I’m thinking about chopping mortises by hand. I’m slowly converting a lot of my work to hand tools as it seems much more satisfying. I can’t afford a lot of expensive tools but by buying a few at a time I’m beginning to build my collection. What would you recommend and where might I purchase a good (not too expensive) mortis chisel. I think I’ll start with a 1/4″ as most of my work is with 3/4″ stock.
Thanks, ZABO
Replies
I highly recommend these:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-MORT.XX&Category_Code=TBMC
I have also found similar vintage chisels (sometimes referred to as "pigstickers") on eBay for very good prices.
Sean,
As a result of your recommendation, I read up on the Ray Iles mortise chisels. They sound very good. Have you heard anything about the Lie Nielsens?This may sound naive, but what the hell. What sizes do you find most useful. Most of my mortises have been 3/8". I did do one set at 1/2", but the wood was quite thick. In the past I have done mortises with a router in a Tage Frid type U-shaped jig, but since your writeup, I have gotten the urge to do them by hand. Why go into this thing half way?Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Zabo2,
If money is tight, I find used firmers to be quite adequate for anything under 3/8's". They are all over the place at tag sales for about $6-10.
Z,
As Samson indicates, those Ray Iles get good reports from everyone who writes about them. They are perhaps a tad expensive.
I have Two-cherries mortise chisels which are somewhat cheaper but perhaps not quite so purfek in function as those Iles. Nevertheless they work very well. There is a couple of fettles that improve a Two-cherry mortise chisel :
You can take off any annoying laquer from blades and handles with nail-polish remover. This gives a better feel when holding the chisel, I find. A further handle-improvement comes if the round handles are given a couple of flats (with a sander or plane) parallel to the sides of the mortise chisel blade. This makes it easier to keep the chisel properly oriented in the mortise, both by feel and by sight. (I think this may be part of the reason those Iles have a more elliptical handle).
It's worth making sure that the polishing of the blade done in the factory has not dubbed the cutting edge or corners. This may require you to do a very small regrind; I found it was enough to just have-at the sharp end with the diamond stones for 5 minutes or so.
I wouldn't bother with the matching swan-neck chisels to scrape out the bottom of the mortise when it gets deeper. I bought three to match my mortise chisel widths but found they were redundant in practice. Some others may find them useful if their chopping-out technique is different.
I have 6mm (1/4") 8mm (5/16") and 12mm (1/2") which seem to cover all the M&Ts I do in the various-sized workpieces that occur in most types of furniture. If you're imperial, you might want and 3/8" rather than 5/16" as the "middle" size.
Lataxe
David,
In talking about the Ray Iles mortise chisels, you said:
"They are perhaps a tad expensive."I'd recommend that you focus on the goodness and appropriateness of a tool. The cost is secondary to the other two parameters. If that cost is necessary to get a tool that does the job, then one must pay the price. If you needed open heart surgery, would you want to pay a second rate surgeon a cheaper price just to get a "bargain"? :-)NelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nelly,
When the ticker goes I'm hoping I just drop dead off the bicycle. However, should it come to heart surgery I'll pay what I can afford and try to afford the best I can. But hold on............!
Happily we in Blighty don't have to worry about these matters as it's all free on the NHS. Long ago we decided as a polity that exploiting people's illness and keeping the poor from decent treament was beyond the pale. We cannot have drab tenements full of dead babies and clapped out workmen, or so proposed Mr Bevan; and rightly so.
Of course, we are Fabianistas and nivver read that Rand woman, as novels by authors suffering from Asperger's syndrome tend to be somewhat boring and over-intense, not to mention socially unaware. So, selfishness is not generally regarded as a Great Virtue. But I digress.
You will probably have to cough up yer life savings (what's left after the ravages applied to them by the other capitalists) should you get a knocking in the chest organ. The savings are (unless you be secretly rich) unlikely to get you the best surgeon, who all now work in Miami anyway, putting new faces on to gangsters for $2M a pop.
Perhaps it would be best to start riding yer bike exceedingly hard; this would save a lot of money for the relatives to squabble over, if and when the ticker goes bang.
Lataxe, who might yet indulge in an Iles mortise chisel or two, should there be a spare muckle lying about. (I will be buying a few Iles carving ones).
Mel, in my case it's the tool holding the tool that causes problems.
