Hi folks,
I’m looking to purchase a couple nice mortise chisels. I’m looking at Sorby and Hirsch only because the are in the LV catalog and I trust LV to carry decent stuff. Anybody out there have any pro’s or con’s of one brand versus the other?
If you like other brands better, I’ll certainly consider them.
I’ll be using them for furniture size mortises, not timber framing sized work.
Chris
Replies
I've been using the Crown (Sheffield) mortising chisels. They're not bad; haven't had any problems with them, and they take and hold an edge pretty well. No experience with the Hirsch or Sorby's.
Edited 2/8/2006 2:22 pm ET by pzgren
There's a nice bit of text on mortising chisels on http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com as well as several mortising chisel offerings. I have been very happy with their support and items purchased from the web site. Bought a couple of their Iles mortising chisels but haven't used them much yet.
I have the Hirsch, which I like- haven't tried the Sorby or the Iles, but they get good press (FWIW).
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hi. I went through the same thing about a year ago. I had purchased some CF Falls or something from an on line store. Hated them they where pure crap. Not even close to square. The machine lines where so prominent that they locked the chisel in the mortise. For the money and time they cost me I could have gotten a good set of either Hirsch or Sorby.
I spent something afterword looking at both the Hirsch and Sorby's Mortise chisels. I spent some time using both at another wood workers shop. I liked both, but I choose the Sorby's. The reason was the size of the handle. The Hirsch Chisels handles are massive, really massive. I liked and wanted the smaller handles for the work I'm doing. I now have 3, purchased 1 at a time as needed. Another point is that the Hirsch chisels are metric, my Sorby's are Imperial. This was not important to me and may not be important to you.
If I needed a really heavy duty mortise chisel I would not hesitate to go with the Hirsch. I feel I have better control with the Sorby's.
Another difference is the Hirsch blades are thicker. I have found the Sorby's thick enough.
Just don't bye CF Falls, or any other chisel advertised as Swedish, or Swedish Steel. They are probably not either. I heard a story that they are made from scrap ship steel in India! Not sure if that's true, but the quality of the chisels would support that story.
Will Graham
Anyone want to buy my "Swedish Steel" junk.
scrap ship steel ..A 'BIT' off topic but I have heard that the steel from OLD ships is much better (than) that made today.. I do not know why?Old as I recall was Pre/during WWII.. After that not as good...Just a comment from a old brain...I forgot..I have some Robert Sorby and some old Sheffield (Crown)..
Both are fine for me.. However the handles on the Sorby I like ALOT better... Steel hold a edge about the same.. (For what I do anyway)Edited 2/8/2006 7:11 pm by WillGeorge
Edited 2/8/2006 7:12 pm by WillGeorge
From what I have seen on news shows / documentaries the ships scraped are circa 1970's, mainly single hull supertankers. Looked like dangerous work for a few rupees a day.
I have had no problem with my Sorby Mortis Chisels. I use them a couple of times a week. I find they are easy to sharpen and hold up to my pounding.
As to why the new steel is not as good as old steel, the amount of recycled scrap added to the melt, increased effort to drive out cost from ship production after the war. IE single hull super tankers.
I did a case study in school and those tankers would have a payback of 2 or three trips from the gulf to the east coast. After that it was all profit. That did not inspire building ships for the long term. After the Exxon Valdez and other tanker oil spills the cost of insurance drove them off the oceans onto India's scraping beaches.
Pre-1900 iron has more impurities in it, like silica, which makes it better suited for edge tools. Many of those coveted Japanese edge tools are made from iron salvaged from old anchors, chains, and boilers.
I think, I THINK you guys are talking about wrought iron. Wrought iron is not for edges because it contains no carbon and cannot be hardened. They don't make wrought iron anymore (well..there's this museum in England making it, but that's another story). And its true it contains some silica which makes it somewhat corrosion resistant. It was used to make the bodies of axes and chisels and the like. Its easy to form and tends not to burn. Although the temperature required to forge weld it is higher than steel, its my understanding that it welds readily (or more readily than steel).
I'm working on an article on this subject, so this is all still fresh in my mind. I think its slated for the October issue of PW in case you are interested. I've found this subject to be fascinating both from a woodworking perspective and from an engineering perspective. I think laminated tools are pretty darn cool.
Adam
Weren't the pre-1900 laminated plane irons made with wrought iron for the backing and tool steel as the cutting edge? I have an Ohio Tool Co coffin plane and the back of the iron has hammer marks all over it. They could be from the welding process, but do you have any info on this?The straw color you referred to- isn't that the desired color for the final hardening of edge tools after forging? I remember making a screwdriver in metal shop and the tip was supposed to be straw colored. We used the other end (before adding the handle and cutting to final length) for hardening to varying degrees, then testing to see how durable it would be.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yeah- Pretty sure everybody used wrought iron for plane blade bodies.
Okay- I'm with you. There are two sets of colors- the colors of really hot steel, glowing with heat, and the temper colors that can be observed in a polished surface. You're talking about the latter. But I say skip it. Just use your oven.
I was talking about the former. The charts say 1500 is dull red or so. And 1500 is the critical temp for W-1 (old file steel). But these colors (either tempering or heating colors) are difficult to see or judge without experience (that I obviously don't have). So my advice is to use a tempilstik.
