Jet machinery is making a push to establish a market in Europe– although I think their headquarters are European anyway, but I’m not sure of that.
I find it interesting how different their table saws are to the ones offered to US buyers. I wonder if they’re planning to make an assault on the US market with these machines too, once they’ve got any wrinkles tweaked and worked out?
Here’s a link to their UK website. JetUK Slainte.
Replies
It would be nice to see them market those tablesaws in the US. Wonder what the pricing is like on them. I'd like to upgrade to a slider eventually.
I suppose their product lines are geared toward particular markets, thus the different machines. You would think that they'd get the idea from reading this and other forums that US buyers are very interested in Euro-style table saws. (I'm really tired of playing around with sleds and aftermarket miter gauges!)
Jeff
This is what I find interesting, Jeff. They've never before (as far as I know) made any attempt to sell their saws-- or any other woodworking machine-- in Europe. Now, a saw is a saw, and there isn't much to one really, but look how different the European Jet model saw is to the American range of machines. The machines shown on their website probably cost about £1,500 - £2,000, which is about $2,500 and up.
It's got a riving knife and a crown guard. It also has an adjustable rip fence, ala European style, and horror of horrors, a wee sliding table (and a big one as an option.) I just wonder if it's got a decent dust channeling system, and if not, why not, and if it doesn't, the Europeans are going to reject it as a bit crude and antedilivuan, but I don't imagine Jet, a sharp company, will let sloppy engineering enter into the equation.
It begs the question, why do they produce a machine that looks a wee bit sophisticated for the Europeans, and don't forget that it includes that riving knife and crown guard. How good is that machine? And if they can stick a half decent riving knife and crown guard on a machine for the European market, then how hard could it be to do the same for the American market?
And then compare its apparent superficial sophistication to the clunker saws that Americans get positively moist about, such as the Powermatic PM66, which is a crude tool from about 1920 AD, and Jet own that brand too.
However, even Powermatic have begun to realise that they must get in touch with the 20th. century, if not the 21st., and they are selling--shock, horror-- a sliding table saw, ha, ha. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
"And then compare its apparent superficial sophistication to the clunker saws that Americans get positively moist about, such as the Powermatic PM66, which is a crude tool from about 1920 AD, and Jet own that brand too."
A couple corrections for you here, sport. Powermatic didn't produce the 66 during the 20's, they made planers, which they got their reputation for. The other, Jet doesn't own PM, they are both,along with Performax, owned by another parent company. As far as a 'clunker' goes, I disagree with you on that, having used many other saws over the years,admitedly not european saws though. You are possibly right about some people getting moist about the PM saw, but that is because they have always used an inferior saw. I would be curious to see the inner workings of these new Jet saws, to see if they are the same as the American counterparts, which I suspect they are. I think they just pretty them up to suck in dumb europeans.
You're quite correct in the corporate set up there, Dave. The 1920's reference was innaccurate, and the term 'clunker' were both meant to be read as containing just a smidgeon of dryness, ha, ha.Some stuff I've made.
Hmmm, one thing I absolutely cannot stand is floor tools not having toe space! Of course, having big feet might be the source of that misery.
Weird looking table saw they have! Totally un-American!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
VERY interesting when looking at the tablesaws. Judging from the miniscule information in the picture it would appear it also has the typical almost worthless European rip fence, can’t tell positively from the picture though.
I’ve always been of the opinion that if the Euro saws were ever to be introduced into the American market that it would not be delta doing it. As mentioned, PM now has a couple of slider saws that look like they are from Robland, Jet evidently has something they could offer here – can grizzly be far behind?
