I have a number of different brand chisels. Most of them, I do not know the hardness of the chisel but can tell on some that they are quite hard and on some, relatively soft.
For dovetail paring, I like my Pfiel and a inexpensive Czech chisel. I have them ground to 25 degrees and they work wonderfully. For chopping waste, I set my angle at 30 degrees. It is with the chisels that get the mallet that I am not real happy. I do not know the hardness rating of any of my chisels, but I have several that I know are very hard because of the time it takes to sharpen.
For future purchases, what hardness should I look for in a paring and a chopping chisel?
Edited 7/5/2006 9:12 pm ET by coolbreeze
Edited 7/5/2006 9:12 pm ET by coolbreeze
Replies
CB:
Most quality Western style chisels are hardened to about Rockwell C 58 - 62; most of the Japanese chisels are hardened to about Rockwell C 60 - 66.
Chisels at the lower end of the hardness scale tend to require sharpening a little more frequently, but are "tougher" in that they will withstand "abuse" somewhat better than the harder chisels. The Japanese chisels tend more toward the brittle side, so you often have to exercise a little more care in using them so that they won't chip, and are a little harder to sharpen, but, IME, they tend to hold their edge significantly longer than the softer chisels. In the end, it is a trade-off of characteristics, and you'll have to decide which characteristics are more important or useful to you and the way you work...
As a general rule of thumb, you'll probably want paring chisels that are toward the harder end, and chopping chisels that are toward the middle or softer end.
Cheers!
James
Edited 7/5/2006 10:22 pm by pzgren
James, your last paragraph is the kind of info I need. Thanks for your reply.
"As a general rule of thumb, you'll probably want paring chisels that are toward the harder end, and chopping chisels that are toward the middle or softer end."Do you have this backwards, James?I usually choose harder chisels for chopping work, since I want a tool that can survive an entire task. Paring hurts the edge less, so I grind lower angles and use softer chisels for that.========
Cool,
I would ignore hardness numbers from manufacturers and advertisers. I don't think hardness is a good measure of the quality of a tool or a good predicter of its performance. I think you're better off going with subjective tool reviews. Also, the performance of tool steels for woodworking is pretty complex. I'd skip the chisel pseudo science. Rockwell hardness isn't even what people think it is. In my experience good to pass on new Sorby and Marples. Old chisels are generally good. New Hirsch and 2 Cheries are good. There are many other comparables.adam
The BEST kept secret in chiseldom!!!....
I have many types and styles of chisels especially Great Japanese ones.
Japanese make chisels for paring and for striking.
The best (read durable) for your application (chopping dovetails) are the:
Kumagoro special alloy bench chisels" they claim to be hardened to 68 RC.
and are recommended for chopping through composite material, plywood etc..
I am not sure if that's so but I have used the extensively along side Lie Nielsons ,Iyoroi, Tasai,Nishiki,Three cherries,pfeil and others , and there is by far NO comparison to their edge retention. Honestly they show no sign of edge deformation at least 3-4 times longer than any other chisels I own.
I have even gotten a bit reckless and scraped the bottom of a mortice or two with them and NO chipping.
I picked up a set of 5 I think from Joel at "Tools for Working Wood"
I wish I could get in between sizes. they were reasonable too compared to what I paid for some of my higher end Japanese chisels,just not as beautiful.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh... don't tell anyone so we can supplement our sets with out backorder issues. Ha Also in case you didn't know he sells English style mortise chisels that are the bees knees!!!
Happy Woodworking, Gene DiNardo
Boy, this is a great forum. It can be somewhat confusing at times and one has to sort things out. Maybe draw conclusions from consinsus.
Here is where I am so far. Consensus is that it is hard for chop and soft for paring. I will stay away from Marples and Sorby. will strongly consider Hirsch and 2(3) Cherries and also Kumagoro.
I just ordered a catalogue from Tools for Woodworking
Do not know what "bee's knee" means.
Am I on the right track so far?
Cool
[Q] From T Senthilnathan: “The bee’s knees informally means the best, the most desirable. How did the saying originate?”