Just to reiterate, the lesson I learned was that the critical temperature (to reharden a sorby chisel for example) is achievable with a gas torch. You won't be able to "forge" with that torch, because forging temperatures are at least 500F higher than critical. I guess I always figured the critical temperature, when the iron is absorbing carbon in this "solution" state, corresponded to the soft or "plastic" physical properites of the steel. Not so. Critical temperature is easy to achieve, maybe 5 minutes of torch time, and you're not going to set the house on fire.
Adam
I've read recently that at the hardening temperature the tool steel will not be attracted to a magnet, and that can be confirmation that it's reached the right temperature.
Any truth to that?
David C.
Again I got a D in this class (I'm not kidding). I think that's only true for steels with .77% carbon. Steels with either more or less will go non-magnetic before the critical temperature is achieved. I think.
BTW, I tried this with a rare earth element magnet and it grabbed the channel locks I was using as tongs! I'm much more comfortable with the tempilstik.
Adam
IIRC, the dull red was called "cherry red" in my shop class and was reached after the piece had cooled previously. We didn't get into whether it would attract a magnet, but after reaching the cherry red stage with the teacher looking over my shoulder and watching it cool to straw and quenching it, that screwdriver was durable! I don't know how many times I dropped it tip down on concrete, but it never chipped or dulled. It dulled from wear eventually, but not from dropping. Did you get your Tempilstick from a welding supplier?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Did you get your Tempilstick from a welding supplier?"
I couldn't find a welding supply place nearby, so I ordered it from an industrial supply house.
Adam
Did you get your Tempilstick from a welding supplier
Yep I welded it on the wood handel Handle
?
Hi chaps, herewith a couple of thoughts from England on Wrought Iron ....
Used extensively during the (UK) industrial revolution (and) before tool steels had been invented . Essentially almost pure iron with loads of the slag "folded in". These impurities were drawn out in one direction - or "wrought". Easily handwelded welded in the forge, high resistance to corrosion. Very tough and used for years in couplings for rail carriages/trucks. Used to build the first propellor driven steam ship the SS Great Britain, also used to build the Eiffel Tower . .
Martin
http://www.sanjo-kogyokai.or.jp/section00_e.htm
http://www.ibiblio.org/japanwood/phpBB2/
check out these sites
the top is a link for a japanese toolmakers coop. with downloadable video. the chisel maker is master Tasai. when he is forging he places a high carbon piece on top of a white hot wrought iron (no carbon/ cant burn). then the shaping of the shank (wrought iron) is done with a sen (drawknife for metal). all done very rapidly.
the second site is for people interested in using japanese tools, ive found it very informative and the members are quite helpful.
jeff stafford
indianapolis
Japanese.. I saw something on that.. This guy had a old ship anchor in his yard? My Plasma torch could NOT cut it.. And he uses hand tools? Geeeee
Sorby was once a great company but alas no longer. They no longer make a traditional mortiser, or any chisel I would consider appropriate for mortising, regardless of what the ad says. Their steel is routinely panned as among the softest on the market (see FWW's bench chisel review a few years ago). A mortise chisel is no place for second rate metallurgy.
Hirsch makes fine chisels and their handles, contrary to popular belief, are reflective of earlier traditional designs in their size and heft. These aren't delicate tools handled like carving tools. Large handles and stout bolsters are required to receive the heavy blows used when mortising. Hirsch/kirschen steel is among the best (or the best) non-japanese steel available today (ref FWW's article). My hesistation in recommending these tools lies only in their metric sizes.
Illes chisels are the most reflective of earlier chisels available today. Ray Illes has painstakingly reproduced all the details typical of fine early tools, from the oval bolster, drafted sides, and well shaped handles. The only thing I'd like to know more about is the steel. Its an alloy I'm not familiar with, and I understand it is wear resistant to the point of being difficult to sharpen. If true, this is easy enough to overcome and better than the alternative. My preference is for antiques since they have all the attributes needed for a good chisel and their laminated blades hold an edge well while remaining very easy to sharpen (the main body of the chisel is soft wrought iron). I understand that restoring antique tools is not for everyone.
In an article I wrote last year for PW, I discussed the advantage of having matching tools. If you buy into this theory, this alone may make up your mind for you. If you are making raised panel doors for example, its advantagous to create the groove for the panel first, then create the mortises. If the mortise chisel is the exact size as the groove, the groove helps you align the chisel and the whole process becomes easier. If you find yourself working 4/4 stock, a 1/4" groove is appropriate and Hirsch .236" 6mm chisel won't work as well as a true .250 Sorby or Illes tool. If you are not doing frame and panel type stuff, but rather chairs, or general case work, you would do better to start with a 5/16" chisel. This will allow you to work stock thicker than 4/4. That being the case, Hirsch's 8mm chisel is approx 5/16" and may do fine for you.
Adam
Adam,
I have the Ray Iles mortice chisel in 1/4-inch size. I've sharpened it a couple of times and I really don't notice much of a difference in how difficult it is to sharpen it compared to other, all tool-steel chisels. I know the D2 steel is supposed to be harder to grind and hone, and it is not supposed to get as sharp as other alloys (O1 etc.) but I don't notice a difference, in morticing anyway.
Metallurgical Voodoo aside, the biggest difference in my opinion is the you can really smack the snot out of them and hang off of them while levering waste out without worry, they look and feel like they can take it. This adds to the confidence in the tool and the work gets done faster with greater certainty. It's good for the blood pressure too!
So far I really like it, I don't do too much morticing that's not 1/4-inch, but If I do I'll get more of them.
David C.