It would be nice to see a Euro saw that was truly configured for the American market.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
That's an interesting comment, Phil. Personally, I loathe the long US style of rip fence, which I find to be a positive menace, and encourager of kickbacks. I won't use one for ripping. But then, I trained and qualified as a furniture maker in the UK, so saws of that pattern are meat and drink to me. It's a bit on the small side compared to what I'm used to, but it's certainly familiar looking. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Sgian,
I'm glad you brought this up. I've always been embarrassed by the safety shortcomings of the tablesaws marketed to the masses in the U.S.. Delta, et al. do this because they can. As I understand it, they couldn't in europe/u.k., because of two things. First is that they couldn't pass safety regulations and second is that the buying public there has been conditioned to expect more. And to pay more, which is the bottom line. Manufacturers marketing in the U.S. have long been aware of the crown guard/riving knife, as well as the safety benefits of using a shorter fence for ripping operations (this later feature admittedly requiring a bit of a relearning to reach a comfort level). Our tablesaws are indeed primitive. So much so that we can't even easily modify them to add a riving knife if we wanted to. The trunion/arbor design doesn't permit it. Bettering them costs money, which must be recovered from the consumer. As long as the other manufacturers put something out there in the less-than-$1,000 range, even in a primitive, more dangerous machine, people, especially hobbyists, will buy them (especially after becoming interested in woodworking through watching Norm). I have a contractors saw with unifence. I use a homemade crosscut sled (which I love, actually, it serving much like a mobile zero clearance insert). The OEM splitter/guard is pristine, never having been used. I'd have gotten a cabinet saw if the kids didn't need those new shoes..., and it would have been American style, since I'd never heard of a proper riving knife until reading one of your posts here some years later. It is pretty clear the manufacturers are businessmen first, not woodworkers. They are in a competitive business climate, manufacturing and selling what they can in order to stay in business and make a profit. What has always amazed me, though, is why product liability lawsuits haven't coerced them into making safety changes. It is not as if they aren't aware of a better way. Can't you just hear the plaintiff's lawyer? "They were well aware of the safety design defects at the time they sold their tablesaw to my client, Lefty, but they did it on the cheap." Not too much different than the argument made by the plaintiffs attacking the gas tank positioning in the Ford Pinto cases. Again: the Jet saws marketed across the pond are designed the way they are because they'd never sell or even be allowed on offer if they looked remotely like the U.S. design. Maybe Jet will indeed work out the bugs over there, then offer them to us here. Maybe the clever people at Jet will dream up an additional improvement on their Euro-style saws in order to distinguish them and make them more attractive than established brands like startright, knapp, etc..., maybe even in a cost savings innovation. Who knows? One can only hope. In the mean time, it is pretty clear that Jet will never be able to claim ignorance in a lawsuit from Lefty, having sold safer saws to another market. I'd be shocked if there wasn't a memo somewhere in the product development files where safety requirements and improvements aren't discussed. Juries considering punitive damages like that sort of thing.
On another note, congratulations on the article about your cherry bed design on the way in the next Furniture and Cabinetmaking magazine. I saw it in the upcoming features advert in my latest, and recognized it as yours (then noticed the name).
Cheers,
Greg
Thanks Greg. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Phil-
it would appear it also has the typical almost worthless European rip fence
You've mentioned your disdain for the fences on European saws in a number of places, but I've never understood just what it is that you find deficient.
Europeans using European saws (Sgian is one) produce some pretty good stuff, so the fences can't be completely worthless. You did qualify is as almost worthless, but still...
Worth, of course, must be considered in the context of intended use, so can you please explain how the European rip fence precludes effective, accurate, consistent, efficient--or other qualities I haven't mentioned--rip cuts?
Don,
First, if we were to judge the technical merits of a device solely based upon what is produced from it, one might argue the Ryobi BT3100 has everything one would ever need and its design is as good as the best because one can produce “some pretty good stuff” from it.
My basis of “worth” for rip fences is based upon a lot of criteria, you can see a published list of such in an article on my web that outlines options for rip fence options on Euro saws. To summarize, it has to do with performance in rigidity, movement, accuracy, alignment and other things that are pretty non-subjective (I think).
Euro rip fence designs vary and I’ve already admitted that I’m pre-judging the Jet fence based on little information. I haven’t seen Sgian’s machine (except in a picture) but I think we could agree it isn’t even remotely in the class of machines typically discussed on these forums and I’m sure it’s price reflects that. I am not talking about Martins or Altendorfs here! I also know that I’m not alone in this opinion, pick up the latest FWW and look at what is written about the Hammer fence, this is just the tip of the iceberg on that design.
Based upon my technical evaluations, the Euro fences I’ve seen fall short compared to the standard Bessy / Unifence in almost every regard. That doesn’t (usually) make them unusable but it does make them inferior which on a premium machine doesn’t meet my expectations. Different brands have different aspects which make them (IMO) inferior so I won’t go into detail on that.
Perhaps I should have used “inferior” instead of “worthless” in such a sweeping statement although I truly believe there are a few in that category as well.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
Phil-
First of all, I congratulate you on the thoroughness and objectivity of your articles and reviews. I encourage all Knots readers to visit your site. There is bound to be something new and useful for almost any woodworker.
