All,
As I got such good advice about hand saws, I was hoping for a little more about chisels – for paring dovetails and for chopping mortises.
I have some Record/Marple bench chisels – those with the blue plastic handles – which have served well in the limited uses I’ve put them to in my machine-oriented WW to-date. Am I right in thinking that:
* These chisels are no good for chopping mortises, in the long run at least.
* One or more could be reground to a 15-20 degree bevel (they are currently 30 degrees with a microbevel) for dovetail paring.
Furhter questions:
Given I work in hardwoods, some of which are abrasive (afromosia, iroko) what type of mortise chisel is best, in terms of configuration and steel hardness? (I have a sort of yen for those Ray Iles pigstickers but you could easily change my mind with cogent advice).
Is a swan neck chisel necessary to clean out the mortise bottoms?
Should I also buy one or two dedicated DT chisels with sharper side bevels and so forth? Or will the reground Marples be OK?
Thanks in anticipation.
Lataxe
Edited 7/2/2006 5:01 pm ET by Lataxe
Replies
Hi Lataxe,
For mortise chisels I would go with Ray's or vintage. They feel right and are very good steel.
Hopefully Derek will drop in a picture of his DT chisel he ground out of what I remember is a 3/8" BE chisel. Alternately, get a Pfiel fishtail carving chisel. That's what I did and they work very well.
I have a few swan neck and do use them. I don't use them for cleaning up the bottoms per se, but to pare the bottom if I want to make then a tad deeper. A few chops with the mortise chisel to score the bottom and then the swan neck to scrape it out.
Have you used the Ray Isle's mortice chisel? I've been very busy with other interest for a year or so and was not aware of them. Went over to the Tools for WW site and they look and sound interesting. Might try the 3/8" morticer as mine seems to have shrunk a tad over the years. Hormone I suspect. :>)
I have a set of the Ashley Isle's American Pattern chisels and couldn't be more pleased. The craftsman-ship is there and the steel is good. Does Ray Isle's operate in-dependently of his father? Guessing the answer is yes from some of the comments here and on that site.
Regards...
SARGE..g47
Hi Sarge,
I have a few old pig-sticker mortise chisels that I've refurbished and they're a dream to use; if the ones Ray Iles is making are comparable, they should be great, too.
Glad to see you're back at Knots!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Evening Jazz. Thanks for the welcome back. I notice some of the old sages are still around along with a host of others that happened by. Seems strange not to have to go over the cafe and drag Jon Arno away from blasting liberals long enough to answer a question on wood composition. I learned a lot from Jon about wood and it's properties and sorely miss the man and his humor.
I have a Heinz 57 mixture of mortise chisels as I do most small ones on my SF mortiser. Well.. err... used too as I do find it relaxing beating h*ll out of something with a mallet in my twi-light years. Probably has something to do with raising a teen-ager. ha.. ha...
But when I get up to 1"-1 1/2"+ wide and 5" plus deep through mortises on the legs of my whale-back work-bench base design, I grab a Barr timber-framing mortise chisel. It gets the call for heavy-duty work that most probably won't find the need for.
Hope to find all is well with you and again, thanks for the welcome back...
SARGE.. g47
Edited 7/2/2006 11:14 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hi Sarge,
I, too, "sorely miss the man and his humor" as well as his incredible intelligence, wisdom, and kindness.
Thank you for your kind words,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Hi Sarge,
Yes I have used one belonging to a friend--but dang if I didn't have to leave it at his place! I like them enough to either buy two or hunt down refurbishable vintage. To be honest, most of my mortises in small cabinets these days are done with a WoodRat. When I was using softer woods, I bought a few of the Sorby sash mortise and they fit my needs at the time. Very servicable for light woods.
But on Bubinga? Forget 'em. When I don't want to take the WR off the wall shelf and set it up, I drill them out with either a DP or brace and simply use the paring chisels. But I am going to be doing another couple cabinets when I have the time, one in Cedar which the Sorby's will do fine in, the other in Mahagony, which I think either a couple Iles or vintage will do much better on. For these couple jobs I plan on whacking them out. Sorta coming full circle in my little journey.