I love good old used tools, if only because, having survived with evidence of use, I reckon any problems are of my causing. In Singapore some fifty years ago I watched craftsmen create furniture with "tools" you would not believe.
OK, I have survived with evidence of use as well and am not expensive- but that does not make me cheap. The two are not synonymous despite the blurb of advertising calling us to buy the best meaning what we cannot afford.
Fortunately we enjoy the services of excellent surgeons at no cost to the individual here in the UK. On the other hand, the costs of medicine prescriptions to the less well off is such that the timely prevention of the problem in the first place is questionable. Once old enough even these are free, but then it may be too late.
The UK space program started with a rocket fired from an electric power station but the extention cable would not reach and then the fuse would blow. We only discovered there was no atmosphere in space when we tried a lighter than air rocket.
Mufti,
I believe that the US will follow others toward more socialized medicine. The US once practiced a free market economy, but those days are a distant memory now. So now I don't talk much politics. Making sawdust gets me into less trouble. I am in the market for a set of mortise chisels. I read about the Ray Iles chisels and they sound good, but I can get a good discount on Lie Nielsen stuff, so I was inquiring about others having experience with those. I have made enough mortises with a router. Time to try a pig sticker. Possibly by the end of this year, I will be able to make a nicely carved cabinet with only hand tools. I have the dovetails down, and I do a lot of carving, but I have yet to try M&T by hand. It doesn't look difficult, and I am not sure why I want to try, but at my age, who needs reasons? Just another hill to climb. There are a number of folks around here who do the whole thing by hand, but I don't know any many who also carve. Of course, there is Ray Pine. Who are others? Sean (Samson) does it all and includes inlay. That ain't bad. And both Ray and Sean work to high personal standards. So I have some good examples to emulate.MelMelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
I could do it all by hand, but typically don't unless it is as a demo at a craft show or the like. I am of the " Ecclesiastes" school of woodworking, a time for electricity and a time for hand work.
I've often thought about making up a tee shirt that says;
Real woodworkers do it by hand
and it takes them all night
Ray
Ray,
YOu should know better than to take me at my word.
I meant that I would do the dovetails, M&T, dados and rabbets, and carving by hand, as well as final planing of flat surfaces. However, I would use a jointer and a thickness planer to get boards in the right sizes. I didn't mean to mislead. I also use electric lights. I use heating and airconditioning. I use a computer. Also, I don't mean to imply that I will continue only working all of these things by hand. I just want to learn the skills and to do them enough to be able to call on the skills whenever I want to. I came from the school of Norm. I have never fully left. I do venture out. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
On local TV this morning there was an item about a brewery desperate to find an apprentice cooper. Now that is a job I would love!
If laws against age discrimination were a reality I would be there.
Pigstickers are common here and cheap, its just the cost of sending them to you that is the problem. And to be fair, I use those outdoors for wooden gates and such, they are overkill for bench work.
Enjoy, Davide
I got a few pig stickers including a Ray Isles. If the mortises you are doing are deep, they are the way to go. If the mortise is not that deep, say an inch or so, then they are overkill. If I were looking for a pig sticker, go vintage and not because the Ray Isles is not an excellent tool, because it is. I would look for vintage, because old pigstickers are dirt cheap. Even if you have to order from some of the better known antique tool dealers, a vintage chisel is still less than half the cost of a new one.
T.Z.
Tony,
Thanks for the info on mortise chisels. As a result of the message by Sean (Samson) I looked into the writeups on the Ray Iles mortise chisels, and The Tools for Working Wood writeup says they are excellent. ((Possible bias there but with an OK by Sean, I'd say they are probably very very nice.Because I get a bit of a deal on Lie Nielsen because of Woodcraft, I should look into their mortise chisels. The rest of their stuff has been superb. But I haven't heard back from Sean, and no one else volunteered info.Someone else recommended just using bench chisels for mortises 1/2" and smaller. Any thoughts on that? What have I got to lose? I will have some fun with this. But then Lataxe is going to say I am cheap. So is the term "pig sticker" synonomous with "mortise chisel"? or does it refer to something more specific. Many years ago, I was in an antique store and I picked up a box of old chisels. Nothing special in there, but one is a 3/8" mortise chisel. I sharpened it back then, and I just checked out what I had done. It looks like about a 28 deg primary bevel, and a secondary bevel that brings it to somewhere above 30 deg, I would guess. So I am going to give that no-name thing a try, and then some other old no name bench chisels that I got in that batch. I may have paid ten bucks for the box of chisels, and I did it just to have some things to practice grinding on. Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
those guys at Tools for Woodworking can be taken at face value, if the tool wasn't good they wouldn't carry it.
