I’m repeatedly tempted by hand-powered mitre-boxes, e.g. the ones at Lee Valley. Does anyone have any experience with these as alternatives to electric mitre saws? I’m not much of a galoot but quick and accurate length cutting would speed things up for me, and my prime woodworking time is during our kids naptime, so quietness is of the essence!
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I own and use several vintage miter boxes, all cast iron with good sized back saws, and they can easily equal the accuracy of a chop saw or cabinet saw and miter gauge. I have only used the modern style box similar to the ones the sold by Lee Valley a few times and I found that they weren't as accurate as my old boxes.
I would suggest that you try the box sold by Lee Valley, if you don't like it, they have a very liberal return policy.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
I have more than a couple of hand miter boxes, as well as a Dewalt electric. Yes, you can equal the cut of a hand miter box with an electric, however for real accuracy, you will need to use a shooting board. Quite frankly, I can cut with a cross cut hand saw and use a shooting board as quick (if not quicker) than the miter box. A miter box is more of a carpenter's tool than it is a cabinetmaker.
Julian
I have a hand mitre "box" made by Ulmia, a German company. It comes in various sizes and is excellent. The saw guide has built in stops at 22 1/2, 30, 45, 60, 90 degrees. The blades are available for both metal and wood. The cut is accurate enough to glue up without a shooting board, though I would not ever tell anyone not to use a shooting board. The body of the setup is a solid casting. The casting is attached to a wood base that can be clamped or screwed to a bench.
I have no experience with any of the others makes mentioned, but the general comment I will make is that it is critical to purchase only a solid machine with saw guides that keep the saw straight, without sway, while cutting. JL
Bonjour JL,
Is there a North American distributor or retailer for the Ulmia miter box? Sounds good to me.
-Andy
One thing to think about is a hand miter box's ability (or lack thereof) to cut just a sixteenth of an inch off the end of a board.
I used to use a Miller's Falls hand miterbox to cut interior trim in houses. It worked great if I cut the wood right the first time. But if I ever cut something just a bit too long it took a lot of planing to remove the last little bit. The sawblade wasn't capable of cutting that close to the end of the board without tipping off the end.
With a powered miter saw you can essentially vaporize a thirty second of an inch off the end of a board with no problem whatsoever. And the finish of the cut is superior to what you get with a hand saw as well.
I'm not criticizing hand miter saws. I used one for years successfully and love them for their accuracy and quietness. But this is one quirk about them that I could never overcome. Yes, planing a too-long piece worked in the end. But when you're on a deadline and need to get trim up in order to make your wage it was a waste of time that detracted from the bottom line. And the problem was solved when I purchased my first powered chop box...
Zolton
Zolton
That is where the trimmer (Lion Trimmer is one trademark) comes into play. It can take a shaving so thin that you can see through it.
It is unfortunate, but true, that in order to make it in this "do it faster or you will never work for me again" world, we need to find ways to please the customer and the boss...so hand tools disappear and machines reign on site and in the shop. I bought the Ulmia mire box (machine) when I once needed to do an install where I could not make any dust. The client could not tolerate even a little. So the complete job was done with hand tools. It did not take all that much longer than it should have, but it was an experience, to say the least...one I was glad to have had in our crazy world of "faster is better" (which it isn't all the time). JL
Jeanlou ,
I owned a Lion trimmer once, a long time ago. Mine had been dropped, however, and the broken "wing" had been brazed up a little bit off true. I guess that's why I was able to purchase it so cheap at the auction! Didn't see the brazing until I had the thing home and started cleaning it up.
I can understand how this machine can make perfectly smooth miter joints. It would be a good thing to have in a picture framing shop, to be sure. Mine worked, to a degree. But that degree was about 46 instead of 45. It sure made a clean cut though. Sold it at a yard sale, with a caveat posted on it.
Zolton
Zolton
Pity about the trimmer being off. It is a beautify tool. I use it whenever I need to tweak miter cuts and am amazed every time I remove a super thin shaving. JL
You probably didn't know that the stop pins for the wings on your miter trimmer are adjustable over a range of several degrees, allowing you to set it to cut exact 45 degree angles.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworkiing Magazine
John,
My Lion Trimmer must have been a very early model with no adjustments with regard to the pins. They were just drilled through the wings and into the base and fitted tightly in the holes of each. What was there was what you had to live with.
The problem was that the base had been broken and then was brazed up a little bit off, so what should have been 45 degrees (using the pins in the adjustable wings) was either more than that or less - I don't recall exactly.
Zolton
I can't say for sure about the machine you had, but all of the ones I have seen, including quite old ones, were adjustable and on some it wasn't obvious that the adjustment was there.
