Gasp…..
I have almost completed all the parts for seven high end dining chairs. (Number eight was finished first as the prototype).
I had to cut mortise and tenon joints as follows:
One chair = 16 mortise and tenon joints
Seven chairs = 112 mortise and tenon joints
112 mortises cut with a ShopFox bench mortising machine using 3/8 chisel, some went into a difficult shape on the rear chair legs.
112 tenons, means 8 cuts each on the table saw = 896 table saw cuts. For the vertical cuts, I uses a cast iron ShopFox tenon jig.
Everything came out well and the tools worked fine, but man what a lot of work!
Is there a quicker way to do this, and should I invest in a Leigh mortise and tenon jig if I plan to do this again?
Will appreciate the opinions of those who have done many mortise and tenon joints before.
Willie J Martins
CA Central Valley
Replies
I use a homemade multi router for almost all my mortising. I find it to be far superior in speed as well as quality when compared to hollow chisel mortising. A slot mortiser or the JDS multi router are the ay to go IMHO.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
I ordered the G0540 and have it in and running. Seems to be a fair machine for the money. There was a little problem getting the bottom bolts in that hold the table, but some grinding and all is in order. I made several test cuts. First was with a drill bit. Made good holes but was not good at slot mortising. So changed to a spiral up-cut router bit and this is the ticket. Did several mortises and then some tenons. Mortises are fine, very easy and fast. Tenons do just great also…but don’t back up. LOL After installing another router bit, I was back in action. I think this will be a big help in my shop. The frame and stand is very solid. Cast iron table and ΒΌ steel legs and supports. I did order the aluminum end cut bits. I think the HS will be better for this machine.
My Grizzly G0540 arrived yesterday and assembly went smoothly with no misalignments. Appears to be a very substantial machine. When I turned it on, the chuck worked loose and came off. A call to Grizzly confirmed it was just a pressure fit so after a good cleaning of the shaft and inside of the chuck, I tapped it back on, chucked up an end mill, and did some practice pieces. Works like a charm so far. Art
Your experience with the chuck coming off, and your description of the mounting, would seem to confirm my earlier speculation that the chucks are mounted on a Jacob's taper. This would explain why Grizzly is calling the machine a boring machine and warning against using the machine for mortising.
Jacob's tapers can loosen under the side loading created by mortising. This doesn't mean you can't mortise with the machine, but you may have problems with the chuck coming loose occasionally.
John W.
A few drops of Loctite "red" threadlocker 262 will keep that chuck on. A bit of propane heat will break the bond if need be. I've been talikng to a few more folks that are using it as a mortiser as well. Everyone seems impressed with the quality so far and all have done some tweaking.
Thanks, if it comes loose again thats what I'll do. Art
Gee ...
My wife wants me to make 24 chairs for my kids. Maybe I should rethink the effort.
If you have 24 kids, you probably don't have time to make the chairs!!!
LOL
Dan
Now imagine cutting all those M&T joints using a brace/bit and a mortising chisel!!! Those old timers must have been wirey!!"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Slot mortiser and loose tenons is the faster more accurate to do it. Grizzly G0540 is advertised as a boring machine but it has the side travel of a slot mortiser so I think the sales guys dropped the ball. Also the Laguna/Robland slot mortiser is nice and affordable. Basically it's the slot mortiser from a combo machine set up with a router but it could be set up with a motor which is a lot quieter than a router, plus it comes with the special chuck. Commercial slot mortisers run at around 3,500 rpm.
OK, have to admit my incompetence here.....
Looked at the grizzly machine which is basically a horizontal boring machine, with a moving table.
So, I think I can figure out how to cut the mortise, but at 3450 RPM, what kind of cutting tool do I use? Then, I have a mortice with round corners, so how do I now cut the tenons to match?
Any Idea what the JDS multi router sells for?
Willie
If the JDS MultiRouter is the one David Marks uses on Woodworks, the price is $2,595 plus freight. At that point I didn't explore what options were required or what came with it. (And the grizzly boring machine seems downright cheap).