I hate routers with a passion, so at some point in the near future the last three routers will be sold and the 'Rat gone. That will prompt a move on my part to either take the time for hunting down vintage or get the Iles.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
I'd like to quiz you further on the fishtail chisel.
Looking in the various catalogues, all the fishtails seem to have a greater or lesser curve to the end. I'm struggling to understand how a curved-end chisel does well with the straight walls and floor of pin sockets and tails...........? Do you (re)grind it flat?
Thanks.
Lataxe
Hi Lataxe,
Here's a link to an AI-brand fishtail chisel--not gouge...
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=IL-54x1.XX
While I don't wish to argue efficacy of one type over another, this is much easier to find than an 18th century one.
Take care, Mike
The link points to carving chisels which are double beveled and not really usefull for cabinetmaking. joel
Yes, I couldn't find a picture of a Pfiel single bevel fishtail and I should have noted that--thanks.
But the steel in carving tools is top-notch and for cleaning out--paring cuts--of a DT socket is not hard on a tool anyway.
The HT-brand has a shallow double bevel and can easily be ground back. The AI looks shallower as a carving tool ought to be. The Pfiel also has a shallower bevel but I believe one can still purchase them with a single or double bevel, which for the purpose of cleaning out a DT socket, the single bevel is desired.
I look at it this way. All the vintage Butchers I have needed significant work to make them into usable straight-sided firmers. Grinding back the double bevel of a carving tool if that's all one can find is no more work--and certainly less work than Derek's modification.
The vintage swiss fishtail carving tools I have all had single bevel and I believe Pfiel still makes them, though Woodcraft may not carry them or have them in-stock.
Does AI also make a single bevel fishtail-pattern carving tool?
Thank you, Mike
AI doesn't make a single bevel fishtail as stock but we could get them in. For cleaning dovetails however a single bevel skew fishtail like the ones we stock are less expensive, the right narrow width, and are so much better in performance than none-skew fishtail for the purpose I cannot imagine why you would bother. Also skew chisels are used only occasionally so there is no point in getting an expensive chisel and the slightly softer steel of ours makes there is less chance of a tip snapping off in the midst of CCR (corner cleanup rushing).Most people get them too wide - a 1/4" or 3/8" is all you need.joel
OK. Thank you, Joel.
My preference--my method of work--is a single chisel rather than a L/R pair. As well, a fishtail, being non-skewed has more usability than a skewed chisel which "are used only occasionally so there is no point in getting an expensive chisel."
And, of course, if someone asks a group of people for their personal opinions, I will give my own uninformed opinion and even go on to explain why I would bother when there are other options available.
If it matters to the others, I believe my fishtail is an 8 mm. I do have larger/smaller as well as part of my carving kit but have never pulled them out for cleaning DT sockets.
I also have several varieties of skewed, single-bevel chisels, from carving tool versions to "real" skewed chisels, and even the LV ones that match the detail chisels reference earlier. As noted above, I don't find I use skewed chisels that much. The exception being a cranked, 1" wide Crown which I ground a skew into for the purpose of scraping glue off of panels. Works a treat.
Take care, Mike
mike,
I'm not suggesting a plain skew chisel - I agree with you on that.
I am suggesting a fishtail single bevel skewed chisel. Works better than either a skew chisel, or a regular fishtail chisel. You get more wiggle room - and I can see why some people don't like dealing with switching to two chisls and prefer one tool in the hand.joel
Yep, I hunted them down on the TWW web site. Cost effective.
For everyone else, here's the linky:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-SBSKEW.XX&Category_Code=TMT
As I haven't tried a fishtail skew, I have no point of comparison to a non-skewed fishtail such as what I use. I can only go by my own experience with what I do have. But read the text at the link for a good explanation as to these chisels' efficacy.
Take care--I need to get back to figuring out quotes on two possible large orders as my steel and brass quotes came in today...
Miketrapped on the computer today I fear...
Edited 7/3/2006 11:54 am by mwenz
Different sort of joint but still an issue of chisels.