The stop pin was drilled into the perimeter of a disc about a 1 1/4" in diameter set into the trimmer's table . By loosening a screw the disc could be rotated and the pin's position shifted. On some trimmers the disc could be hard to see through the patina built up on the cast iron base and the screws that would be loosened to shift the disc were on the underside of the machine.
John W.
Does anyone know -- are Lion Miter Trimmers still being made?
All the retailers' websites listen on the Lion site indicate that the product is not available. How does the Lee Valley miter trimmer compare to the Lion?
-Andy
It is still being made. There is a list of suppliers on the website, http://www.lionmitertrimmer.com.
ThreePuttJoe,What I meant to say was that I went through the list of suppliers. All of the suppliers with websites indicate that the product is not available (or no longer available). Lion has not responded to an email inquiry that was sent days ago. So, I'm wondering if the company went under -- does anyone know for sure, one way or another?
-Andy
I had a phone number for them and only got an answering machine when I called, no body has gotten back to me 24 hours later so I suspect that they may have shut down. If I hear more I'll post it here.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
It is now Sept. 2007, and I've strongly encouraged a colleague to get a genuine Lion Trimmer, and we have come up with a blank wall. Has anyone determined whether Lion has gone out of business yet?It was at least encouraging to locate this discussion, and I'll search to see if the issue has come up subsequently.But any info would be helpful, including, in the worst-case scenario, opinions on machines made by other manufacturers.Owen Daly
here they are:
http://www.lionmitertrimmer.com/
That website is still floating, but the listed retailers do not carry the item, and no one responds to emails. I would like to have one of these, too, but have had no luck finding them.
-Andy
Edited 9/4/2007 7:50 pm ET by VTAndy_
Andy,
Pootatuck CorporationP.O. Box 24Windsor, VT 05089(802)674-5984
Found this on Sawmill Creek, but it's old (2001). Also found that as of 2003 they were in Lynn, MA. Might try looking for Pootatuck Corp.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
ah i c .... looks like they might be defunct.. too bad... as far as imported version goes, I have an old AMT version that works like a champ...course AMT is out of business too... Lee Valley has one that looks identical to mine and the Lion. You may have to go that route
Lion Trimmer? Hope that thing has loooong handles! OK, sorry, I'll actually be helpful now. There are a couple on eBay:http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&_trksid=m37&satitle=Lion+miter+Trimmer&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search
That would really be too bad. I suspect though that there would be some NOS around. I saw one on the shelf at Berland's House of Tools (Palatine, IL) not too long ago. I am sure you could find a new one if you looked around. If they went under, it couldn't have been too long ago. Speaking of which, I should probably try to locate an extra set of blades. I guess making one single specialty product that costs $300 isn't really that profitable.
John,
On my Lion trimmer (actual USA one) the pins were in holes that were drilled offset, giving the adjustment. The first Lion trimmer I saw (maybe thirty, thirty-five years ago) was old as the hills at that time and the pins were mounted in the same fashion.
I beleive you are correct in stating the pins are adjustable, just maybe not so obvious at first glance!
T.Z.
John,
Dang it! I never even saw an adjustment like that. And I had a cheap Lion, paid for, and it could probably have been adjusted to accommodate the error the brazing introduced...
Too late. I'll know next time..Thanks for the interesting information. I learn stuff here.
Zolton
Andy
I posted an answer to your question earlier, and now I do not see it, so here it is again, with a little more info.
I purchased this item at "Gentmantel", in Montreal. I believe it is called Gentmantel and sons now.
10085 BOUL ST LAURENTMONTREAL, QC, CanadaH3L 2N5
Téléphone: (514) 388-4060 Télécopieur (fax): (514) 388-4082
They used to be, and maybe still are, the major supplier of woodworking machinery, tooling and other related items to the mid sized furniture making industry. When the two brothers that owned the company passed away, their kids, who had been involved before, took over the company. They started to also cater to the part time woodworkers.
The founder, grandfather of the present owners, was a wood carver from Germany. That is why they also always had a good supply of carving tools and accessories and German hand tools... JL
If ever you are in Montreal, check them out. JL
JL,
Thanks for the address and info on Gentmantel. I'd heard of them before but didn't realize that they were the Ulmia dealer in Montreal, which isn't too far from where I live. Thank you for giving me another good reason for an excursion to a city that my family enjoys visiting!
-Andy
Consider a miter trimmer. The good ones are pretty expensive, but it is a really cool tool, and about as accurate as you can get. Also very quiet.
I have one of the better sliding compound miter saws. I also have one of those cheap yellow plastic miter boxes that they sell at the big box stores.
For small jobs, the slider stays home, and I use a hand saw on the tailgate of my pickup.
Just today I trimmed two rooms using the yellow box.
