Replies

1. 
   Bogart | Oct 28, 2005 04:17pm | #1

   I used the carnoil and thought it was great. First used blo and then 3 coats of carnoil. Nice satin finish at that point. Easy on easy off.

2. 
   jerrymayfield | Oct 28, 2005 06:45pm | #2

   According to the MSDS it is 35% turpentine,30%linseed oil about 2% naptha and the rest wax and metallic dryers. The price I saw was $13.95 for 18 ounces.It appears to be another madison avenue ad campaign for another unneeded product. If you like the look use linseed oil from one of the borgs and any wax with a littlt MS added to soften . Much cheaper.

   Regards
   Jerry

1. 
   WillGeorge | Oct 28, 2005 10:11pm | #3

   It appears to be another madison avenue ad campaign for another unneeded product.And then she walked onto the dance floor with a Wonder Bra,,,

1. 
   Kevin | Oct 30, 2005 09:08pm | #8

   Ha ha!! That is your best one-liner to date!

    

2. 
   BrianCain | Oct 29, 2005 05:54am | #4

   I would have to disagree a little. I bought the Montour Carnoil and their fast drying linseed oil online (unfortunately have to pay shipping unless/until it's in stores) and thought it was definitely one of the few new products that is necessary and useful. Not sure where you got your info but it sells for $11.75 online and is 22 ounces so maybe we're talking about different products.  It dries very fast and seals the end grain really well. Very nice, natural satin finish. Much much better than regular linseed oil finished with wax. As for the msds, not sure this would be as easy to make as you describe. I've made a lot of my own wood finishing mixtures and I don't think I could replicate this by simply mixing linseed oil, ms and wax. Have to agree that there are too many new (crappy) products on the market at too high of a price but the Carnoil is definitely not one of them in my opinion. Highly recommend this stuff -- I find it's best on darker woods like cherry, mahogany and walnut.

   Brian

1. 
   jerrymayfield | Oct 29, 2005 05:30pm | #5

   The woodworkers shop has 18 ounces on sale for $11.75 regularly $13.99 they say.We are talking about an oil finish that offers very little,if any protection,adding wax doesn't help. If you use BLO(with metallic dryers,wipe off the excess,as they suggest,you will have fast drying BLO,but it is still just oil.I,m sure you are familiar with japan dryer.
   By the way their finishing wax (whatever that means) is 65% turpentine. Regards
   Jerry

1. 
   BrianCain | Oct 30, 2005 07:35am | #6

   Not familiar with the Woodworkers shop. I bought mine online and it says 22 oz. Not sure why you said it was $13+ when they sell if for $11.75, which you apparently knew. You must work for their competition because that's not very intellectually honest -- especially when you've never even tried the product.

   Anyway, oil and wax aren't the best protection but that's not why we use them. If I was just looking for the most protective finish, then I would just use a polyurethane varnish. I don't think it purports to be that type of protection so I'm not sure why you're busting on a product that you haven't used and that doesn't purport to be that protective. I guess you are just spouting off based on the MSDS -- pretty easy to do with any product. I think you would be surprised if you actually tried it rather than forcasting the results based upon a review of the MSDS. I've had water spills on furniture finished with Carnoil that have left no visible sign of water entry which is pretty amazing for an oil/wax based finish. (I guess there's something in there that you didn't see in the MSDS). As for their finishing wax, check the percentage of thinner in any furniture wax and the garbage they add to most of them. At least the Montour products aren't filled with paraffin like most and actually reveal the thinning agent.

   Quite honestly, I'm a traditional finishing type of guy and don't fall for fads but I have to seriously disagree with you on this one. Yes, their linseed oil finish could probably be replicated with oil and thinner (and Japan Drier) if you wanted to go through the trouble of experimenting. But, even if you were correct, can you imagine the quantity of oil, wax, thinners and driers you would have to go through to get the right consistency, finish and drying time? Have you ever tried to combine linseed oil and carnauba wax? I have, and what you get is a mush of oily crystals. Trust me, I've actually used the Carnoil product and you would spend a lot more than $11.75 trying to replicate it. Why such a fight against this stuff? Yes, there are a lot of Madison Avenue products out there, but this isn't one of them, at least from my experience.

   Brian

    

1. 
   jerrymayfield | Oct 30, 2005 05:03pm | #7

   http://www.woodworkersshop.com
   I entered montour finishes (firefox browser) and that is what i got. The prices are from their site as i stated.I was able to express my opinion without without any personal remarks. I don't now nor have I ever worked for anyone who has any connection to the finishng business in any manner at all. Check their site and see what they show. I don't have any connection to them either.jerry

2. 
   BrianCain | Oct 30, 2005 11:17pm | #9

   Yes, I see they have it listed as 18 oz. Not sure why that is. Sorry if my remarks seemed personal, they were not, I just happen to like the product and couldn't see how you had an opinion about the Carnoil product without actually trying it. An MSDS tells you nothing actually. Having said that, I'm always on the lookout for products that purport to be great when they are just your standard workshop mixes so I know roughly where you're coming from.

