000, and you don't get a piece of junk when you spend those bucks.  My Makita uses almost exactly the same bearing setup as the chopper I'm most familier with, except the shafts are about 20" longer in the chopper. 

    

    

    Steve

5. 
   57robbie | Oct 03, 2005 04:33am | #25

   > You must be doing MUCH more precise work then most of us are.  My Makita is the most accurate tool in my shop <

   I agree. Take my most common job. Eight to 12mm thick by 100mm box parts, mitred on my LS1013, straight into the clamps, perfect 45s and invisible glue lines, and they clamp up exactly square (the lids, cut off after, will fit perfectly either way around, which means that the boxes are perfectly square). So the cuts, repeatable time after time, are also perfectly square along the length of the mitre.

   There is some technique in this. I use a high fence, clamp the pieces to the fence so they can't creep, use stops to ensure pieces are exactly the correct length, and lower the saw carefully and with just enough weight to complete the cut - smoothly.

   More accuracy - if there could be such a thing - would be surplus to my requirements.

   Malcolm

6. 
   mikegagne | Oct 03, 2005 06:04am | #26

   Malcolm and Dirstirrer, The type of miter you refer to is relatively easy to complete accurately with these machines. Where they fail is in doing miters on wide dabinet door frames say of 4-5 inches in width. As you know, most miters are not really 90 degrees but as long as they are compliments (89 degrees 30 minutes to 90 degrees 30 minutes) you will still read okay. Trying to make the SCMS do 8 miters to make a picture frame around a door panel is hit or miss with these machines. A sliding table saw with a mitering fixture (shopmade or manufactured) is the only way to get repeatability pretty regularly. Even that requires occaisional adjutment for fit.
   The culprit in my opinion is the propensity of the underpowered machine to slow in the cut causing the blade to slip out of its cut envelope and cup as it goes out of tension for a moment then flatten out as it slips back in. This causes the blade to slap the miter sides and leave a secondary cut. Often, a slight second cut can fix this issue-if- you have enough material left on the piece. A heck of a way to be making 35 custom wide frame kitchen doors. I find it frustrating to use this kind of machine for this but acknowledge it is a great way to make other types of miters both simple and compound. aloha, mike

7. 
   57robbie | Oct 03, 2005 06:31am | #27

   Hi Mike

   I guess if I was auditing a process such as you describe, I'd be asking 'how much of this problem is technique, and how much is the machine?'

   Certainly, I can imagine a sliding table technique that would be efficient (and if it were me, I'd set up the mitre gauge on my MiniMax Euro-slider and make a couple of trial frames), but I'd be interested in comparing a 2-cut SCMS technique as well.

   A traditional small shop approach would have been to cut slightly oversize and then shoot up to the the mark or up to fit, by hand on a shooting board (or maybe slice with a mitre-trimmer).

   If you were to batch-cut all your components slightly oversize on your SCMS, then finish-trim one end freehand, then set up a stop and trim the other end to the final size, you could be pretty fast - 35 x 2 plus 35 x 2 (rails plus stiles), in what? 30 mins? Less?

   Malcolm 

    

8. 
   mikegagne | Oct 03, 2005 07:00am | #28

   < traditional small shop approach would have been to cut slightly oversize and then shoot up to the the mark or up to fit, by hand on a shooting board (or maybe slice with a mitre-trimmer).>Thats the approach I tried to make work and then went to the jig on the sliding saw which really hit it dead on. Perfect complimentary cuts and due to the repeat sizes I finished 38 mitered doors in about 90 minutes. The Felder digital miter jig only costs $1900-a bargain eventually. aloha, mike

9. 
   57robbie | Oct 03, 2005 07:06am | #29

   Ok

   And the most important word in that message is ... Felder!

   Ordinary citizens will have to make do with less, and a good SCMS will be cheaper than your Felder attachment!

   Malcolm

10. 
    dirtstirrer | Oct 03, 2005 07:14am | #30

    Hi Mike.  I've never had troubles with wide miters with my SCMS.  I've made several large picture frames with no problems.  The most demanding thing I do with my saw on a regular basis is preparing the stock for bracket feet.  Those can get to be pretty big cuts on large pieces.  Never a problem there either.  I can see your point about the blade loading and unloading, but I think that a good blade can overcome a good deal of those issues.  The 1013 happens to come with a superb blade by the way.

     Steve

11. 
    mikegagne | Oct 03, 2005 07:33am | #31

    I didnt mention that I was cutting sapele and the saw would bog down in the 5 1/2 inch stock which is about a 7 3/8 wide cut through hard material. I needed a smooth cut for the fit up and had a new high quality blade on the saw. The small speed change due to the hard material created the loss of tension in the blade and then of course it slapped the miter or at least burned slightly. Annoying to say the least. The issue was compounded by the thickness of the material starting at 28mm and tapering to 18mm across its face. The Felder fixed the issue however although I had to borrow the use of it from a friend..... good friends are wonderful. aloha, mike

12. 
    dirtstirrer | Oct 03, 2005 08:45am | #32

    LOL, Felder, certainly a friend to have! 

