Replies

1. 
   saucyg | Jan 21, 2004 11:49am | #1

   Hi PJ,

   So you say it's a wee bit damp in the shop? Are there any other signs of dampness in your shop? Do your tools develop rust easily? The building you described sounds like it could be with the concrete block walls and concrete floor. Is the concrete sealed? What are the conditions like in the shop when you're not in it and using the heater(stove)? What are the conditions like in the evening?

   I know what you mean about damp weather. I was born in Ireland and now live in Seattle, WA. The weather is about identical.... but that's about it.

   Cheers,

   G

   Ten men cross a bridge into a village.... or is it ten men cross ten bridges into ten villages?

1. 
   PhilipOrr | Jan 21, 2004 12:50pm | #2

   Hi G,

   Tools in the shop will rust if I do not wax them now and again and sometimes there is condensation on some walls. The walls are sealed with masonary paint but the floor is unsealed. When not working in the shop at this time of year it does feel quite damp.

   Thanks for the interest.

   PJ

1. 
   saucyg | Jan 21, 2004 02:07pm | #3

   PJ,

   I would consider sealing the floor, either with some sort of floor paint (if you bring vehicles into the building) or you could treat yourself to a wood panel floor layed over wood strips. You could put a plastic moisture barrier underneath (across the whole floor) and even some sorts of insulation between the strips and under the floor. The whole thing doesnt have to be very thick if ceiling height is an issue. I would also review the status of any weather stripping (or lack of weather stripping) around doors and windows. If the building has a garage door that isnt insulated you can get an aftermarket insulation covering that will help too. If the windows are not well sealed you could make insulated panels to cover them and "plug up" that opening while the shop is not in use. Aside from insulating and sealing everything and trying to maintain as consistent a temp in the shop as possible, I might also suggest that if you are building something for the house that you put the stock you are going to use in the house for a period of time first. Of course another issue may be the location above the fireplace and something related to temperature swings there. If this is an isolated problem perhaps it's just a freak incident, improperly glued joint, or strange wood movement. In fact, it seems to me that many have said that glue will create a bond stronger than wood so why wouldn't the wood break before the tenon came loose ?

   Hope something here might help or that this dialog prompts others to jump in. Good Luck.Cheers,

   G

   "Never Look outside of yourself for the blame." - Depak Chopra

1. 
   PhilipOrr | Jan 22, 2004 12:39pm | #6

   G,

   Thanks for the replys. I will start to seal up the draughts around the garage and insulate the roof and doors.

   What was the reasoning behind sealing the floor or putting in a false floor?

   Again thanks for your interest.

   PJ

1. 
   saucyg | Jan 22, 2004 02:07pm | #7

   PJ,

   The reasoning behind sealing and/or insulating the floor as well as potentially covering it with wood (such as plywood) is two-fold. The reason to seal it is to keep moisture vapors from rising through the concrete slab. This can be achieved by covering with plastic or I'm sure there are paint on finishes that will achieve a real seal. If plastic is used it should be large enough to cover the ENTIRE floor or seams should be taped. You would want to be sure the plastic got was suitable and effective for this purpose. The reasoning for putting down wood strips and/or insulation panels covered by a wood floor would further insulate the room as well as give you a more comfortable surface to work and stand on. A floor like the one I described has "spring" that concrete does not which is easier on your legs and back as well as your tools and project parts if you accidentally drop them. It's the same principle behind anti-fatigue mats. You dont have to be "old" to appreciate this either. I'm only 32 but my back gives me trouble from time to time, and I notice it particularly when I stand on a concrete floor for a few hours.

   Of course if space and budget are not a concern you could always do something like this....  http://www.woodmizer.com/kilns/kilns.html

   Cheers,

   G

   "Focus on results"

2. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 21, 2004 07:49pm | #4

   Any way you could show us a picture of the joint?  Or maybe a hand drawn diagram illustrating the frame and where the joint was?  I'm wondering if maybe it was glue failure.

   Here in Houston TX one has to learn to live with humid conditions.   Everything you build out of wood here will shrink when moved into the house.  You have to plan accordingly.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

1. 
   PhilipOrr | Jan 22, 2004 12:32pm | #5

   Planewood,

   The joint was 2 rails 3"x3/4"wide, but the tenon width was only1 1/2" wide. Basically what has happened is the 2 shoulders have shrunk in width and then on one of the joints it looks as if the glue has now failed. I could not make the tenon any wider due to a front moulding and a rebate in the back of the mirror.

   On reflection if I had been able to reduce the moisture content to about 9-10% I may have been able to get away with it.

   The only way I know to do this would be to build a conditioning cabinet with a dehumidifier  and place wood in there until the desired MC is reached, and then place it back in whenever I am not working on it.

   I do not know what  effect there would be on the wood with the constant changing in moisture between the times when I am working with it and when it is in the cabinet.

   Thank you very much for your Interest and information.

   PJ