Keep in mind that building chairs requires practically every mortise to be at a different compound angle(s), so the Leigh jig looks interesting (and even cheap compared to the MultiRouter). I hope someone who has the Leigh CMT jig jumps into this discussion.
I think mortise and tenon would be better for chairs than double mortise and floating tenon. Floating tenons seem great on doors and tables, but don't seem appropriate for chairs, because many of the pieces are only slightly larger than then tenon(which means that the wall holding the floating tenon would be pretty thin). But I would love to hear from people with experience using floating tenons on chairs.
________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Good experience in this forum and appreciate all the input.
Looking at some of the ideas, specially the JDS machine I'm starting to wonder if the Grizzly G9959 wood mill at $1795, is perhaps a good investment?
Willie
I can pick up a used Bridgeport for around $500. The Grizzly G0540 will run cricles around the G9959 when it comes to mortising. The horizontal head is the key. I've had stiles on custom sliding screen doors that were 11 feet long. Perfect on the horizontal slot mortiser. Especially at $330 delivered
The Grizzley G0540 looks like a good deal, has anyone had any experience with it? Art
I talked to Grizzly about it at the beginning of the year. It was due out in April plus most folks don't have a clue what it is. For $330 I'd just buy the thing if I didn't aleady have access to several mortisers. You can always return it.
You make mortises in your rails and stiles and use loose tenons. A technique pioneered in Europe and not well known in the world of hobby woodworking but all the pro shops I know use the technique. We use HSS 2 flute aluminum cutting endmills. Pic shows a Bini commercial slot mortiser.
What kind of $$ to buy these two machines?
I posted the Bini so folks would know what the commercial standard is. It runs about $3,500. The one I showed has the tilting table.
Handmills are an outdated type of milling machine that you can often pick up for scrap metal prices. Takes a bit of searching to find one that takes collets as most take a totally different kind of cutter. Can still be converted but the collet type is a few hundred less to convert. Depends on your connection to a local machinist.
Entry level is the one in FWW #141
Next level is the Grizzly 0540
Third would be the Laguna Robland... mortiser from the combo machine.
Fourth would be the Rojek
http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/slot_mortisers.php
When you start out in woodworking, it's pretty hard to spend much more than $2000 for a single tool. After you accumulate all that stuff, then you start lusting after the tools that are 2-3 times that amount, or more.
I would bet that you have your eye on a CNC machine right now......
Thanks for the info.
I have never used one of the router jigs for M&T, but I have tried every other method I know about. I think that when you have that many to do a tennon jig and mortiser are the way to go. Even though there were a lot of cuts you should have been able to do them very fast (after the set up). I would like a Leigh jig for short runs, like making two joints. But, can not justify the price. After I honed my mortise chisels with the same care given to my plane irons they cut very nice. Though not as smooth as a slot mortiser.
Mike
Jelly,
Yeah, chairs have a LOT of joints, don't they? When I got a commission to build a set of 32 shieldback chairs, I bought the joint machine by Vega. Then I bought a router so I could dedicate the motor to the machine, but I figure it paid for itself in saved time just on that job. Can't speak to the Leigh machine, but I'm satisfied with mine.
Regards,
Ray
Did a search for a Vega joint machine and got everything from the Russion Defence Business industry, to homeopathic diagnostic machines, but no woodwork?
And I'm not the one with the 24 kids.........
Can you tell me where to find more information?
Willie
The Vega joint machine was discontinued years ago. Too far ahead of it's time apparently. FWW #141 had a nice simple home made slot mortiser that was slick.
Edited 6/15/2004 5:27 am ET by rick3ddd
Jellyrug,
Sorry for the late reply to your question, my link to the virtual world has been down. My information for the machine is:
Vega Enterprises Inc.
R.R.#3
Decatur Ill 62526
Ph: 217-963-2232 Fax: 217-963-2246
My literature for the machine is dated 12-93, so what's available is anyone's guess. Sure like my jointmaker though...