Thanks for the info. These tools are relatively new to the market, and while its my belief that sales are brisk, I'm not sure how many have been resharpened. I've only heard from a few users. I'm glad you've had a positive experience.
Adam
Adam,
I also have the pig stickers from Ray Isles and they do sharpen as easy as anything else. In fact, I was slightly disappointed that one of the chisels can with an edge that was not square. Nor did I find that the angles of the edge matched what was written in the paper that came with them. So, I decided to fix that. Flatten and polished the backs, changed the angles, etc., (to suite me) and those pigs will root! One of the nicest features is the, I forget how it's worded, back is marginally wider than the front edge, trapezoidal or something like that. Never the less, you never have any trouble pulling the chisel back out of the stock. The big handle gives you the leverage to make a slight twist and it's free! That in itself caused me to buy a couple more. AND, they sharpened so well, I had to have 18 stitches in my calf from a 5/16" one. As my wife commented, "Well, looks like the pig sticker stuck!". It wasn't exactly a humorous moment for me.
Rusty
AND, they sharpened so well, I had to have 18 stitches in my calf from a 5/16" one.
YIKES sorry about your calf. I hope you got the blood off it really fast. Roy Underhill says blood stained tools really get rusty fast. Hope the edge wasn't too badly damaged when it hit the floor.
I speared myself with a center bit that slipped out of my post vise while I was sharpening it (so hard to hold those tapered shanks). I stuck my hand under it to catch it and it sunk 3/8" into my palm. Hurt like heck, but I'd do it again. That sure is a nice center bit and my hand has healed completely!
Seriously, sorry about the accident. You really can hurt yourself with hand tools. Check out my latest PW article to see my latest injury!
Adam
I had to have 18 stitches in my calf from a 5/16" one. I had one from a 1/5.. But it was a empty bottle of Jack.. I said 'HI' to his wife?
Hi, Adam and all - Sheesh - you folks gotta get out of the bleedin' overly-bloody bleeding business!1) Invest in a bunch of Griz' comparably inexpensive foam floor mats to provide at least a minimimum of protection for dropped tools. (They're nice underfoot, too...) Then learn to use them ...2) Reverse your instincts, get out of the way, and let the falling sharp ones go where they may. Move yer danged feet, too. Yup - difficult. Practice. Practice some more. Uhhh - it's shrapnel - be somewhere else real quick-like.Like "everyone" else, I'm one of those who wonders where some of the small skin nicks come from - it's not heroism, they just seem to appear from somewhere in the Bloody Gotcha Ether. And I DO hate to let a tool drop. However, the heavy and sharp tools are worthy of consciously developing some different habits. Expensive, hard-to-get edges are a shame to lose, but those super-edges are easily capable of severing nerves and causing what may be permanent injury. For every "dumb" close call, there's an emergency room tragedy happening somewhere else. Get outta the danged way, let 'em go, cry in your beer, and come back to enjoy it tomorrow - - in one piece!AND - for the inevitable dumb moves, get some Coverlet brand (try Google) bandages. They stay on forever and keep the bleedin' blood off the bloody work ....Regards to all,---John
Edited 2/24/2006 6:09 am ET by PJohn
Dear Abby-I have found that wearing a catcher's mitt keeps me from being cut to ribbons after dropping sharp tools. They do, however, make it hard to hold onto some of the smaller ones. What am I doing wrong?Signed,Reformed Pincushion
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Well, dear, are you remembering to wear it on the catching hand? Using the newfangled Techron-reinforced Kev-Flex UltraNoStab instead of chain mail? Cleaning behind your ears each evening? Avoiding nosepicking when others can observe?Uhhhh - no offense intended, don't mean to preach to the choir. Ya never know when a tyro - participating or onlooking - may need a little push to think a bit harder about not losing digits. Ol' Nelly here gets a bit nervous when the safety talk turns frivolous.---John
Edited 2/24/2006 2:18 pm ET by PJohn
Adam,
'Their steel is routinely panned as among the softest on the market (see FWW's bench chisel review a few years ago). '
I could not agree with you more. The LOML bought me a set of the very beautiful and quite expensive Octagonal Boxwood Handled bench chisels that Sorby makes. I love the feel of the handles, but the steel is very very disappointing. I have a 33' bevel on the them and can hardly keep the edge from rolling, just using them as bench chisels. Can't imagine that steel being used in a mortising chisel.
Best of luck
Bob,
I just finished building a tiny gas forge. I was concerned about the temperatures I was getting so I purchased a tempilstik. I was shocked at how easy it was to achieve a critical temperature*. At 1500 deg F, W-1 steel is still pretty much black.
I think it might be worth your while to buy yourself a tempilstik (get 1500). It will cost you about $18+ shipping. And heat up those chisels until the tempilstik melts on em, and plunge 'em in oil. If you can, try to get the handles off then stick one or all in your kitchen oven preheated to 350F for about 20 minutes. Air cool and try them again and see what you get. The steel is probably fine. My guess is they just aren't hardened as high as they can. This may be to "idiot-proof" their product.
Be sure to get a second opinion on the heat treating technique. What I really want to tell you is that the critical temperature you need (roughly 1500F) is pretty mellow and achievable with a hand held (I use MAPP) torch (propane would probably work). Just make sure the blade is heated thru (keep moving the heat). You need the straw color for forging- but that's much much hotter than critical.
Adam
*critical temperature is the temperature at which a given steel changes its structure from ferrite+cementite to austenite. In this heated structure, the iron can absorb carbon. If you slow cool from there, the carbon will get pushed out of the iron, leaving you with no hardness (this is annealing). If you quickly cool (quench), the carbon won't have time to get pushed out and will be trapped forming Martensite (which is what you want).