[A] It’s one of a set of nonsense catchphrases that originated in North America in the 1920s, the period of the flappers, nearly all of which compared some thing of excellent quality to a part of an animal. You might at that period have heard such curious concoctions as cat’s miaow, elephant’s adenoids, bullfrog’s beard, gnat’s elbows, monkey’s eyebrows, cat’s whiskers, and dozens of others. Only a very few have survived, of which bee’s knees is perhaps the best known, though cat’s pyjamas (an exception to the anatomical rule) also survives.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Well, I'll be a cat's meow!!! I sure hope all your decendants are born naked!
So far so good, I'm all done having decendants. He's 30 and getting married at the end of the month! I can attest firsthand that he was definately born naked. I have it on good authority that I was also.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
And don't forget "the dog's bollocks", a handy superlative to apply to your favourite tool, in Britain at least.
That's one I had'nt heard before! It suffers somewhat when translated into colonial English. I will try it out on my friend English Peter next time he is over, I have picked up several colloquilaisms from him I'm afraid. I wish I could pick up his skills as easily. He is a shipwright and I have seen him do things with wood that I would not believe possible if not for having watched him do it. It's 2am here and I just finished in the shop, a full day tomorrow and I can take the weekend off and take the boat out, supposed to be in the mid 80's (farenheit ) both days. I will run on one engine and slowly at that, so that I don't burn up funds that might be spent on some fine planes and saws I have been drooling over recently.
Have a good weekend, I am going to bed to dream of having Peter's skills and some fine lovingly crafted carefully thought out tools.
I would dream of catching fish too but unfortunately I inherited none of my ancestors considerable skills in that area. I am quite proficient at dredging up old boots, tires (tyres to you ) etc. on light tackle though.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Picture of the evil that drinks up some of my tool money. Hole in the water on which no pieces of wood are level or square to anything else.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Full throttle for that baby for just a brief period of time will eat up a good chisel.
Have a good weekend!
About $73 an hour at 31mph.
Ouch...
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
D,
That boat is the Dog's Bollox, man! :-)
However, I suggest the addition on the bow of two young women of the kind that can be seen disporting in the South of France on a summers day, clad only in (how many more times will we need to censor you - the Good Taste Police).
As to shipwrights and their skills - I was brought up in Tyneside, a shipbuilding mecca until the 70s really. There were some fabulous craftsmen about in those days, including the metalwork and woodwork teachers at The South Shields Grammar Technical School for Boys. Both were ex-shipyard men.
Unfortunately I did maths and physics, which for "reasons" best known to the Education Board, meant that the practical crafts were verboten to me.
I often wonder what happened to all those talented men (and they were all men then).
Although the ships they built are probably mostly scrapped now, you can still see their art in miniature within the halls of one of the Newcastle Marine & Tech Museums, which has many, many large scale models of various ships, in stunning detail.
"...Am I on the right track so far?"
No. Hard equals brittle and softer is tougher. By what you've been told, you should be using a softer chisel for chopping. Brittle edges will chip. The reality is that you're probably going to end up with a few chisels you always reach for, especially if you lack an unlimited tool budget.
Get some good chisels, there's no real need for spending all that money for duplicate chisels. Good chisels will give you good edge holding ability and not be brittle or subject to folding edges. Spend a little on a good set of sharpening stones, what ever kind works for you. Learn to sharpen. Unless you get careless, you should be able to sharpen a previously tuned chisel is less than a couple minutes.
I wonder if a lot of the things I see written aren't driven by a fear of sharpening or people who haven't learned to sharpen. My advise is to skip all the honing guides and other crutches. They only work on the easiest to sharpen blades anyway. Profiled blades and chisels are what give you the capability to go where ever your imagination might take you with woodworking and sharpening jigs don't work for them.
I don't have much advise for which chisels to buy. I've got a mix of old chisels and some I bought new. Those I bought new, were nearly all bought 20 years ago or so. The exceptions are a couple Lie-Nielsen chisels and I've found them very good, better than a lot of old ones and better than those I bought new years ago. The only magic bullet I know of in chisels is being able to sharpen. Sharpening is pretty simple and the learning curve isn't steep.
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