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I,m building a mission style bed with 3″ posts out of 7/8 quarter sawn material. I,ve planned a mitre lock for the posts(Tage Frid);or would it just be easier to buy a 45 degree lock mitre router bit and be done with it. I’m woundering if anybody has worked with the mitre lock joint? and with what kind of success.
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Replies
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I have had good success, But with a large shaper and power feeder. This type of joint need a vary consistant run you cant fudge a slite bobel. I am not familer with the Tage Frid way so I cant comment, but I would cut all 4 sides at 46* and tape them together. I use regular blue masking tape with great results.
Chris
*enji,Since most of the furniture that I do is Mission, I am a little confused about where exactly you are using a mitred lock joint. Unless you are trying to build up the posts to 3" square (which is an approach that I personally would not use). Since the joinery for Mission furniture is predominately mortise and tenon. Not familiar with Frid's method you refer to but very familiar with mitred lock joints. If you could be a little more specific it would help me.Generally speaking, Chris is correct about the importance of a consistent and accurate run, don't under stand the 46 degrees though as the sum is equal to 368 degrees. Not aware of anybody who manufacture 46 degree mitre lock bits, mine are 45 degrees. Speaking of accuracy, you might want to double check the thickness of the oak; all the 4/4 stock that I have ordered over the years is actually 13/16" + or - 1/32", unless you had it milled to 7/8" or did it yourself.
*enji,Ran out of edit time. Have studied your post and Chris's. The only logical reason that I can come up with for using this joint is to make the posts appear to be solid. If this is the case, I strongly recommend against this approach.IMHO, the only satisfactory mitre joint to be used on a structural element is the blind dove tail mitre, sometimes referred to as the "secret mitre". From a time point of view this is not practicle as the only way that they can be cut is by hand. Since you don't mention the size of the bed, I am going to assume it is "queen" sized. The weight of the mattress and box springs alone will be exerting significant forces, not to mention the weight of the users and the other forces that will be exerted. The tongue on the appropriate bit will be at most 1/4" deep, and the opposing forces (static) are at 90 degrees. If you are using oak this worsens the problem due to the open grain. That is the not so obvious.The most obvious question would be: How are you planning on joining the headboard, foot board, and side rails to 7/8" thick stock?Dano
*Gluing up four pieces to make a post is a time-honored way of making Arts and Crafts furniture so that quartersawn grain will show on all four sides. Stickley also ocassionally veneered over solid stock to achieve the same effect, but most often posts were made from four pieces.The lock miter router bits work well (shaper cutters work well too) but your stock needs to be meticulously prepared - very straight and very flat. These bits are for use only in a router table and I'd use feather boards on the fence and in the slot to make sure that the pieces run through without a hitch.Use hide glue for the glue up as PVA is too prone to creep and the glue joints are critical on a post of this kind.Make sure that the lock miter bits you order will work on the same thickness of stock that you plan to use.
*Charles, hate to rain on your parade but...I have yet to see any thing written about Mission or Stickley built furniture using enji's approach to bed posts. As his, enji's, method will create a hollow post of insufficient strength as mentioned in my last post. It is perfectly acceptable to face glue carefully selected quarter sawn stock to build up posts, and in fact was and is still common. Since Mission furniture is traditionally darkly stained and the rays facing the viewer, this method makes it almost virtually impossible to tell if it was built up or not. Further more, it violates the entire philosophy of the Arts and Crafts movement, which Stickley was a disciple of and the primary leader of the movement when it reached American shores in the late 1890's as does veneering. The lack of excessive ornaments and exposed joinery were supposed to make the furniture more "honest". Stickley said that oak, the style's preferred wood, adapts to the simplicity of Mission style, and that simplicity "exposes the natural character of the tree". Suggested reading: "An American Bible" by Elbert Hubbard, founder of the Roycroft crafters' community and any copy of Stickley's Craftsman magazine.Dano
*Whether or not joining four narrow sections to make a large post is true to type regarding Arts and Crafts construction techniques is a discussion I'm not going to get into. But I don't see that enji is asking to do something that could be construed as technically unreasonable, nor even unsound. The mitred joint he is looking to make can be done with a lock mitre, slit feather (loose tongue and groove) or perhaps even more simply with biscuits, particularly if he has access to a biscuit jointer like the DeWalt that registers from the outside corner. Presumably there will be mortices required, and these might well be accommodated by gluing and screwing internal oak blocking where needed prior to assembly of the post. A bit of grain matching for the blocking would help. I've used exactly these techniques myself in the past, and I'll probably do so again sometime. Sliante.
*I'll get around to looking up a reference, but I can assure Danford that this was a common technique used to build Arts and Crafts and Crafstman style pieces. I'm almost positive that FW has done an article on this in the past.
*I'm just finishing four 4-piece lock miter glue ups 80" long. If you do it, make extra pieces, Rip the edges off, and use the edges as clamping cauls. Don't try to glue more than one board at a time. One of my pieces didn't go together perfectly, so I set the TS blade at 4* and cut a 80" shim off the edge of a board so the shim tapered from 0 at one edge to 1/16" at the other, put that in the gap, glued clamped and sanded. The "repair" is invisible.
*Guys,Not trying to start an argument, just going by my own personal experience, how I was taught, and the meager references that I have in shop. FWIW, with the exception of Sgian, no one else as addressed the obvious question of joining the side rails, head and foot boards to hollow 7/8" thick posts.Dano
*There is only about 1/4" of hollow space in one of these legs. It's not some vast chasm. Build one and take a look at the cross section.
*Visualize a through tenon - pretty common animal on Arts and Crafts pieces.