Woodman,
I fully agree with you. Joel is a stand-up guy. I often recommend his store to others.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey, Mel, I didn't mean to snub you, I thought Derek had answered every question you could have.
If you're asking about the LN mortise chisels, I've never used one. I've only ever used bench chisels after boring out most of the waste, or pig stickers. I won't opine on something I've never used.
Sean,
I didn't think you had snubbed me. I figured you were gone or busy. You answered my question. I was wondering if you had used the LNs. You haven't. Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
So is the term "pig sticker" synonomous with "mortise chisel"? or does it refer to something more specific.
Mel, they are one and the same. But you take your gonads in your hands if you choose to use that term around Joel (Moskowitz). I agree with Joel that it sounds derogatory. The correct term is either "Oval Bolstered" or "English Bolstered".
... one is a 3/8" mortise chisel. I sharpened it back then, and I just checked out what I had done. It looks like about a 28 deg primary bevel, and a secondary bevel that brings it to somewhere above 30 deg, I would guess. So I am going to give that no-name thing a try
Keep in mind that a 28 degree primary bevel will require more effort than a 20 degree primary bevel. I use the latter, which is the traditional recommendation, along with a 35 degree small secondary bevel.
I have not seen a LN (sash) mortice chisel ground with a 20 degree primary. They all appear to come with a 30 degree primary. Probably because the steel is A2 and they may not have a secondary bevel (I am guessing here - the only one I have seen used was in a DVD by Rob Cosman).
I do not think that the OB type are unsuited to shallow mortices. But I would say that a sash type is less suited to deep mortices in hard woods. You can use anything to chop a mortice, even a bevel edged paring chisel. How long the chisel lasts is another story. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
I've never thoguht of "pig sticker" as derrogatory. I always took at as a comment on how lethal those big chunks of steel look - as in you could use one to slaughter a huge hog.
Derek,
Thanks for the info. I was not using "pig sticker" in a derogatory term. I saw a number of folks using it, and thought is must be fairly commonplace. Oh well, Joel doesn't stop over to my house much, but if he comes over I will not use the term at all. I read in Joel's writeup about the use of a 20 deg primary and a 35 secondary. Then I read the 30 deg primary with the advice for a secondary on the LN website. I was at a session with Cosman for two days, and he used the LNs to chop a number of mortises. He had no problems. I also have his DVD. All of this tells me that either will work, and once again it is a matter of personal preference. So I will give my no-name 3/8" mortise chisel a try. It is now set up almost like the LNs so I'll try it that way, then I'll regrind it to 20 deg and try again. My guess is that I will need a bunch of experience in different types of wood before I can feel the difference, but we'll see.I'll call the LN folks and see what they say on the phone. Deneb will probably be at the big woodworking show near Dulles airport in a few months. He was there next year. Also last year, we had him over to our Washington Woodworkers Guild for a talk and a demo. Maybe we can get him to talk to us about mortise chisels this year. In any case, I'll ask him at the show.As always, I really appreciate the help.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You haven't invited me to your house yet (and I do try to avoid offending the host) but it you are in DC - we are going to the "connect to the craft" open house at the Philadephia Furniture Workshop on jan 30-31 2009. It's free, the demonstrators who are donating their time are some of the best people around and we will have Ray's Mortise chisels for you (and anyone else) to try (along with other stuff) Philly is a bit of a drive from DC but it's not too bad. here is a link to the details of demonstrators, vendors, and schedules:http://www.philadelphiafurnitureworkshop.com/view/show/pfw_open_house.html
Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Joel,