   Brian

3. 
   Kevin | Oct 31, 2005 07:14am | #10

   I've never used this product and venture absolutely no opinion one way or the other on it's suitability for whatever it's being used for. But, I cannot agree that an MSDS tells you nothing. I find the exact opposite to be true. Knowing what is in a product along with a basic understanding of organic chemistry can tell you a great deal about the product... a lot more than the advertizing slogans or slick salesman will.

4. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 31, 2005 05:23pm | #11

   I will agree with the the idea that the MSDS contains useful information,   Carnoil is a bit unusual in that it includes turpentine instead of the more typical mineral spirits.  Still, diffences among brands within a category are apparently not very great (though not non-existent) according to some which have done the comparisions, such as Bob Flexner in his Understanding Wood Finishing (now available in a revised and updated 2005 edition.) 

   What is not true is that finish manufacturers have some sort of trade secrets to protect from competitors.  Ingredients can easily be determined by chemical analysis, a capability available to any coatings manufacturer with the technical sophistication to do more than mix by hand and and fill containers. What is being protected in the knowledge that consumer clear finishes are all so much alike.  The entire goal of marketing commodity products is to make the consumer believe it is not a commodity.  ((Making a finish smell different by using turpentine instead of mineral spirits is likely more important than the minor differences in solvent power. 

   Frankly I can't get worked up over any oil/wax mixture.  Wax is purely a cosmetic factor, with minimal protective factors (unless applied in a thick, unbuffed coating).  Oil, and oil/varnish mixes give a finish which is too soft to build to a protective thickness, but which, because of its thinness can be repaired easily.  And certainly it is easy to put together your own oil/varnish mixes.  The proportions are hardly critical. and the ingredients readily available.  And if you want to add wax go ahead, it dissolves in the typical paint solvents. 

   Still an interesting topic.  By the way Brian--do you have any projects finished with the Montour finishes you'd like to show off that would be nice to see. 

    

5. 
   Kevin | Oct 31, 2005 06:01pm | #12

   What is not true is that finish manufacturers have some sort of trade secrets to protect from competitors.  Ingredients can easily be determined by chemical analysis, a capability available to any coatings manufacturer with the technical sophistication to do more than mix by hand and and fill containers. What is being protected in the knowledge that consumer clear finishes are all so much alike. 

   I certainly do agree with your conclussion. And a chemical analysis certainly can reveal all secrets. But, manufactorers do sometimes try to hide certain components - usually a proprietary blend, or so I've been told. For example, the Uni-Cal 66 colorants are made in New Jersey and that state allows them to list "New Jersey Trade Scret Registry" numbers on the ingredients list. The exact purpose of doing that would seem to be both an attempt to protect some proprietary information and at the same time a seemingly pointless exercize because competitors surely have access to chemists. Whatever their reasoning, I've seen ingredients listed that way several times on several different types of products. Invariably it's a New Jersey thing, though. Presumably manufactorers will set up operations in New Jersey to take advantage of that registry when doing so is important enough to them.

   What I've always wondered about is... what if you accidently get some of it in your eye or accidently swallow some and have to get emergency medical help. Do doctors have a list that shows them what those ingredients are?

6. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 31, 2005 08:43pm | #13

   If you look at the MSDS you will see a source given for the medical personel to call for that information. 

   Still I think the "proprietary" information is not to keep secrets from competitors but to make customer think that products are more different than they really are.  There is some technology enhancement going on, but almost all of it, according to Bob Flexner's book comes from the materials manufacturers--the Duponts and other large chemical companies, and not the coatings manufactures.  Consequently all manufacturers have access to the same new additives and materials.  The composition of a finish then becomes a marketing issue of what characteristics will sell and will meet a particular price point. 

   Technology for oil based finishes is pretty much old hat, except as manufacturers work to reduce VOC issues.  Waterborne finishes is apparently where the action is again because of environmental regulations.  New research has been needed to try to get performance closer to that of oil based finishes.  I think it still has a long way to go.  Put a few drops of lacquer thinner on a cured waterborn finish and see what happens.  Try it also with household cleaning ammonia.  Waterborne is a more complex emulsion technology, since these finishes coalesce as the water evaporates and then any solvent reactions can begin to take place.  The potential for interfering with the coalescing process is why major thinning of waterborne finishes is generally a bad idea. 

3. 
   OldTrainer | Feb 24, 2013 03:10pm | #14

   Montour Carnoil

   I have used Carnoil and the Montour Linseed Oil preoduct and like both a lot.  The linseed oil seems especially good as a first - third coat on cherry which I usually sand to at least 400 - 600  (Norton 3X). That leaves a very nice "soft" sheen and the wood still looks like wood, not plastic.  Carnoil then works well as the top finish you can buff to a higher sheen and it still looks like wood.. 

   Bob Duchardt

   Xenia, Ohio

   a.k.a. OldTrainer 

4. 
   OldTrainer | Feb 24, 2013 03:11pm | #15

   Montour Carnoil

   I have used Carnoil and the Montour Linseed Oil preoduct and like both a lot.  The linseed oil seems especially good as a first - third coat on cherry which I usually sand to at least 400 - 600  (Norton 3X). That leaves a very nice "soft" sheen and the wood still looks like wood, not plastic.  Carnoil then works well as the top finish you can buff to a higher sheen and it still looks like wood.. 

   Bob Duchardt

   Xenia, Ohio

   a.k.a. OldTrainer