    I must confess, I have had an issue with my Makita, but I don't think it was the saws fault.  I was cutting a western red cedar board, and that thing clamped the blade so hard it stopped the saw about 3/4 through the cut.  I had never seen that much reaction wood, so I sliced it up.  I've got one piece of the board in a corner of the shop still.  A 1"x2" piece, about three feet long flexed 5", and is still flexed.  I suppose it was dried wrong, and it was a bad piece of wood to start with.  Wood does strange stuff sometimes. 

    BTW, I've got a $250 sappelle board that will be a jewelry chest for my wife some day.  Gorgeous stuff.

     

     Steve

13. 
    mikegagne | Oct 03, 2005 08:57am | #33

    Steve, reaction wood is quite often from branch stock. Grain direction changes are usually the problem and depending on where you cut them they either do or do not react. Sighting the board will tell all-look for the whorl and note how the grain reverses. Interesting stuff wood is-like people eh? aloha, mike

14. 
    Adrian | Oct 03, 2005 02:29pm | #34

    I've used most of the more common saws at least a little bit, and I've owned lots of saws over the years....I much prefer a bigger CMS (12-15") to any SCMS I've used, but that's my preference. I've used Makita, Dewalt, Bosch, Delta, Hitachi, sliding, non-sliding, multiple models.....I've done lots of fine work with them, but found them all wanting at least a little, and when I'm in a shop and require a really precise cut, I use a tablesaw. I wouldn't say my needs are for more precision than the next guy....I wouldn't have thought so, but maybe they are, or maybe I'm looking for something specific in cut quality and never found it. Dunno.

    Anyway, I'm just pointing out that there is a another category of saw that may be worth considering for some people, and I pointed out that it probably isn't appropriate for most people on this forum. Glad you're satisfied with your Makita; I don't like their saws at all, but it comes down to personal preferences and expectations.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

2. 
   forestgirl | Sep 30, 2005 07:31pm | #9

   I notice lots of folks are eager for you to buy a slider, but so far nobody's mentioned the fact that it's 2-3X the cost of a regular CMS. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   plumbbill | Sep 30, 2005 11:02pm | #10

   I agree with ya on the price.

   If your doing 2x4   4x4 & 2x6 work then fine.

   but when you have that one cut you needed the bigger capacity everyone I know just can't belive they didn't buy a scms.

   I own 2 the dewalt 708 12" portable my a** love it but dang that thing is awkward to move around & I have a Bosch 3915 10" easier to get around.

   I think both are top notch for the $$$

   But like all things opinions vary

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 01, 2005 07:18pm | #15

   I don't disagree that a quality SCMS is absolutely the cat's meow.  It just seems funny-curious to me that when one of these threads gets fired up, there's a chorus of "buy a slider" without any disclaimer such as "if it's in your budget."  I got the Bosch 12" CMS for something like $207 on Amazon.  No way I could have afforded to pay $450-$600 for a slider.  Hence the table saw -- not as convenient, but it does the job.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   plumbbill | Oct 02, 2005 12:53am | #16

   I do agree with ya.

   I got my dewalt as part of the payment when I helped my friend build his house. I do a lot of deck construction as side jobs & doing a compound miter on a 2x10 was not practical with a table saw for me & I hated tilting my plate on my wormdrive.

   But your point is well taken & should be a consideration.

2. 
   forestgirl | Oct 02, 2005 01:47am | #17

   "doing a compound miter on a 2x10"  Yikes, I'd say not!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

3. 
   mikegagne | Oct 02, 2005 08:14am | #19

   <No way I could have afforded to pay $450-$600 for a slider. Hence the table saw -- not as convenient, but it does the job.>TS is the time honored method and still considered more accurate-obviously for longer miters, the only way. aloha, mike

3. 
   mikegagne | Oct 02, 2005 08:04am | #18

   <r why not a big Mak SCMS?I own an LS1013 and am always pleased to recommend Makita.>Entirely shameless but true........ Hitachi is good too. aloha, mike

3. 
   forestgirl | Sep 30, 2005 08:48am | #6

   Can't help you with Metabo, but I've owned the Bosch 12" CMS for about a year now and absolutely love it.  A solid, hefty machine that keeps its settings.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

4. 
   dirtstirrer | Sep 30, 2005 06:56pm | #7

   Count me in with Malcolm and CT.  Get the Makita 1013 SCMS.  I've been using mine for three years now and I have yet to find a glitch.  They are on sale at Home Depot right now too.  $50 off of a laser "upgrade" as well.  I'm not a laser guy, but it looks like a good deal if you want one.

    

   Steve
5. 
   csears | Oct 01, 2005 05:50pm | #14

   I've had tremendous experience with the Hitachi C10FSH 10" SCMS w/ laser - very accurate for crown, etc.   I replaced my 12" DeWalt which was touch to keep square after a few years of hard use.  I also bought the Hitachi stand which is a TracRac T2 - you can't beat the TracRac stands. 

   Chris

6. 
   gregb | Oct 02, 2005 08:53pm | #20

   If you want the Makita 10" SCMS others have mentioned, you can get it for $323 at Heavy Duty Tools...http://www.heavydutytools.net/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=89

7. 
   theodor | Oct 02, 2005 10:32pm | #21

   metabo in camparison with other´s mostly has the longest lasting maschines - especially when you look at bearings and heavy duty work
   they ar running very smooth
   for the handeling (outfit design) they are not the top