I have been performing miserably trying to cut three of the joints below. I have been using a Pfiel 8/5 gouge to cut the curve, but am stronly suspecting that this type of joint was the reason for in-cannel gouges. Because of the outside bevel on a carving gouge, it is very difficult to take paring cuts down the length of the joint without the tail getting in the way. - this wont be my best piece of furniture but has been a learning experience.
As for cleaning out a standard dovetail. I own stanly bench chisels they have the same interferance problem Derek is talking about so I use a knife to finish the corners. I never occurred to me untill I looked at Derek's photos that I learnt using my father's Bergs, so the problem really only arose after I left home. (bit obvious in retrospect) I did buy a pair of skewed chisels for this purpose, but think they might have been used twice.
Dave
Hi Dave
I am impressed! My skills do not run as far as the joint you drew and am keen to be edumacated. Can you use a flat surface in place of the curved? It would be so much easier paring an triangled flat to the foot of the dovetail. I assume that this is to match the central pillar of a table, so my suggestion is not practical. Mmm ... what if you cut the hollow sans dovetail (with a Round), then add the dovetail (maybe with a dovetail joint!)?
Alf has a step-by-step on her website, but does not show how she does this joint. My impression was that she left it flat.
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/musicstandindex.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
p.s. I have just posted a step-by-step of my own on building a (sliding) dovetail plane:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/MUTools/mTools/dovPlane/index.asp
Edited 7/5/2006 2:06 am ET by derekcohen
Hi Dave, technically, that would be a near impossible joint to make even with my in-cannel gouges. I assume this is a leg to column sliding DT? In any case, plug in the appropriate terms if not.
Just thinking out loud here. If I were set on using that joint, I would be tempted to use my pattern maker's planes with the appropriate soles and cut the entire hollow. Then, either mortise fairly deep, and use a glued in long DT but with a straight tongue for the leg's mortise, or use a double-sliding DT. First mortise both leg and column, shape the mortise into the appropriate angles and use a long DT key to lock both pieces to each other.
Or, and most likely, I would scribe flats on the column the width of the leg, the leg would have the DT as drawn--but the end of the leg would be flat, not concave and would fit against the flat on the column.
Hmm. Good puzzle. Any more info on what this joins to? If it is in the thread, I must have missed it.
Take care, Mike
Edited 7/5/2006 3:31 am by mwenz
Mike, we have just offered the same solutions. Either we are equally brilliant or equally dumb! Let's decide this after we hear from others! :>)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hah--we did.
I was thinking more about this. Traditionally it was a flat mating surface and on larger diameter columns, the male DT'd portion light undercut, just not to a matching round and not actually clear to the base of the male DT. Just a light hollow. iirc, that helped to ensure a tight joint much like undercutting a tenon's shoulder. But the mating surface was still flat I believe.
Alf's music stand is flat male DT against a round column.
Take care, Mike
This joint is a saga of moving on from mistakes.
A few years ago I had to buy too much jarra to get hold of some 60mm stock for legs. I found a plank but had to buy about twice the amount I needed.
I then decided that I needed a stand lamp, and that this bit of Jarrah would look good. Turning wasn't a problem, but the long boring didn't work all that well (first serious try) which cost me one length of timber. I now didnt have enough timber to make the heavy round base intended, which would have been simple. So- I had done three legs with sliding divetails once before so tis was a suitable design mod.
Ambition got the better of me. Seeing I had some thick stock which was pretty rare, I conceived a design where the top of the legs would meet, covering all of the circumference of the central leg. If I cut flats I wouldnt have enough meat so that was out. Hence the current design. Will taper the legs and scrape some detail into the top for interest - haven't got that far yet.
The attached files show my progress. First and second efforts pretty obvious. The fisrt can be assembled and sort of works but looks untidy I havent tried to fit the second yet, but it is much better shaped and tok a fraction of the time. The template was not a good idea. It was much more accurate to mark out directly, but took a while to work out how. So it has been a bit of an adventure, but nothing ventured...
Dave
PS. My mates keep telling me how much I need to replace the benchtop.
The missing pics
I enjoyed reading the evolution of your project and am impressed with your solution.
The bench top speaks of many happy hours in the shop, if only it could talk!