Quality is dependent not on your tools, but on you.
Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now. And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.
Thank you all for your very helpful replies. I've asked a few questions on this forum and never fail to get great replies. Much appreciated, especially the replies that encourage me to save my money and practice!
Like any hand saw, being sharp is very important and fleeting. If the teeth of the blade touch any metal, by being set in the box too deep, or tipping the saw too much, or banging something when put away, you'll need a new blade. It takes quite a bit of effort to use the hand miter box, the box and the lumber have to be held securely. The miter boxes are limited in capacity and their accuracy can waiver with the user as well as the blade. If you are trimming houses and doing installations, nothing is precise. Getting a perfect 45° won't help if you need 45.735°. In cross cutting wide, flat boards, the saw blade is essentially flat on the boards surface. This isn't very effective in cutting. You can only get so much under the blade, also. If the blade is dull or nicked, it will run in a vertical cut. Getting a 45° that is also 90° really depends on the condition of the blade. In the olden days, we had no electricity on job sites. It would take two blades to trim a small house with small pine trim. Personally, I like the weight of the Stanley and Millers Falls back saws compared to the Euro style. If seemed to take less effort than the extra pressure you had to apply to the bow saw type blades.
With hand miter boxes, it can help if you can cut with either hand. As long as the blade is good, you can get a fairly nice cut but it won't compare to an electric saw in any way. A low angle block plane is a good partner for a hand miter box. You can also use it with a shooting board.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
That depends on your need for the saw and what type of cuts you will be making. The hand saw miter boxes will do everything that the big compound miter saws can do but often with much more difficulty (espesially with the extreme cuts). If you are good, a handsaw can be used for any cut and other handtools can be used to "tweak the joint". I am constantly using some hand cutting tool to adjust a cut/miter/joint, striving for perfection. That said, my compound miter saw is the piece of equipment that I depend upon most often for the important cuts. I am VERY familiar with it and comfortable with using it in many situations. What is the answer to the question? well.... experience will tell you most what tool you require for the circumstance. One thing that neophytes take a while to learn is that it is not the tool, it is the person using the tool! Everyone eventually figures that out. (but good tools help a lot!)
I have the Professional Miter Box Lee Valley sells and find it to be a good tool. I have cut rough 4x6 oak with it and used it for fine miter frames. It's a good tool and the variety of blades make it a staple in my shop. I also have a 12" Makita SCMS that I like very much. For what you describe as your needs I think you will find the LV tool satisfactory.
Dale
http://www.wardprobst.com
I think LV sells Nobex.
They're good.
Julian:
Don't know the brands (some are in Dad's workshop 800 miles away, and one is in the workshop at my cabin 1300 miles away), but grew up using hand miter boxes with big backsaws. Actually, Dad also has a very small one for use with a razor knife in model building. IN general, they work very well. Some of the ones we have had were iron, and some were simply wooden. With a sharp saw, and care that the work is held down tightly, you can do very fine work.
I now have a different model, with a tensioned blade and suspended frame. I have not yet set it up and can't saw for sure how it will work. I "think" it is a Jorgensen, but will have to look. Some time in the next week or so I'll let you know how well it works.
Joe
I can appreciate yer dillema.
First you might see a stanley 50, including with a real good mitre saw and even if it's dull, and you learn to sharpen it, you may find it ain't even sufficient to trim even the most basic 2.25" moulding.
That will be the start of yer collection.
Burned a tad, but grateful for the experience you may see a substantially larger mitre box, along with a 4" backsaw, and yu may add that to yer collection, but it may transpire that about that time you realize that the depth stops are missing, the lenght stops are missing, and it too gets relegated to yer collection.
There may be a few stops along the way before you realize that they actually made 6" backsaws, and the truely complete mitrebox not only has the saw, but also has the little gizmo that attaches to the backsaw to trip the "drop"
At this point you either got 5 or 6 mitre boxes and mismatched saws in yer collection, or you've done yer homework and selected a complete unit . I paid for my education. You can with a little diligence get yers for free on-line.
the application of these neander buddies?
I use my bestest mitre saw in cases where I cannot raise dust. No where else. Even though I have, as you guessed, several mitre boxes and a couple of mitre trimmers , the normitic chop saw or scm saw is the instrument of productivity. and most direct route to accuracy.
There are also other secrets of the carpentric universe to be delved from searching for info on mitre boxes.
Eric
,
I'm repeatedly tempted by hand-powered mitre-boxes..
I have and use it on occasion. A NOBEX Proman (Made in SWEDEN) Never fails for me if and when I use it!
I think I got mine at Rockler.
I got mine at Lee Valley. Use it all the time. The cuts come out flat, even and true. I rarely need to go to the chuting board afterwards.
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