Regards,
Ray
http://www.vegawoodworking.com/
Interesting company and I remember seeing info on the jointmaker when it came out but you are one of the few to have one.
rick,
Well, my tastes ARE eclectic, I guess you'd say. Probably 'cause I'm left handed.
I confess I had my doubts about the durability of the machine. It's the height of simplicity, though. Some kind of nylon type bushings/slider bearings that I figured would wear out pretty quickly, but everything is still nice and snug. Movement/adjustment in XYZ axes, the table tilts, the fence swings, (compound angles) Do I sound like an infomercial? It slices, it dices,...I've used it to cut round (dowel-like) self tenons on the ends of chair rounds and handles (for ferrules). The only thing I haven't tried is the threaded advancing adjustment for cutting box joints.
Regards,
Ray
I knew I had a brochure on the Vega Jointmaker...
rick,
Yup, that's it.
Regards,
Ray
When I started to do a lot of mortising, I got rid of the bench top model and bought that Powermatic floor standing unit (I think it was about $700 at a show). Jet has an identical twin to the model I bought.
This thing has a strong clamping device to hold your work piece to the fence/table, but best of all, the table is on an X-Y axis. The first wheel adjusts the front/back movement of the table, and the second wheel moves the table side to side (maybe about 15"). Thus, if you are doing multiple mortises on a single work piece, you start at one end and just work your way to the other -- without having to unclamp and reclamp the piece for every plunge.
With a chair, you can generally do the bottom stretcher and the seat stretcher without unclamping the piece -- just keep moving the table with the adjustment wheel.
I like this arrangement a lot, but I have no idea if some sort of router based set-up might be even faster and more convenient.
Yep,
I actually looked at this machine today ($750) and will probably make a future investment, or perhaps even a bit bigger.
Some questions:
How does your machine handle a 3/4" hollow chisel, is the ram powerful enough?
The handles on the X and Y axes, are they dimension indexed, for instance in your example where you cut more than one mortice on the piece while clamped, can you mark only the first piece and then work on the indexed dimesions?
On my bench top, (Shopfox) a 3/4 inch chisel, good for doing joints on table legs is too much for the machine to handle. I normally do a test piece first, until I get all the dimensions perfect and then I use stops, so I can repeat exactly. On shaped chair legs, this is a lot of work, as you have to make up templates. I always keep my mortises straight, and put the angles in my tenons.
Willie
Re: the Powermatic mortiser
1) I have done the majority of my work here in white oak with 1/2" chisels. There, it works like a hot knife through butter -- as long as the chisel is reasonably sharp.
I have only used the 3/4" chisel a few times with this type of dense wood, and it does labor a bit more. I know I will probably get nailed to the wall for telling you this, but I used the old plumber's trick of slipping a "cheater" pipe over the handle for more leverage. Then it worked fine. On softer, less dense woods, the 3/4" chisel works ok (without the "cheater").
2) Neither axis is indexed. They provide a stop rod for the side to side axis, which I never use, since it defeats the purpose of having maximum sliding capability (for multiple mortises). So I mark everything, and cut to the line.
3) I do mine the same way -- mortises straight 90, angled tenons. However, the table cannot be tilted, so you would still have to make up a jig to hold a leg that will not lay flat on the table. I dodge this problem because the chairs I have made have a straight angle (no curves). Here, I have been able to do the mortises for the back leg on one side of the table, and then turn the piece end for end to do the lower (seat and bottom stretchers) on the other end of the table.
Overall, if you like this kind of set up, but intend to do a considerable amount of work with your 3/4" chisel, I think I would agree you should go to a larger machine that has more muscle to it. This one is adequate for a few 3/4" ers, but it would be a PIA to have to do a ton of them.
Here's an example of a converted handmill for doing slot mortises using endmills. Also can be used as a boring machine for dowels. Very accurate and fast to set up.
Edited 6/15/2004 5:33 am ET by rick3ddd
Tenons in picture, router cut in a few seconds with simple work holder.
Mortices routed just as fast. In my view, for excavations to ~2" and tenons to
~2-3/8" the router is a viable option.
Routers
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled