I’m wanting to build 2 – 3/0 -6/8 doors for a log cabin.the choice of lumber is poplar. These doors will have a worn, rustic, plain look. similar to a craftsman style. I would like to mortise tenon the frame. the rails and stiles are 1-3/4″ thick x5 1/2″ wide. I have a mortise machine but cannot locate a bit long enough to penetrate the full depth of 5 1/2′ any suggestions would be appreciated. rusty
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Replies
Why not blind mortise?
If you must mortise through, make a very careful setup & bore from both sides. Then there is chiseling by hand instead: going in from both sides is still a good idea. LOL!!
Cadiddlehopper
When I've done this, I've had better success using a router instead of the mortiser. Because of the depth of the mortises, you will need to go at them from two sides. I find it's easier to keep them lined up with a router & jig than the mortiser. (I find the mortise bit tends to drift a lot in this type of application.) I usually take 4 or 5 passes with the router to go full depth from each side, using a spiral up-cut bit. Even with mortises the full depth of the bit from both sides, there's usually some stock left in the center of the style. I clean this out with a mortise chisel (it doesn't have to be pretty since its burried out of site -- just lined up) and square up the corners at the same time.
Another option, and the one used by most modern doormakers, is to simply not use through mortises, but go only as deep as your router bit or mortise chisel will go. You can even use floating tennons. With modern glues, this joint will be plenty strong.
BTW, you seem to indicate your rails and styles are all the same dimension. You might want to use wider stock for the bottom rail, a bit narrower for the mid rail (but wide enough to fit the lockset of your choosing) and a narrower rail at the top as well. The extra width at the bottom helps keep the door square since it allows for a larger mortise and tennon with more glue area.
Either way, don't forget to allow for your sticking when laying out the door.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks for the insight, by the way what do you mean by sticking. I'm now on the idea of still mortising but in a different way, I thought I would cut the tenons on the stiles by the use of a router and cut the mortise on the rails using the table saw and a jig to hold them square and still. what are your thoughts on that.
Rusty
Bugsy:
Sticking is the moulding that holds the panels in. It can either be run in place on the rails and styles or applied after the rails and styles are assembled as separate pieces, like a picture frame. If run in place, you need to either reverse-mould the rail tennons, like you would do with a cabinet rail and style bit set or, traditionally, remove the sticking from the portion of the style that meets the rail and create a miter at the corner where rail and style sticking meet. This effectively reduces the width of the style at that point & the finish depth of the mortise by the width of the sticking profile. It also means your rail must be that much longer to make up for it. You will be pretty limited if you want to make the cabinet-style joint with a router. Matching bits for passage doors are tough to find (tho' I know someone makes 'em -- maybe Freud?) These joints are usually made on a shaper for passage doors. If you plan on using run in place moulding, you need to take this into account when planning where to put your M&T joint and sizing it. This also affects cutting the grooves for the panels. Unless you do a stopped groove, you will need to deal with it at the top and bottom of each joint. I usually haunch the tennons there to fill it in. It's usually best to cut your mortises before running the moulding, otherwise, you're left without a good reference surface whether you use the mortiser or router.
Further tips: Leave your styles about 12" long, leaving an extra 6" on each end when tooling and clamping, then trimming it off at the very end. Makes it WAY easier to cut the joints and clamp the whole mess together. If you plan to peg the joints (you did mention A&C-style?), make a template and go from both sides as well to prevent blow-out. You can either use your mortiser to make these holes (a pain, since the pieces are so large) or use a regular drill and square up the holes by pounding a mortising bit through from each side after drilling.
Hope that helps. Have fun!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Bugsy:
Oops, I just re-read your post and realized I didn't fully answer your questions. You can't cut a true mortise on a TS. You end up with a bridle joint. Nice joint (I often use it for cabinet doors), but not as strong as a traditional M&T for passage doors. You can make tennons on the rails on the TS since they are probably not too long to put in the tennoning jig. (You may be limited by your depth of cut, though.) However, when I use power tools to make tennons this large, I usually use a router and a jig that looks like this viewed from the end:
====================== <--- plywood|||||| open ||||||| <--- stock as thick as the workpiece====================== <--- plywood
This is essentially a 4-sided box with two open ends that you slip over the workpiece and clamp. You then use the plywood as a guide to cut the shoulders. (Start your cuts at the end and work towards the guide so you don't lose your bearing surface for the router.) Rout both sides, adjusting the depth of cut so you are left with the desired thickness on your tennon. Takes about 5 minutes to cut a nice tennon this way. (Not as fun as using muscle powered tools though!)
I have seen doors made by making really deep grooves for the panels, say 1" or more deep, and using that groove as the mortise. Not super-strong, but with good glue, probably still strong enough to do the job and stronger than some production doors I've seen that are simply doweled. These doors are a lot faster to make, especially if you just leave the edges of the rails & styles unmoulded. If you use ply or MDF for the panels, you can glue them in as well for added strength & stability.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thank you all for the info, I think I'll go with the bridle tenon and using engineered plywood for the flat panels, I believe that would give more gluing area for the strength needed. Also, I am going to use square pins on the joints as an accent and for structural purposes. The stiles will 6". The top rail 6", center rail 6" and the bottom 8". These doors 1 3/0 for the front and 1 3/0 double hung (2 -18" doors with a t astrical) for the rear go on a log cabin I thought about cedar 1 1/2" thick for a rustic look or 1 3/4" poplar, What's your opinion on this.
Again thank you, Rusty
Exterior doors? I'd stay away from both cedar and poplar. Cedar is too soft and would get dinged pretty easily. Poplar is not very tolerant of wet conditions. I'd probably go with white oak.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thanks Mike, What about Red oak. I have a convenient supplier close by.