Martensite is probably too brittle to be of use to us, so you can coax out some of the carbon by applying a little heat. The hotter the steel gets, the more carbon will be coaxed out, softening the steel as it goes.
I got a D in this class so this is the third grade version of a complicated subject, but I think this is the gist of it. I haven't tried this with a real chisel yet (I sold my sorbys long ago). Let me know if it works.
Adam,
Thanks for the suggestion on the tempilsik, if I get the guts might give it a go.<!----><!----><!---->
What is interesting about the steel, is a tell tail diamond prick from a Rockwell hardness tester was quite visible on each of the backs of the blade of the chisels. Evidentially Sorby must have liked what they tested, which kind of plays into your theory of "idiot-proofing' the steel or they didn't care, which kind of begs the question why bother to use the tester on the steel in the first place.
.
Adam
Interesting post! I have a question. I was under the impression that changing the temper in tool steel was at 600°, not 1500°. And, placing it in the over at 428° for about an hour gave the desired temper. The example I just gave was for taking an old file and lowering it's hardness in order to make it stronger, and not so brittle at the cutting edge. Is this completely different than what you are discussing, and if so, what am I missing?
Also, ( I guess I'm asking for a little preview of your upcoming article! :-) ) what is the difference between cooling the steel in water vs. oil, as you suggested.
Thanks,
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
I believe the process you are referring to is annealing, which basically is heating and cooling the steel slowly in order to reduce the hardness of the steel, in attempt to make it tougher .
My (late) dad was a manufacturing engineer who knew this stuff cold.. It's kind of sad commentary that we need to know how to properly heat treat a tool that someone else (Sorby in this case) manufactured..
Thanks for jogging my memory! I knew it was something along those lines. Thanks for the reply.
Is what Adam is referring to the proper procedure when, say a tool has been overheated at the grinder, and has lost it's ability to properly hold an edge? I have seen more than a few older chisels that have been abused this way, and it would be good to discuss here the proper way to repair this problem, and restore an old tool to it's original glory. It's not always the manufacturer's fault, I'd guess.
Jeff
IIRC, because water will boil at ~212 F and oil has a much higher boiling temp, the oil stays in contact longer but carries the heat away at a different rate from that of water and due to this, the one quenched in oil will be stronger. IFF I remember this correctly and I don't have any drain bamage.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Alright! That's the third thing I learned today. Time to head to the tavern!
Thanks Jim.
Jeff
Edit: Hey, whatever came of all that white oak you got from me. I never heard back from you. Was it the diamond in the rough that I thought it was. Let me know.
Edited 2/10/2006 3:25 pm ET by JeffHeath
I skip planed a bunch of it, but haven't had a chance to make anything from it since I'm still finishing up my kitchen cab doors. My bro in CT bought a bungalow and I told him I would make something that would go with it, though. Most of it has pretty nice grain although there are a few pieces that are of inconsistent density. I'll take some pics of whatever I make. Did you ever contact the person in Green Bay with the soft curley maple? Last time I heard, he still had it and was getting more.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Not meaning to highjack this thread, but I found a source down in Kinderhook, Illinois for North American hardwood for silly prices. Most of my stock is still drying, as I have consumed alot of lumber lately (busy, busy boy!). I just got 300 bf of 5/4 cherry FAS for a song, $2.40 per bf. , all 10 foot lengths. Heck, it cost me 75 cents to mill my own logs! The truck is arriving Monday. I'll let you know how it is. He has cherry, walnut, maple, and the oaks. Cheapest I've seen.
Jeff
Jeff, would you e-mail me the contact info for that lumberyard, please?lwj2 at verizon dot netThanks,Leon
When steel is this hot, does it ever cause the oil to catch fire when the steel is plunged in?
And the answer is.........Alone and in your shop you would have to be quenching on an industrial scale... But I have seen it done in a school workshop where , and after a long morning of quenching, the class managed to get a couple of gallons up to sufficient temperature for it to ignite. Nothing serious.... Just a few flames reaching up towards the sprinklers....
I think the words temper and hardening don't mean much to woodworkers. Maybe it would help to talk in terms of where the carbon is:
In annealed (soft) steel the carbon and iron are essentially seperate
In tempered (good edge) steel the the iron and steel are mostly mixed together
In fully hardened (brittle) steel all the carbon is dissolved in the iron.To dissolve all the carbon, you need 1500f. If you slow cool from there, the carbon gets forced out. When you quench you lock in the carbon (ensuring a brittle tool). You can draw out some of the carbon by heating or over heating. But you'll never get all the carbon out until you get to 1500, then slow cool from there.So to answer your question directly, the higher the temperature of the temper, whether that be an intentional trip to the kitchen oven or careless grinding, the more carbon you will coax out of your steel solution and the softer your edge will become. Different steel alloys achieve different Rockwell hardnesses at different temper temperatures. There's no low temperature fix to the "I-wrecked-the-temper-in-my-$50-chisel" problem. The only solution is to heat above 1500 and start the whole process of heat-quench and temper over again. Of course its more complicated than this. Each cycle will likely cause the crystals to grow larger- I think large crystal steels are those we say "don't take an edge". Edge "holding" being a completely different matter. You can also loose carbon with subsequent heats.OIL/WATER
I can't explain the physics here. Oil cools slower, so there's less risk of cracking. Also there's an advantage in quenching large parts in oil. Otherwise steels are designed/best quenched in one medium or another A-2 is air quenched, O-1 is oil quenched, and W-1 is water quenched. You can safely quench most old tools in water or oil. Old file steel (sometimes called OFS) is generally high carbon W-1 like 1080 or 1095 which are .80% or .95% carbon.Adam
Two charts for visible colour to temps when hardening steel.Leon
Adam, You are correct in your description of the process of making a carbon steel brittle. Brittleness of course is defined as the property of hardness (resistance to penetration) but with a pronounced susceptibility to breaking easily (cracks in the material will propagate rapidly).