*i Whoops, I gave bad information, so I've deleted my old post. It should have read,I really can't see an argument worth having here. My ability with fractions is not good, but by my reckoning a 3" post made of 7/8" stock will have a hole in the centre 1-1/4"± square. A bit of localised 1-1/4"± square blocking to suit will probably be fine for the cutting of any mortices and the mounting of side rail hardware.Personally, I think I'd rather find a bit of 14/4 or 16/4 oak and plane the stuff to size for this job, and if it was 16/4 I'd probably increase the leg size a bit to save waste; it would seem to be a lot less work, but that's just me. My choice isn't right or wrong, and maybe enji doesn't have some nice thick oak to hand, and can't locate some, and maybe even if he/she(?) has the material, maybe the tools are not available to handle it, and maybe enji wants all quarter sawn grain, or all plain sawn grain showing on the faces. Sliante.
*Dano, I'm puzzled over this bit of your post no. 3,i "IMHO, the only satisfactory mitre joint to be used on a structural element is the blind dove tail mitre, sometimes referred to as the "secret mitre". From a time point of view this is not practicle as the only way that they can be cut is by hand." I'm puzzled because the secret mitred dovetail is used primarily for joining the end of one plank to the end of another isn't it, like the corners of a cabinet? I don't see how it has any application in joining the mitred long grain of four planks to make a columnar structure. Did you just get off on the wrong foot there? That happens to me sometimes too, so you can admit it without shame; see my later deleted post (well, don't see actually) for an example. ;-)I also can't see why a box spring is a necessary element in a craftsman style bed. The box spring can be- but doesn't have to be- replaced with slats (or other support) spanned between the side rails, usually with a tie bar running down the length. Some would add a central foot, but I've never seen the need if the slats are stout enough. Sliante.
*enji,These are my final thoughts here and please understand I'm only trying to help. Firstly, I don't need to build the post as Charles suggested to determine how big the hollow is. I did a full scale drawing and Sgian's math is correct. I did a considerable amount of research last night on all that I have regarding Mission style furniture, Stickley, over a hundred different plans that I have collected over the years, and the Arts and Crafts movement. I could not find anything showing built up posts as you are attempting to do. Charles was correct in pointing out that building up was acceptable, this was done, as I pointed out, by face gluing. I did not find one piece that had a mitre joint of any kind. What is also interesting is that I went through some of my basic wood working books and Ernest Joyce's "The Encyclopedia of Furniture Making" and could not find a reference to the mitre lock joint. Now I know, of course, that they exist. The point being is that my guess is that this is a joint invented by some router bit manufacturer and was not even conceived of in the 1890s.I am not saying that you can't do this, after all, you can do whatever you want. You asked for advice and I gave you some based on my 40 years experience in working with wood and close to 20 years in cabinet and Mission Style furniture making. If everyone agreed here it would get pretty boring.FWIW, the whole issue of Arts & Crafts, Mission, and Prairie has become kind of muddy and confusing over the years. In short Arts & Crafts is in fact not a style, but it was a philosophical movement with extremely strong religious over tones. It was started by William Morris in the later part of the 19th century England, Oxford to be precise. The Mission Style was heavily influenced by this movement and pertains primarily to furniture, Prairie Style relates more to architectural elements and Frank Lloyd Wright was the founder of this style, there is some overlap. I could write a book on this subject, so I stick to the very basics here. If you are really interested in the Mission Style and the philosophy behind it, feel free to e-mail me at my personal address.Dano
*Sgian,No I didn't get off on the wrong foot. I was speaking in very general terms and from a strength point of view, should have been a little more specific. Was trying to point out the simple fact that the secret mitred dovetail is the strongest of all mitred joints. Wouldn't even consider using the joint on a bed post, just as I wouldn't consider using a mitre lock joint.:)Every single one of my clients that I have ever built a bed for has a box spring mattress and a regular mattress on top of that. FWIW, I do use slats. In fact, every one I know sleeps on a mattress that is on top of a box spring mattress. Could something have been lost in the language difference, i.e. "hood" vs. "bonnet"?;)Dano
*I don't profess to be an expert on this but I'll chime in anyway. I recall seeing in a magazine, FWW perhaps, a cross section of one of Stickly's, or Greene's, legs similar to that which is being discussed in this thread. The article detailed how the leg was made and an improvement in the technique on making one today. The original was glued up out of four pieces of 1/4 white oak with what I would describe as a modified lock miter joint. This joint was probably a precursor to the modern lock miter joint. Both legs have a hollow running down the center. The original joint was said to be a little fussy in clamping, while a lock miter bit joint is a bit more cooperative. If someone has the time they could search the FWW archives and see if the answer is sitting right in front of us. Bob
*Sgian,In Americanese a box spring mattres is the "platform" on which the mattress is placed on top of.Dano
*Dano, Exactly. The same as the UK divan, some of which have legs, and some can have a separate wheeled metal frame under. Some are very deep, and some are less so, but I usually get rid of the lot and lay the mattress directly on the slats, or whatever spans between the side rails. It allows for a narrower side rail because I don't have to hide the divan/ box spring/ box spring mattress, or whatever we want to call it! I think we're both on the same page, aren't we? We seem to have hijacked enji's thread. Sorry enji. Sliante.
*Sgian,We are now, everyone I know put's 'em on the slats too. As for highjacking enji's thread, he doesn't appear to have been back with any further questions or comments. Beginnig to think we all wasted some time here.Dano
*Waste of time? Doubtful Dano. There are probably 99 lurkers to 1 contributor, including FW editors according to another thread I lurked about in, ha, ha, so the chances are somebody apart from, or as well as, enji got something out of it all. Sliante.
*Sgian,Good point, never thought of it that way. As for the thread that you were lurking about in, might I be familiar with it?:)Dano
*I thank you all for the information it has been very helpful and will be using some of your suggestionenji
*Er, yes, I think so, unless you have a very short memory. Sliante.
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