No joke. You are invited to my house any time. My wife and I live in Burke, VA. I am retired from 30 years at NASA and I spend most of my time doing my passion, woodworking and carving. I have been increasing my skills in hand tools over the past few years, but have a long way to go. Did the dovetails first, then hand planing, and want to start handmade mortise and tenon. Rob Cosman was here last month and I spend a day and a half with him. I was about to buy some Lie Nielsen mortising chisels when I heard about the Ray Iles. So I asked Sean (Samson) his opinion. He likes the Iles and hasn't tried the LNs. THen I got some good info from Derek. Then I got an invitation from a friend who doesn't live far away, to try his Iles mortising chisels. So I appreciate your invitation to Philly, but now there is an easier way for me to get some hands on experience.If you are ever near Washington, DC, and have a few hours to spare, I'd like to have you over to the house/shop, and Mary Beth and I will provide some good food too. You already know more than most about most woodworking tools, but maybe I could give you a demonstration of making bowls out of green wood with a chain saw. Once you see it, you are going to want to do it!!!! Of course, you only do the initial roughing out with the chainsaw, then you move to hand tools.Thank you very much for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm interested in hearing more about making bowls with a chainsaw. I have three big pieces of black locust that I've been letting dry with the ends sealed for a few years now. The pieces are all "elbow" pieces from a tree that fell at my wife's grandfather's home in Queens, NY. I'd love to make her some decorative bowls, but since I've never done it before I dont' want to muck up my first try. THe wood, as you'd expect from an elbow, is very twisty grained and I"m sure there will be lots of tearout. I was considering using an angle grinder with a chainsaw tooth cutting blade to start, but since I dont' have an angle grinder but do have a chainsaw, I'd save some $$ by using your methods.Thanks, Bill
"So is the term "pig sticker" synonomous with "mortise chisel"? or does it refer to something more specific."
Mel - I'm going to disagree with Derek on this point. I've never heard the "pig sticker" nickname applied to anything other than the oval-handled, bolstered style of English mortise chisel.
Regarding the Ray Iles vs. the L-N - These are not the same tools, though they can both be used to chop a mortise. Technically, the Lie-Nielsen design is a "sash mortise" chisel. These were also produced in the UK, as well as by Stanley, and were typically designed to be a lighter, smaller chisel to be used in window sash work.
One specific difference between the L-N and the Ray Iles is that the sides of the L-N chisels are 90 degrees to the back (in other words, they're "square" to the face). The Ray Iles, and most of the antiques, have relieved sides so that they don't get hung up in the loose fibers on the sides of a hand-cut mortise. Also, the L-Ns are radially symmetrical in the handle, so orientation in the cut is up to the user. The british oval-handled design is intended to fit one's hand and make orientation to the cut fairly automatic.
Whether one wants one or the other is largely a matter of preference - the L-N can be used in a technique described on this site by Christian Becksvoort to very rapidly clean out a mortise that's been drilled because their sides are square to the back. In my case, I prefer the Ray Iles because I don't bother to pre-drill my mortises - I find it's just as rapid to whack one out and lever out the waste without pre-drilling. For that reason, I'll probably sell my L-N set.
d,
That was an extremely helpful message. You gave me more details on the specific differences in the design and use of the Iles and LN mortise chisels. Thank you very much. I watched Cosman cut a number of mortises with the LNs without predrilling, and it seemed to go rather smoothly and quickly. Possibly this is due to his skill level, and possibly the chisels are fairly adequate for mortises up to about a half inch wide and an inch or so deep. I don't need to do really big mortises. I will send you a personal message right now.
Again, thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I've never heard the "pig sticker" nickname applied to anything other than the oval-handled, bolstered style of English mortise chisel.
Mmm ..Mel asked if a pig sticker was a mortice chisel. I said .. The correct term is either "Oval Bolstered" or "English Bolstered". I was responding to "pig sticker" - this was not meant to imply that this name was used for all mortice chisels. Apologies for any confusion.
Regards from Perth
Derek
"If you needed open heart surgery, would you want to pay a second rate surgeon a cheaper price just to get a "bargain"? :-)"I hear that analogy a lot... if I were paying for open heart surgery and not my insurance company, yeah I might be more concerned about the cost. This is exactly why there has been a boom in elective surgeries (e.g. hip replacement) being done in India by western trained doctors in modern hospitals for 1/3 the cost of doing it here in the U.S. Insurance companies and HMOs aren't covering these surgeries and people are looking for good value for their money. I'm all with you on quality of tools being a primary determiner in a purchase, but I also recognize that I can pound away on mortises all day long using a $1 plastic handled garage sale chisel that is properly sharpened and I wouldn't notice a difference in my work output. Mortises are not detail work. PS- I have been wanting a pair of those Ray Iles mortise chisels for years!