Traditionally in the shop, the brittleness is removed by polishing up the sharp end of the tool. Gently apply heat about 1 1/2" back from the edge. As the colours move to the edge quench at a very light straw colour.
This process is known as "Tempering" meaning; the hardness is retained but the brittleness has been reduced . There are endless combinations of hardness and temper depending upon the intended use.
I did not read the chisel review article in FWW. I now have both Sorby and Hirsh chisels to review and am curious as to any insight that you may have about these. I need to send one set back to LV. Any help would be much appreciated.
dlb
.
The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
I think you should go back and read two FWW articles: One was an oldie, reprinted in a FWW Best of Hand Tools. The other was fairly recent. I can dig up the issue number if you email me, but you should be able to do a search for it.
We were talking about mortise chisels. I don't think Sorby makes a mortise chisel. When we talk about bench chisels, other factors need to be considered. I think these two FWW articles do a great job.
The only other thing I can tell you, is an article of mine in PW last year discussed the importance of having the right sized chisel for the job. When comparing Hirsch and Sorby, recognize that you are comparing English and metric tools, so this may be a factor if you are sympathetic to that point of view. My article also discusses a few techniques I use (if I recall the article was titled "Advanced Chisel Technique"). I meant the article to be somewhat of a revision or addition, to Garret Hack's FWW article on bench chisels printed recently (I guess I would have liked Garret to show me stuff I didn't know- I guess that's what classes are for!).
I think its worth your time to go back and read these articles. I think together, they represent a decently comprehensive look at the subject. Watch for an article from me this fall on 18th c sharpening that will really cap off my understanding of this subject.
Adam
P.S. I don't think much about planes. I certainly don't think they deserve the chat they get. Chisels and saws deserve a lot more of our attention,IMHO.
My hesistation in recommending these tools [Hirsch] lies only in their metric sizes
I read your article in PopWW (Jan 06?) where you talk about there being no need to become obsessed by exact dimensions, so what is wrong with a metric mortise?Isn't it just a case of business as usual — you trim the tennon to fit
Ian
I suck.Ian there are two concepts I was trying to discuss. Tool slaving is where you just use the tool to define a feature's size. That's the one you're talking about.Then there's the "cooperative workshop/tools that work together" concept. That's where you match your mortise chisels to your plow plane irons (TS dado blades?) etc. So if you're doing a frame and panel door, you plow the groove for the door panel and that groove perfectly matches and guides the mortise chisel.Okay?Adam
Then there's the "cooperative workshop/tools that work together" concept. That's where you match your mortise chisels to your plow plane irons (TS dado blades?) etc. So if you're doing a frame and panel door, you plow the groove for the door panel and that groove perfectly matches and guides the mortise chisel.
I keep forgetting that there are 300 million odd people in North America who know very little about measuring in metric and that I'm from a generation that can sort of do inch to metric conversions on the fly.
as examples: 3mm is 1/8" (actually 7 thou less than 1/8") 5mm is 3/16" (actually 9 thou more than 3/16") 8mm is 5/16" (actually 2 thou more than 5/16")11mm is 7/16" (actually 4 thou less than 7/16")16mm is 5/8" (actually 5 thou more than 5/8")
so within a couple of thou, certain metric sizes match the sizes of certain imperial cutters.
ian
Sometimes I can fit metric wrenches on standard hardware, so I know what you mean. But it doesn't work out quite as well in woodwork. Hirsch makes a 3, 6, 8, and 10mm mortisers. Since our 4/4 stock is 3/4" surfaced, its preferable to have a chisel roughly 1/3 that thickness. So we stupid north americans would like a 1/4" chisel or maybe a little heavier for mortise and tenon work. 7mm would be fine, but Hirsch doesn't make one. 8mm is a bit too heavy for 4/4 stock, but would be fine for 5/4s. 6mm is a bit light, but it would be okay if we had a 6mm plow plane iron to match it. A plow with a 1/4" cutter would leave too much slop for this technique to work (basically using the groove to locate and guide the mortise chisel). A metric plow would be nice. ECE makes one. But the cutters they supply, (4,5,7,9,12) undoubted chosen to match imperial sizes, don't match Hirsch's 6mm chisel. Adam
If you're really going for accuracy, take the mm and divide by 25.4, then multiply by 128, 64, 32, 16, 8, 4 or 2 to get the fractional dimension. BTW, 16 mm is .078 over 5/8".Just being picky, but over the course of an entire job, tolerance stacking can really cause problems with the way things fit and look.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Adam,
Exactly! THAT'S why those European scrub planes don't work as well as a good ole American foreplane. They're making metric sized boards for us to try (pun intended) to smooth to fractional thickness!!
Har,
Ray Pine
A metric plow would be nice. ECE makes one. But the cutters they supply, (4,5,7,9,12) undoubted chosen to match imperial sizes, don't match Hirsch's 6mm chisel.
At the risk of becoming a sales brouchure ... Hirsch aren't the only German mortice chisel maker. ECE's 4, 5, 7, 9 12mm cutters might be intended to match with Two Cherries' mortise chisels of the same sizes.
BTW, what really does amuse me is router cutters specified in 64ths. Most if not all of these are metric sizes masqurading as imperial.
ian
I thought Hirsch and Two Cherries are the same chisels, just different brand names, made on the same line, just labeled differently. I have a mix of their beveled edge chisels and they are the same.
Speaking as an Englishman and reluctant member of the European Community, you guys want to thank your lucky stars (and stripes) that you do not have a bunch of idiots in Brussels (centre of all EU policy making) telling you that , among other things, everything but everything must be metric.
These dictats (all of which inevitably become are law across the whole of Europe) embrace not only: the size of a chisel, the size of the handle, the material from which the handle is made, the steel from which it is made and legislation on what happens if any part of the chisel should fail but also (I kid you not) the shape and size of a banana how straight a cucumber should be etc etc...
It is folks a nightmare.....and we the tax payers fund all this nonsense....
All that rampant bureaucracy sounds rather like a Kafkaesque nightmare...... My condolences that all you poor benighted Europeans are so helpless and clueless that the infinitely wise and humane Brussels bureaucrats must protect you from yourselves!! NOT!!!
I have to laugh, I was in Zurich, Tawille, Gattakon, Berne Lausanne and Firebug in Switzerland in the mid 90's with a dear ladyfriend. I was at one time a very good French speaker as a young man(2 years high school, 4 years college and 2 years with Uncle Sam's u-drive submarine tours in the Med.) It took me three days to start understanding passing conversation in the street and a week to start responding -with out thought- to conversation . It was an adjustment in tonal sharpness for language in hearing-french vs english- and it was scary. One of the things that I saw was that in Zurich the Suisse-Germans still think that they are the masters in control of the money, the French-Suisse know everything and that they both think that the Italian-Suisse should be digging in the roads. This is no different with the Belgians, Spanish, Checzs or the Nordics. They each carry their heritage around their necks like a stone. Martin, tell me are the Brits, Irish, Scots or Welch any different? Do we wait another 30 years? Peace, Padrig
Ah well now..........I fear we may be going off message but since you ask....
All nationalities and tribes will (naturally and understandably) forever carry their history with them . It is after all their identity. The "old" countries have a huge amount of history to contend with. Two examples from a "young" country like USA include: the Confederate flag flying on some buildings in the southern states, Irish bars in New York. These are valuable and important statements to the beholders.
What continually amazes and worries Europeans (and for all I know the rest of the world) in equal measure is: (a) that only 10% of Americans have passports and (b) the parochialism of Americans, in that very large numbers of same seemingly have little idea about the world beyond their state border .
Vox pops of Americans in the street when asked where is Iraq? Who are the Taliban ? etc throw up some alarming responses from the people who inhabit THE world's superpower ....
Cheers........
Edited 3/1/2006 3:24 pm by martindelittle
I apologize to all for the diversion and thanks for such a coherent reply, Padraig
That same lack of knowledge is the main reason those people frequently ask "Do you want fries with that?"If you think it's alarming, try listening to that kind of ignorance after living your whole life here. The TV viewing interests and habits of the people in this country say far too much. Mindless garbage on TV is absolutely rampant and it's not going to change any time soon, I'm afraid. There was a report of a study in the news not long that said only ~12% of parents think that the low public school test scores in math and science is a problem. There's also very little emphasis on physical fitness, and the nationwide obesity stats are disgusting. Way too many kids graduating from high school without a clue. Or a mind, for that matter.Sorry for the rant, but it's going to get worse before it gets better.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You guys sounds like grumpy old men. You can't judge 280 million people by what you watch on television. Exactly how many clueless high school students do you actually know? When you graduated from high school, how many of your classmates knew their geography?One of the most enlightening things I've done is substitute teach in a high school. Its an eye opening experience. Regardless of whether kids pants are falling off their back sides or not, kids are still kids.I also volunteer at a local living history museum. We actually try to complete woodworking projects in a timely manner as the general public looks on and asks questions. Other docents in other areas may feel the tourists who visit their sites are morons (they call them tourons- toursist-moron). I can't speak for someone else's experiences, but visitors to Pennsbury (where I volunteer) continually impress me with their patience, curiosity an intelligence. Not a day goes by that I don't learn something from my guests or have some really neat experience. Last year a large group of retired Russians came thru. None spoke english. They had a translator and we did the best we could. After our little demo, one of the older men came over and wanted to tell me that he remembered seeing tools like mine in his childhood. I think he was sort of touched coming so far from home and seeing something familiar.Before you guys decide to blow yourselves up in a public place, try some volunteer work and see if the public is really as bad as the TV makes them seem. I'm guessing you are all accomplished woodworkers. You could easily do something like I am doing, or contact your local shop teacher. He might enjoy having a special visitor with a new set of ideas for his students.Adam