But, back to the perceived shortcomings of European rip fences. I did read your list of desirable properties--rigid when locked down; accurate and repeatable, and the like. These are laudable criteria for any rip fence, regardless of its origin. But, because you don’t specify any measurable standards for rigidity, accuracy, repeatability, etc., I cannot tell from that article or any of your reviews how European rip fences are inferior or in any way lacking in utility as compared to the Beisemeyer or Unifence designs.
I’m sure you have your reasons, and I don’t doubt their validity. I would just like to understand what they are. Your articles do include such seemingly quantitative evaluations as “…certainly an order of magnitude (Ten times? Really?(ed.)) better than the fence that shipped with my more expensive Hammer…”, and “…a Unifence (for example) is twice as good.” But we are not told how such exact values were determined. These statements are really no more objective than the more typical “Euro rip fences are pretty lame in comparison.”
I have experience with only one European table saw, a Rojek. Its fence is perfectly adequate for my needs (I do not use a power feeder). In every operational respect—rigidity, accuracy, repeatability, and the other items on your list--I believe it is as good as the Unifence that preceded it.
Don,
The Hammer triangle rip fence is truly (and thankfully) in a league all its own. Yes, the Rojek fence “is an order of magnitude better” than it, the inadequacy of the Hammer design could hardly be overstated. And yes the “Unifence is twice as good” as the Rojek fence; these are my evaluations and they are based upon easily observable aspects of the design which also includes measurements. I do not include every little detail in my articles as it would most certainly bore the reader to (further) tears.
If you think Euro fences are on-par with the American types that’s fine. I would ask you to imagine this scenario then. What if Delta stopped including the Bessy and Unifence but instead included the Hammer or Rojek design. I think I can predict with a high degree of certainty what would happen to their sales. They would plummet.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
Phil,
Thanks for offering one of the clearest websites around, both in presentation and writing style. I think it effectively answers about 90% of the questions that Knots gets. Do you mind if we refer folks to your site to answer those Right/Left tilt kinds of perennial questions?
Happy Holidays.
Colleen
Splintie, go ahead if you wish.
PMB
http://benchmark.20m.com
Phil-
If you think Euro fences are on-par with the American types that’s fine.
On a par with If you think the sun rises in the west, that's fine?
As I noted, my only experience with a European rip fence is with the Rojek. I don't have your experience with other brands, and that's why I was asking for some genuine information. "Twice as good as" is not information. Unless it's backed up with some measurements, it's a careless expression of an opinion. Why not identify the "...easily observable aspects of the design which also includes measurements." Are the measurements of the design or the performance? Your animosity to the European rip fences (and I emphasize again that I have experience with only one, so I have no reason to differ with your observations) seems to focus on design (flimsy, e.g., whatever measure you use for that) rather than performance in their intended function (produces a curved cut, e.g.).
From a woodworker's perspective, I am interested in function. It ought to be simple to translate your criteria to functional performance. Rigidity = straightness of the rip cut (the cut with this fence deviated, on average, an eighth of an inch from straight) Measuring tape graduations and cursor = accuracy (Cuts were consistently as much as a sixteenth of an inch off, in both directions, from the value to which the fence was set). Cursor visibility and ease of adjusting the fence = repeatability (On successive settings of the fence, cuts were within 0.005" of each other). That sort of thing.
You've put a lot of effort into your evaluations, Phil, and I value the information in them. But my one data point on European rip fences does not match your observation. That makes me wonder what's theatrics ("an order of magnitude") and what's real, supportable information.
Phil, I've used one or two of the European fences on small machines that left a lot to be desired, and I agree with you that a very flimsy and/or flexible one is a pain, and might even be dangerous.
However, because of the way I was trained and continue to work, I've never developed any liking for the long rip fence-- but then I don't use a dado blade in a table saw, and have no interest in doing so, so that just about eliminates any advantage a long rip fence might have in my furniture construction methods. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
I'd like to echo Splintie's assessment of your web-site -- an excellent source of information, clearly presented and if it contains expressions of your personal opinion, so what --- at least you've made the effort.
Richard, this is the first time I've seen this post but from what I saw from the link it seems as though it may be possible that yet another manufacturer may be succombing to the power of the Jet dollar. These machines (table saws) look strangely familiar. The remaining products don't seem to have changed that much. Well at least as far as pictures telling the story.
If nothing else, they have singled out the Jet product line as the point of attack. I wonder why they did not choose Powermatic for the European market and keep the significantly changed Jet line for the U.S. Market. It would seem to me that they would have, at some point, been able to meld the two together to produce a strong interest on both sides of the pond.
Theres probably good reason here for why I never got interested in the marketing field. LOL.
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