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Hi Lataxe,
I bought a set of these detail chisels from Lee Valley a few years ago and they work well.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46035&cat=1,41504
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazz,
Not 1 hour ago, I was sat in the garden with the ladywife, guzzling fizzy white wine, gawping at the swallows a-hawking insects as the sun went down and .....reading the Lee Valley catalogue. Naturally, the page was open at them DT chisels you mention; and I'm thinking, "Can I add yet another handtool item to the growing list"?
I cast a surrepticious glance at the ladywife, who is just the right degree of sozzled and stroking the cat on her knee, therefore content with the world and all that's in it, including (by definition) my tool list.
Well, the moment was ripe, so I pounced. "These look like just the DT chisels I need, DarlinK; wotyoofink"? In the cat-cuddling-sozzle mood, the answer is always, "Yes".
Now, should I take advantage, in the sober light of day tomorrow morning, just before I send her off to work? Hmmmm.....perhaps I'll wait a bit 'til evening time, when the working day is over and the cat's back on the knee.
They are just the ticket, by the look of them. Have you cut yourself on the bevelled edges much? It was the only aspect of them that looked a bit worrisome.
Lataxe, with too much fizz on board.
I a couple of the Iles from Tools for Working Wood. I used them on jatoba (Brazilian Cherry, the most miserable hard wood loaded with silica I have ever seen) and they worked beautifully. Since I assumed that initially I would only need a limited selection I stuck with 3/8 and 1/2 inch. Will probably add more later.
"The measure of a good furniture plan is one that requires new skills and new tools."
D,
Those Iles are sounding better all the time. I might have 1/2, 3/8 and a 1/4 though (as those are the mortise widths I've customarily used in my woodrat mortised furniture to-date).
Am I right in thinking the bevels are quite point at about 15 degrees but that you put a very pronouced bevel on the end (up to 10 degree or more)? I read a web page that suggested so, because you then get ability to make sharp cuts but with a still-strong tip.....?
Thanks
Lataxe
The ones I have are the mortising chisels with a primary bevel at 30 and a secondary of 31. For cleaning out the dovetails, I bought a couple of Japanese chisels with a very flat side bevel to reach into the corners. The Ray Iles hold an edge extremely well. I found the video on dovetails by Jim Kinshott (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com) extremely helpful. It gave me the confidence to pack away my DT machines and jigs and do it by hand.
Hi Lataxe,
You're a marvelous storyteller!
It's ironic that you mention being cut by the beveled edges; one of the admonitions I routinely give new students learning to sharpen standard bench chisels is to use a bit of fine sandpaper to ease the arris where polished backs meet sides lest they slice their fingers while experiencing what, for many, will be their first hand-work with a truly sharp chisel.
These Chan-designed detail chisels are delicate little tools, and their angled sides allow one to reach into the tiniest nooks and crannies to remove reluctant bits of wood fiber with relative ease; of course, they're not made to be used with a mallet.
When I received mine they were well-shaped and sharp enough to begin experimenting with straight out of the box. I didn't have to spend time flattening the backs or re-shaping the bevels, although I did hone them on ceramic stones, after which they did cut a little cleaner and easier. And, yes, I did remember to ease the arris so I couldn't find myself wondering why my dovetails were inexplicably tinged with crimson ; - )
Nice chatting with you,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 7/2/2006 7:58 pm by jazzdogg
Have you cut yourself on the bevelled edges much? It was the only aspect of them that looked a bit worrisome.
I too have a set. Well, two sets. I use two or three of the chisels on every saw. I do like them enough that I will buy the replacements in the set when these I use most wear down--which will be my third ones.
Depending on the wood you work, you may find them a touch soft. The fishtail chisel has two advantages. One of course is the harder steel with better edge retention. The second is that for cleaning out HB sockets, the shape allows easier access.
I've never cut myself on the sides of them...
Take care, Mike
Jazz,
Could I ask you if you use all the chisels in the Lee Valley set (including those skews perhaps)? I ask because I don't want to buy redundant ones and buying a set seems very little cheaper than buying individually, as I don't want the box the set comes in.
I wondered, for instance, whether that 1/16 incher is used much?
I also wonder if there's one to be had from somewhere else that's 3/8", as its a bit of a gap from 1/4 to 1/2".
Of course, I would really like metric ones. :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Once again, I'd recommend technique over tools. 18th c British furniture makers did all their fine London pattern dovetails with square sided firmers. They didn't use bevel edged chisels. Sheffield didn't make them. So I think there's a level of much ado about nothing with specialty dovetail chisels. Skip em. You'll be fine.
More and more I've been trying to qualify or at least provide some context for my advice. In this case; Brother, I don't work really hard woods. So I couldn't tell you whose chisel would work better in jatoba. But I can say that I use a technique that seems a bit easier on the tool and is easier than the alternative in hard woods. I've written about it quite a bit and its gaining popularity. I basically pare out mortises, pushing the tool with my shoulder. Its origins are controversial, but all I can tell you is, it works and it may be worth a try on your curled jungle wood. Because I don't wail on the chisel, I can work with a softer edge and with a lower angle. You may find that any good joiner's chisel will work with such a technique in your wood. Give it a try before you talk yourself into CPM-3V.
Adam
Edited 7/2/2006 9:15 pm ET by AdamCherubini
So I think there's a level of much ado about nothing with specialty dovetail chisels. Skip em. You'll be fine.
Adam, I have read you saying the same on another occasion, and my voiced (written?) reaction is the same as my then unspoken one: unless you have some devilish technique, I simply cannot see how this is possible. And unless the technique is devilishy simple, then I cannot see how a novice (or even a reasonably experienced user) will cope.
Since you are using firmer chisels, here is a comparison of the types of firmers I own and use.
View Image
To the left are the traditional English (OK, Mathieson was Scottish, but there are two Woodcocks there), two Witherbys (which I consider to be more firmer than pairing owing to the thickness of the sidewall) in the middle, and two Berg pairing chisels to the right.
Now I really cannot work out how to use the English (OK, English/Scottish) firmers to pair inside dovetails (and I am not referring to their width, but rather to the thickness of the square sides). When did the fashion for skinny dovetails begin? Even non-skinny dovetails are less easily paired by the Witherbys than by the Bergs (which are SUPERB paring chisels owing to the thinness of the sidewalls).
The difficulty in cleaning out angled sections and difficult-to-reach corners has created a market for speciality chisels, such as angled pairing chisels and, as requested by Mike, this copy of one used by Rob Cosman (seen in one of his videos) for half-blind pins.
View Image
I find this very useful. (It is made from a rusted 1/2" Witherby).
I basically pare out mortises, pushing the tool with my shoulder.
I plan to try out your technique for morticing sometime. It does have a high wierdness factor, but I take you seriously, so I will give it a whirl (is not this a hobby for most of us - not life-and-death - and is not experimentation the food of life?). My only caveat is that I do a lot of work in hardwoods like Jarrah, and a mallet is a lot harder than my shoulder blade. Perhaps I will reserve this method for softwoods?
I want to echo what has been said about Oval Bolstered Mortice Chisels (if Joel hears one talk of "Pigstickers" he will do unmeantionables, so we do not mention ... what were they?). I hear excellent things about the Ray Isles OB mortice chisels. I now use Ye Olde English (or Scottish?) versions of the same, and consider them Wonderful (far better than the short and lightweight Japanese "toys" I previously used). I buy them quite cheaply on eBay since I look for the unhandled specimans, then rehandle them myself. Here are a few.
View Image
Lataxe, if you are looking for a DVD on morticing, the recent Rob Cosman offering is excellent IMHO (as a modern translation, understand :>) ).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 7/3/2006 2:51 am ET by derekcohen
Well, I don't know - I thought chisel-getting would be easier than saw-getting but the posts in this thread have already given me loads to ponder on. Already I feel "supplemtary questions" forming.
I now have the habit of downloading these (and relevant historical) threads from the ladywife's Internet-connected laptop onto a memory key. This goes into the standalone photo-processing PC and gets printed out. Then I sit on the pink leather settee in the conservatory for an hour, surrounded by tool catalogues, old WW mags and my printout. Bliss, especially with a cup of Hawain Kona coffee, a chocolate-covered brazil nut and the sun lighting up the ladywife's exquisite garden.