It's not that I want to see bad things in this country, but I have also been in retail for over 25 years and have seen a lot of changes in the way kids of that age act, the questions they ask and how well they understand the answers given to them. I also read and watch the news, although I don't get as lathered up as the networks do. It's not just what people watch (and there's a lot of crap on TV), it's also how much time they spend sitting there in front of their big horkin' TV. There is good programming, but the bad stuff is there because there are enough viewers to make the advertisers spend their money on those shows.I know there are some great kids out there but my problem is with the parents, who think their kids will be fine if left alone most of the time, with no proper guidance. I also blame the school systems that pass the kids through without proficiency in subjects that will definitely be needed later in life. Geography is just one example and while it's not the most interesting subject for a lot of people, it's still good to know about it. Where I went to HS, passing geography was required, as were English, math, history and science. They want a GPS but can't read a map. Talking with people from other parts of the world can be enlightening, too. In HS, there were two brothers from Prague and when our mid-term grades came out, the one in my algebra class just stared at his card, shaking his head. He was disappointed that he got a B+ and then said he was very bored in the class since he had already done everything we were covering when he was in their equivalent of third grade. Mike works for NASA now. In my physics class, we had a transfer student from Iran and he was the only one who could easily convert from Celsius to Fahrenheit. You volunteer in a high school but is any single school truly representative of the country, as a whole? I don't think so. I do think it's great that you can volunteer where you do and I think part of the reason that your local living history museum exists is that where you are, there's more of a sense of pride in local history. IIRC, you're in/near Philadelphia, right? A lot happened there when the country was being formed and it should be preserved, but many parts of the country don't seem to have the same interest in their own local events, past or present. One thing about shop classes- the kids who sign up for them actually want to be there, in most cases. Unfortunately, many school systems are eliminating shop from their curriculum because as an elective, there's not enough student interest to justify the expense of keeping it going and they probably don't want the liability issues. When I was in woodshop, we didn't even work with handplanes, scrapers or chisels. We had a really nice shop and most of the shop teachers were excellent, but they were teaching more about power tools than fine hand work. They may have used hand tools more in another class, but in the ones I was enrolled, we didn't. I would never think about blowing up myself or anyone else, in public or otherwise. I do think I'm going to start attending school board meetings, though. I'm sure it would be enlightening. Keep doing what you are- passing the information along is a great thing.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Adam,
You mentioned working at Pennsbury Manor. Do you know George Lott? Used to volunteer there I believe, before he moved back here to VA.
Regards,
Ray
I met George once before I started volunteering there. George's influence on the shop is still evident. He's a fine fine woodworker and was a real asset to the joinery. We brag about the chest over drawers he built regularly!
Adam
Adam,
If that chest over drawers is in the William and Mary style, he brags on it pretty regularly too! George is one of the finest people that it has been my privilege to know. He's helped me in the shop here on a couple occasions when I had too much fat in the fire for my own good. Very generous, and talented in any number of areas-woodworking, archery, flintknapping, leatherwork,music; he blushes (modest, too!) when I call him this, but he is a real renaissance man. He's in the process of building his third foot powered lathe. This one is a springpole design, to augment the two treadle types he has already built.
His only flaw, as far as I can tell, is his ungodly love of that wretched instrument, the bagpipe.
Cheers,
Ray
I've always been curious as to how you guys figure out how much lumber (timber) you're buying when you buy 100 to 300 bd. ft.
Let me confess that I lived in Australia for a couple years in the early 90s and once bought a cubic meter of jarrah. To me, as an American, it was a total PITA figuring how much I bought and how much I paid with the American-converted-to-Aussie dollars. All was forgiven when I got it, though, as it was some really nice lumber (timber).
to be honest I don't know either.
I generally figure out what I need for a project and go buy it rough sawn by the metre. So I might buy 40 metres (say 130 feet) of rough sawn 10" x 2" (the timber yard would describe it as 250 x 50 mm) and pay for it by the linear metre — in this case 40 metres — not the cubic dimension — in this case 0.5 cu.m.
I know officially timber is sold by the cube, but I rarely if ever need a cubic metre for my projects.
ian
Lie Nielsen has some mortise chisels in the works:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1291
I'd be reluctant to post an inquiry on these chisels, you might end up sorting through a couple hundred responses... :)
I have a set of the LN chisels and have to say that I'm really enjoying them. I don't think they are substantially better than anything else in the same class, but like everything else LN is making they are high quality and a pleasure to use.
I recently got one of the new Ray Isles mortise chisels. Previously I had used Hirsch and Two Cherries. I like the Ray Isles chisel so well - both the quality and the thinking behind the design features - that I would tell anyone to think about buying one of those and checking it out. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Which type of chisel did you end up with? I ordered a set of Hirsch and upon arrival was disappointed to find cracked & chipped handles and a poor finishing of the handles. So I ordered a set of Sorby which arrived today. Now, they look very nice but after reading this thread I wonder about the quality of the blade. I can recitify some of the Hirsch handle problems if need be. So I am in a quandry as to which set to keep. Any ideas or thoughts?
Thanks,
dlb
.
I decided to wait until either the Lie-Neilsen mortise chisels come out or the Illes 3/8" is back in stock.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I too was hoping to find out about good mortising chisels, oh well..............
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Use whatever tool needed to Git 'r Done!
Hi, Chris ...
I've acquired the German MHG nortising chisels (see Hartville Tool at http://www.hartvilletool.com/ ) They hold their edges well, and their large handles are a nice fit, at least for my hand. I've worked a couple of them really hard with no ill effects whatsoever. Incredibly, their flat undersides are nearly perfect - I measured an out-of-flat variance of less than 0.0005" right out of the box, and their grind is reasonably fine, which made them quick and easy to fettle ("scary sharp" method to flatten then mirror polish on the critical surfaces.)