Woodman,
I like the way you think.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Zabo
Chopping mortices is easy and satisfying with decent mortice chisels.
There are a number of different types available - I'm not referring to brands. As with many tools, it is not a case of "best", but the type that suits you better than others. I have developed my own preference, which I will mention below.
Initially I had Japanese mortice chisels. These tend to have short blades, and I found them better suited to shallow work. Overall, I did not like them and thought that they required more effort to do the work. In part this was due to the bevels being ground at 30 degrees - too high for easy penetration.
The mortice chisels I have come to prefer are the Oval Bolstered (or English Bolstered) type. I have a couple of modern Ray Iles but mostly have old vintage ones (such as Ward). The Ray Iles are built from D2 steel, which is very durable, but the vintage ones are laminated high carbon steel (similar to the Japanese blades) and mine hold an edge a long time in serious hardwoods.
The cheapest way to own these is to find some on eBay that require new handles, and replace these yourself. There is a tutorial on my website.
Here are some rehandled:
View Image
The 1/4" Ray Iles is in the middle here, flanked by a 1/2" and 1/4" Wards ..
View Image
What you might notice about the bevels is that they have a 20 degree primary bevel and a 35 degree small secondary bevel. This combination aids ppenetration while preserving strength.
These are largish chisels - a lot larger than the LN mortice chisels, which are sash mortice chisels by design.
LN:
View Image
The LN chisels are less powerful. Choosing a chisel should be more than about size, and steel, but also about control. I have had mortice chisels that dwarf the LN, and were even larger than the OB. Below are a couple I restored. I designed the handles along the lines of the LNs as they are socketed, but made them larger.
View Image
What I found was that these were real powerhouses but the round handles did not provide the same degree of control as the oval handles.
Incidentally, get a bottom cleaning mortice chisel as well. These are really useful in clearing chips. There are a few Japanese ones available. I made my own from an Allen key (stuck it in a reject marking knife handle) ..
View Image
View Image
Sizes? The most used are 1/4" and 5/16" for most work, with 3/8" for large work. I do use a 1/8" a reasonable amount as well.
Lots of choices and a wide range of prices. Hope this helps.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 1/10/2009 10:02 am ET by derekcohen
Edited 1/10/2009 10:05 am ET by derekcohen
Derek, yes, very, very helpful. I'm a "chisel novice" and have hesitated buying handleless chisels. After reading your post and tutorial, I think I'll try replacing the handle on an old chisel I have - if that works, no more hesitation buying handleless chisels. I like your creative allen key, bottom cleaning mortice chisel. Thanks,
Larry
Zabo - The absolute dirt cheapest places to get english-style "pig sticker" mortise chisels are at flea markets. The second cheapest place is flea bay, but you should realize that not all antiques can be restored to use. The older mortise chisels were made of soft iron with a piece of tool steel forge-welded to the underside to form the cutting edge. It's fairly common to see these where the short piece of steel has been mostly ground away from repeated sharpenings. This is often not visible in small photos on the 'bay. Such a chisel will be near useless unless you know a blacksmith that is willing to "re-steel" the chisel for cheap.
Another problem with "pig-sticker" chisels, and antiques chisels in general, is that the workman that originally owned them only honed the tip of the back to get another sharp edge for a day's work. That results in "bellying" over many sharpenings, so that the back of the chisel has curve instead of a flat. While more useable than iron chisels that have had their steel tips ground away, this is still not an ideal situation - you need a straight back on the chisel to get an accurate reference face and a straight-down chop at the ends of the mortise.
If you wish to avoid these issues but still buy at a lower price than the new Ray Iles chisels, you might try http://www.thebestthings.com in their "vintage tools" section. The owner knows woodworking, and is very honest about what you're looking at. You'll pay a bit more than e-bay, but about half what a new Ray Iles chisel costs (I've a set of Ray Iles by the way - superb chisels).
Sounds like I was in a similar position to what you're in now... Wanting to start but not sure quite where. I thought about rehabbing old chisels if and when I could find them, but wanted to start right away. Didn't want to blow my wood budget on one chisel. Bought a 1/4" Hirsch "pigsticker" at Lee Valley and have been quite happy with it. Not tremendously expensive, gold-plated or anything, just a well made piece of steel with a handle.
Pete
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