Slowly, slowly a saw/chisel list is curdling and taking shape in the old wetware.
But today I must go into the shed and do some actual woodwork - my last machine-oriented piece for a while. It's a Shakerish tallboy in cherry solid/veneered blockboard (the second of a pair) and is jointed almost exclusively with biscuits. It will give you proper woodworking lads apple-poxy, so I took some construction photos to shock you with in due course. :-)
Did I mention that I love Knots and all you characters in it. Oh look, I'm going all soppy.
Lataxe, happy as a swine in a bath of pearls.
Right, lud, send pictures.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Some pics of the biscuit-ridden tallboy that's finished along with some of the 2nd one under construction. Lookit all them biccies, man - its sinful! When I have larnt chiselling and so forth, I will try to make something similar but with through, wedged tenons for the dividers, narrow-dovetailed corners top & bottom and dovetailed drawers.
On the biscuited version, the long grain of the veneer on the side panels sticks well (albeit at right angles) to the long grain of the blocks in the blockboard dividers. The biscuits help to stick it all together but they're really there for alignment of the drawer dividers.
In my experience, blockboard does not move enough in the British climate to cause self destruction, at least in the humidity changes between a very hot, dry conservatory and a rather damp cellar. (I made an oak-faced blockboard TB similar to this one but with sabre feet and quarter-sawn oak drawers, which did show the humidity changes, but only via the changing depth of the larger drawers).
The drawers of the cherry TBs are birch plywood put together with a lock mitre joint and screwed/glued to bottoms also made of plywood but let into two wide, solid side runners - more heresy, got in part from FWW.
I try to make it look like "real" furniture by using heavy solid lipping, inlaying that solid home-made maple stringing, using solid cherry for drawer-fronts and making the feet of older cherry that's a bit darker, for contrast. The blockboard has what I think is called flitch-sawn veneer - looks like a series of planks.
The fine hare that lives on the finished cabinet is Roderick, a dissolute old hare modelled by Elaine Peto from life. (Roderick had just returned from a heavy night's debauchery so looks a little dissipated).
Lataxe, biscuit-free sawyer and chiseller from next week, for a while.
Roderick reminds me of someone I know on a Sunday morning after a successful 6 Nations campaign at Murrayfield the day before. That appearance on Sunday mornings due to that cause has-- of course-- been quite rare the last few years. However, it was a vintage year this year, ha, ha. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Roderick was, as you probably know, fly-half for Clun XV before that collie took a bite at his left rear waddler. He needs the drink and drugs for the pain, you know. (In his leg and the emotional pain of no longer being able to drop-kick from 45 yards).
Lataxe, remembering the sounds of leather on leather and the snap of bone.
Lataxe, I can see that you are well qualified to extract huge concessions from the Purse String Chancellor. Some may now look down upon you because of the mere presence of a Biscuit Joiner on your premises, but I would think you have made appropriate use of it, even though I have never used one.
Seeing the noble Roderick there reminded me of that Englishman who carved a small mouse emblem into each piece-perhaps you could do a similar thing?
I have to admit to some feelings of sympathy over the defeat of the football team at the feet of the Portuguese-but they were only momentary. Did you know that Portugal is one of the very few countries with which the Crown has not had a full-on war? (Anyway, the Poruguese would have had no cannons or balls as they used all the cast iron to make Pinheiro Woodworking machines -real stuff).
The last for the benefit of those who want only to talk about woodwork related matters.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Defeat, what defeat? I was in the shed and the tele was Off. Of course, Le Tour is on just now but even that seems - well - just a bunch of blokes on their bikes, really. There was no one there from the Lune Cycle Racing Club, anyway. :-)
The Mouseman lived and worked just a few miles from where the ladywife were born and inculcated into the saintly mien she now displays. He was in Thirsk and she was in Yarm. (Fine Norse place-names). Not at the same time, though but, as the ladywife is but a bairn compared to me and thee.
We do have some very Mouseman-ish Arts & Crafts furntiure inherited from the now defunct parents-in-law (bless them for creating the ladywife and not having me cudgelled away as soon as they seed me). This furniture was made by Albert Jefferies (I think that's the spelling), a Mouseman apprentice, also practicing in Thirsk. Every surface of the English oak (for that is what it is made of) is adzed rather than planed. Remarkable stuff.