I was surprised (and disappointed) to find them with only a 25 degree sharpening angle, but they've held up well in both oak and maple. I anticipate gradually getting them to a more likely 35 degrees as sharpenings come to pass, but am at this point in no great hurry - they're good stuff. I'd not hesitate to order other MHG types. They have a nice line of English-sized blades.
Hope that's useful ...
---John
If they work fine now, why are you going to change the bevel angle?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Exactly. Guess my wording was just a bit fuzzy. That "in no hurry" comment was meant to convey that point - if they seem to be tough enough to stand up at a 25 degree angle, why fuss with them?However ...
I grew up grinding and honing chisels freehand. When I became a scary sharp convert, I became more aware of actual grind angle, and discovered that my eyeballed grinds were fairly consistent at about 35 degrees. Over the years, I'd had no problems with turned edges, etc. I did discover that paring chisels require noticeably less effort at a much more shallow grind angle. One thing led to another, and I'd pretty much come to a plan of: paring - 15/20 deg; beveled bench - 25 deg; firmer - 30 deg; and all with an added 5 deg secondary honing angle; plus mortising at 35/40 degrees.Hopefully, that graduated approach would sufficiently recognize the added rigors imposed on each type, yet minimize working effort for a tired old guy (that's me.) I didn't hit any knots while working with those MHGs, but I used a dead blow mallet to work them especially hard, and was honestly amazed that they held up so well. They've not yet seen knots or ash, birch, and other touhger woods, so the jury's still out. If I remain skeptical even in the face of success, I'll just begin to hone at a steeper angle and arrive there over the full blade thickness some years down the road.---John
Edited 2/14/2006 12:55 pm ET by PJohn
"I did discover that paring chisels require noticeably less effort at a much more shallow grind angle." OTOH, paring chisels are usually cutting along the direction of the fibers, not through as in chopping dovetails, so they should cut easily. Morticing cuts through and I think 25 degrees should cut with less effort than 35 degrees.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yabbut... By way of contrast, trimming a proud dowel after offcutting, for example, is most easily accomplished with the lesser bevel of a paring chisel or a skew at similar bevel. Other examples aside, I agree that most paring work is parallel to grain, or nearly so.You're right - a 25-deg chisel will cut with less energy input, whether cross-grain or not. However, if you're busy digging a deep hole in hard material, the steeper angle of a 35 deg will offer more steel to bolster against deformation. Ditto if you're a fast excavator - that is, the harder the strike, the more stress on the steel. I remain curious as to what's going to happen when I strike a knot or the like. A part of the long-term evaluation is to keep track of sharpening frequency, too. Too-short intervals may indicate early erosion of a marginally supported edge, and may therefore suggest a steeper bevel - assuming that questionable metallurgy is not fouling the results. Keeping the danged thing off the floor can help, too ... har.All of this theorizing aside, it's difficult to damage a high-grade tool unless you're really abusing it. I do find the discussions to be worthwhile from the standpoint of sharing thoughts with the aim of spending less time sharpening and more time butcherin' wood. Sometimes an accurate theoretical approach will indeed help a bit in the real world, and lots of bits can add up to something noticeable.
Take a look at these, barrtools.com,.......I wish I had a set of these. I currently own the older style Marples registered mortising chisels for my better more unusual work don't get to use them often but they are nice
Useful equipment of climbing
Typically, you need a draw for every bolt on a route, two for the anchors, and an additional two or three in case you need more in a tricky situation. On average, 12 to 16 draws will be enough for many sport crags. However it is important to look at the areas that you will usually climb at and determine how many you need to bring along.
Sport routes have a fixed line of bolts drilled into the rock to protect the route and a set of fixed anchors at the top, so sport climbers just need a rack of quickdraws ¡ªtwo non-locking carabiners connected by a sewn sling¡ª to protect a route. Quickdraws typically come in two lengths; a short version that is 10 to 12 cm long and a long version between 15 and 18 cm long. Shorter draws are lighter and less bulky on your harness and are good for straight forward routes, while longer draws reduce rope drag and are great for meandering routes or overhung cliffs. A set of draws made up of a mixture of the two lengths gives you the option to use long or short draws depending on the character of a route.
Petzl Spirit Express Quickdraws are a super lightweight, with a wide dogbone for easy handling and a rubber piece on the rope end so that the carabiner stays in place when clipping the rope. The Spirit Express draws come in 12 or 17 cm lengths.
Useful equipment of climbing
Typically, you need a draw for every bolt on a route, two for the anchors, and an additional two or three in case you need more in a tricky situation. On average, 12 to 16 draws will be enough for many sport crags. However it is important to look at the areas that you will usually climb at and determine how many you need to bring along.
Sport routes have a fixed line of bolts drilled into the rock to protect the route and a set of fixed anchors at the top, so sport climbers just need a rack of quickdraws ¡ªtwo non-locking carabiners connected by a sewn sling¡ª to protect a route. Quickdraws typically come in two lengths; a short version that is 10 to 12 cm long and a long version between 15 and 18 cm long. Shorter draws are lighter and less bulky on your harness and are good for straight forward routes, while longer draws reduce rope drag and are great for meandering routes or overhung cliffs. A set of draws made up of a mixture of the two lengths gives you the option to use long or short draws depending on the character of a route.
Petzl Spirit Express Quickdraws are a super lightweight, with a wide dogbone for easy handling and a rubber piece on the rope end so that the carabiner stays in place when clipping the rope. The Spirit Express draws come in 12 or 17 cm lengths.
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