Rusty
Yeah. Me too. Unfortunately, red oak is not as weather-tolerant as white oak. In WO, the pores are filled with rot-resistant stuff (the technical details escape me). In RO, the pores are open and they tend to trap moisture, etc. Some species of pine will work well too.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"When I've done this, I've had better success using a router instead of the mortiser. Because of the depth of the mortises, you will need to go at them from two sides. I find it's easier to keep them lined up with a router & jig than the mortiser. (I find the mortise bit tends to drift a lot in this type of application.)"
Mike
Might I ask what type of mortiser set-up you have? I use a Multico MCD and drift just doesn't happen so long as your chisels are properly set-up and fitted into the machine. I have no qualms about doint 6in mortises this way.
"Another option, and the one used by most modern doormakers, is to simply not use through mortises, but go only as deep as your router bit or mortise chisel will go. You can even use floating tennons. With modern glues, this joint will be plenty strong."
Possibly, yes, but a traditional wedged (or "foxed") through tenon has better pull-out properties that a shorter stub tenon.
Scrit
Edited 11/4/2006 7:47 am by Scrit
You said it !
You have a Multico, so do I. A PM20
I don't think there is a better mortiser than that ! Even the little bench model is better than some floor models of other brands.C.
Edited 11/4/2006 5:04 pm ET by citrouille
Anyone know where to buy a Multico these days? Garret Wade doesn't carry them any longer.
Have you talked to Garrett Wade ? I am pretty sure they will order one for you if you are willing to wait.C.
I called Garret Wade and they gave me the number of the nearest distributor - which happens to be in France. No thanks. I am hoping that someone else will take over import of Multico into N. America.
There is one for sale used (the floor model) at craiglist.org The price seems not too bad to me.C.
Thanks for the link -price isn't bad.
Sparrow,
Try Felder. If you look at the picture you will see a Multico type MCD -the type where one can fit a house door under for doing the lock mortice.I am sure that Felder just get this from Multico and stick their sticker on it, with some switch changes a la "European regulations".
I suspect that Sedgewick do the same.But it is Multico ,mit Brooks motor made in Britain.All the chisel sets that came with it were marked either Multico or William Ridgeway. Outsourcing/onsourcing / buying outetc were nota new thing when I got that machine in Zimbabwe in 1993.
Scrit-confirm this be the very same machine you have, except the switch and plug will be differeent as they are 3 phase "European specs"?
Not a bad machine-light industrial- can do a one inch mortice in hardwood with ease (see the long handle). No fears of drifting if set up well.Good for house doors where you want to go all the way through and wedge-like they should be done.Philip Marcou
Hey Philip,thanks for the info on the badge-engineered felder/Multico. I didn't know about that, and I'll look a little further into it. Do you know if Felder still brings this machine into the US (just being a tad lazy about searching for this info myself :^))One comment I would make about floating tenons vs trad. tenons: while from a structural standpoint the floating tenon is pretty much as strong as the traditional version, glue bonding areas being equivalent, and undoubtedly simpler to process since only identical, usus. blind mortises need be cut. The drawback to the floating tenon relates to my way of thinking to ultimate durability: 75-100 years of moisture cycling, admittedly less of a concern in a modern house, will tend to cause a lot of glue joints to fail. With a floating tenon, you are genereally relying upon glue for structural integrity (though, yes, some people do longer floating tenons and pin them). For the reson of durability, my nod would go toward the traditional connectionm, though I still make use once in a while of floating tenon joinery in my work, though primarily in timber joinery, in the form of splines.
Philip, okay, a little less lazy I suppose: I went on Felder's website, but today they only sell slot mortisers and the like. When did they bring in a hollow chisel mortiser?
Sparrow, I got that machine in 1993 when I lived in Zimbabwe, via an import agent.Philip Marcou
Thanks Philip. I guess I'll have to look at going to Zimbabwe eh? No.Maybe the odd one will turn up on the secondhand market.
Hi Philip
Yes, that's the same machine that I use. There are no less than three Multicos which can perform this little party trick (with appropriate accessories) - ther PM20, PM22 and the MCD. And the Feder is indeed a badged Multico.
"I suspect that Sedgewick do the same."
Sell to Felder or rebadge a Multico? The Sedgwick 571 mortiser is a very much older design and much nearer to the old Multico M or K series mortisers (or for that matter the industrial Wadkin DM) - although they in turn were derived (indirectly) from the hand-mortiser conversions of the 1920s......
Scrit
Might I ask what type of mortiser set-up you have?
Yup. I have a Fisch benchtop. Don't get me started on this one. This is about the worst piece of sh. . . , er, shop tool, I've ever bought. Really poor fit (the chuck key doesn't even fit properly), bad design of the fence and hold downs, etc., etc., etc. (I use good chisels though, and keep 'em sharp.) This setup will work pretty well with softwoods, but with oak -- fuggetaboutit. Now, if you have a real mortiser, with a good fence and moving table, that's a whole 'nuther ballgame!
a traditional wedged (or "foxed") through tenon has better pull-out properties that a shorter stub tenon
No doubt that a through tenon (wedged or not) will be a stronger joint. My point was that, depending on the door design, weight, etc, given the glues that are available today, you may be able to get by without a through tenon. As for a fox wedged tenon, that's not a through tenon. Also called a "blind wedged tenon", this joint is made by flaring the mortise, slotting the tenon and inserting wedges loosely in the tenon before assembly. Driving the tenon into the mortise drives the wedges home and makes the joint extremly difficult to pull apart. This would also increase the joint strength.
As is almost always the case, there's a large selection of ways to solve this problem.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
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