I'm surprised you are without biscuit jointer, you being the perfect amalgam of ancient and modern WW traditions. Mind - them biccies aren't as strong as a few brass straps wrapped around the corners, I suppose. What you really need, though, is a new Festo tool that cuts brass corner rebates and then clags a brass corner in, via the firm press of a Green Button. I'm sure they'll invent one in a year or so. (Get the patent on it now). The Fescampaigner.
Incidentally, it's no good teasing us with stories of arcane Portuguese technology - send the pictures and/or web address please.
Lataxe, forgetting all about the original subject of this thread, despite having drooled over Mike's saw-website and various chisels (purchase list being composed).
DErek,
The thick registered chisels you show isn't what adam has in mind.
early 19th century bench chisels are fishtail, and taper in thickness to a very thin section at the devel. And they are not beveled.However even going to a later period with bevel edge chisels they do not come to a knife edge on the sides at all. They also don't neck in fishtail like the ones you ground. THere is no need. with wide spaces between though pins or tails any chisel can be tilted to get in the sharp corner and for narrow spaces and blind dovetails skew chisels work brillantly. a "dovetail chisel" with knive edges will cut you and if you fishtail a chisel like you did in a few years of prefessional work sharpening will require a new chisel. Also your chisel is too wide for daity old style pins and a tilted 1/4" or 1/8" stock vbevel edge chisel will work just as well for the size joint. While you can nickel and dime adam on whether or not early 19th century chisels are better than mid - 19th century beveled edge chisel s in both cases tradional shapes evolved to work efficently. joel
Edited 7/3/2006 9:39 am ET by testtest
Hi Derek,I agree 100%, and felt exactly the same way as you. None the less, those Englishmen, in America or at home were absolutely using square sided chisels for those tiny dts.Here's one key: Those "traditional" firmers look to have been made in the 20th c or late late 19th. The bolters look machined. Either way, they are poor copies of traditional fimers. 18th c and early 19th c firmers were considerably thinner, often little more than 1/16" at the cannel. I don't think any of mine are more than 3/16". We would need someone to do some real engineering, but the square side is stringer than then beveled edge, i.e., it supports the edge better. Could be that the square sides allowed them to go thinner, than if they beveled their edges. Other cultures had bevel edged chisels.So with a thinner chisel (I use W. Butcher chisels) the technique is not different. You choose a chisel slighly smaller than that gap (my trick is to size the gap based on the chisel) and go for it. If some material remains in the corners, youu simply get a smaller chisel and chase it out. Its not a big deal.So I'm not saying not to get bevel edged chisels. I'm saying you don't need special chisels.As to the mortising, since I'm paring at a low angled, the force required is pretty low. Adam
Hi Adam
Those "traditional" firmers look to have been made in the 20th c or late late 19th. The bolters look machined. Either way, they are poor copies of traditional fimers. 18th c and early 19th c firmers were considerably thinner
Yes, I have always thought that these were more useful for framing (which is how I have used them) than anything delicate. I would dearly love a look at your chisels. Can you post a few pictures? In my mind they looked like my registered firmers, which clearly from your and Joel's comments, they are not. My apologies for teasing you so in that case.
As to the mortising, since I'm paring at a low angled, the force required is pretty low.
Actually, that is how I use my mortice chisels as well (well, at least until the mortice has been established to a depth of about 1/2").
Regards from Perth
Derek
A couple chisel pictures for you Derek. Sorry the quality isn't better, but these show the square sided chisel in use and the results of its use. I undercut the baseline, but I've left way more than usual just for pictoral purposes.Adam
Hi Adam
Many thanks for the pictures. Your firmer chisels are indeed sleeker than I imagined. I imagine that you need to pare head-on into the acute angles with the bevelled end, compared to paring along the angled wall with a bevel edged chisel? I assume this is why bevelled edge chisels became popular since one can use a wider bevel edge chisel and therefore work faster - ?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek and All,
Here are two Butcher firmers I recently rehandled...
Take care, Mike
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