Hey there,
I’ve been making my mortises with a router, or with a drill and chisel, or both ways, and I’m thinking it might be time to just buy a mortiser. General inter makes a good one according to FWW.
But then I looked at slot mortisers. Good ones are pricy I’m sure. As with anything else I’m sure the cutter makes a world of difference. I watched the slot mortising attachment on the Rojek combo machine. It turned nice and slow and made a great mortise using an appropriate cutter (of course no manufacturer will show a bad demo of their machine), I don’t know what the RPM was but it was way slower than a router. I don’t have (nor want) the combo machine, just wanted to see a slot mortiser in action.
So, the question I’m asking is: Given the choice between a square chisel mortiser (General) and a good slot mortiser, which would you choose? why?
Thanks
Dan
Replies
Dan,
That's kind of a loaded question. A slot mortiser will cost a lot more money. Will it really be worth it to you? I think that they also cut round edged holes, as it uses like a drill bit.
I have a combo machine and I went out and got a square chisel mortiser. I bought the Powermatic 701 when it came out last year. FWW didn't even have it in their review, as their review was over a year ago. But it was ranked above all the others a couple of months ago by another woodworking magazine.
I have also seen routers mounted on their side and a movable table put up to them to do slot mortising. But again, I think that a straight machine is the cheapest route to go. Like I said, are you going into production? Or is this a hobby? Maybe someone else knows of a cheaper horizontal option, but then you'll need rounded tennons.
Rod
Typically a slot mortiser runs about 3,500 to 5,000 rpm and was designed to use loose tenons. The fastest and most accurate way to do the mortise and tenon. I've used chisel, chain and Maka mortisers in commercial settings over 35 years and the slot mortiser is truly one of the best kept secrets in WW. All the shops in my area have them.The Rojeck is medium priced. The Grizzly G0540 is under $400 and there is a nice review at http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/reviews/articles_729.shtml
I have used pretty much all the commercial models and seen all the articles over the years. FWW #141 has the best homemade slot mortiser you can build for cheap. Another option is the mortiser from a combo machine can be mounted on a stand with a seperate motor or router. The lower rpm makes for a nice horizontal drill.
Thanks for the quick replies!
RodWolfy, naw, I'm not going into production but I'm a pretty serious hobbiest.
RickL, I checked out that Grizzly. Good price. But it's only got one speed. Couldn't that be problematic for either hard or soft woods? Or does the cutter make up for it? Which brings me to my next question, where do you get that special bit? Is it a special bit, or will a spiral bit be just fine?
I saw this one
http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/45540.html
I like the length (4 3/8"). It's one of the reasons I want to get a dedicated machine, for deeper (or through) mortises without the need to flip the stock over. But I guess I gotta call the company to find out min & max RPMs for it.
Frosty, again, the depth of cut is one of the reasons I'm checkin out these tools.
Thanks
Dan
The one speed is fine for all woods. When I said the range of speeds is 3,500 to 5,000 is pretty much a general observation of the machines I've seen over the years. Typically it's a single speed. Lower is better for drilling. Sometimes it's easier to just use dowels and having a horizontal drill is handy.
We typically use high speed steel 2 flute spiral endmills designed for aluminum. Fairly inexpensive and easily sharpened by most sharpening companies.
Check out the quality of mortise from a dedicated mortiser vs what you get from your router. I ran a comparison a while ago while at a school. The best quality mortise came from a plunge router. Granted, the set up may be a little more difficult for a router but with a good, but simple, jig to locate the cuts the pkunge router is the best. IMHO, I'd stick with the router.
Frosty
Have remanded the setup and skill functions of morticing to this sample jig.
A fun tool, you run the router willy-nilly and whence all the stops are contacted, the mortice suddenly appears.
Morticing can be fun.
Not a bad set up but have you seen the one that guy built in FWW #141??? That's about the slickest one for the money.
That's a nice jig!
Dan,
I have currently have a slot mortiser and after purchase, sold my benchtop hollow chisel mortiser (HCM). Each has its pros and cons but I prefer the slot mortiser. Unfortunately, it is much more expensive than a HCM. Depending on the brand, you could be in the price range of $3K or more for a slot mortiser. The slot mortiser is much faster than a HCM at cutting mortises and provides the ability to use floating tenons on just about every orientation of the workpiece. The HCM doesn't always permit this. The HCM is a lot more finicky to set up and requires a lot more force to be applied by the user. The mortises and bottoms are cleaner for the slot mortiser. If you use integral tenons, using the slot mortiser will require you to either square up the mortise or round over the tenon. I choose to round over the tenon and this is a quick operation with a piece of coarse sandpaper and cleanup of the tenon around the shoulder with a hand chisel. This is about a 20-30 second operation per tenon for me.
For slot mortise bits, I mostly use metalworking endmills which are very inexpensive and are throwaway items when they get dull. If I have to make very deep mortises, I use a spiral slot mortise bit. The HCM chisels and bits do require sharpening and often it is very difficult to determine up front which ones are the best quality.
That all said, the slot mortiser is IMO a better choice than a HCM performance wise but it may not be cost justifiable for all users. If I was in the market today and really wanted a slot mortiser but couldn't justify the outlay, I would probably wait until Spring 2007 and get the Festool Domino.
Steve
I wonder if routerman happens to be Pat Warner -- as in the selling of said jig.
Alan - planesaw
Well, if you were to check the URL's of the links in routerman's messages, you would find that they lead to patwarner.com. I don't think Pat is trying to hide anything here. As the owner of two of his router bases, I think his products (and the information he provides) are top notch.
DickL --
I don't know Pat Warner. I am not challenging whether his products are good quality or not. I'll take your word that they are.
As I recall, using Knots to sell one's products is not considered kosher. If routerman is Pat Warner then the post would certainly appear to be a fairly straight forward advertisement for his products.
There are a number of business owners and manufacturers who partipate in Knots, and generally are greatly appreciated when they are here. But, in my experience, they participate as woodworkers, answer questions, etc., but generally not outright promoting their products.
Maybe I am over reacting, but your recommendation that Pat Warner products are good will go further with me than his. I expect him to do so. That is what anyone in business is going to do if they believe in their products. But, when you tell me they are good, assuming you are simply a customer and user of the product, I take that as a strong recommendation from someone who has nothing personal to gain by what you are recommending. That is what makes Knots so powerful.
My apologies for offending you,
Alan - planesaw
Don't be so hard on routerman (aka Pat Warner in this post, whom I have never heard of before).
He didn't show his jig to sell his jig, that's obvious. Nice of him to share with the rest of us (you!) what he thought of as a good answer to the question.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
PS: Please don't try to buy anything from me either!
Hal
On the one hand I certainly am not trying to be hard on him. I fully realize it is a challenge when someone who has a product to sell, gets on Knots, gets into a discussion about a problem that s/he has a product that will solve or address and not want to promote it. But I do think it makes a difference. And, to my understanding, that is one of the ground rules of Knots.
You said, "He didn't show his jig to sell his jig..." I disagree. That is why he is in business. It probably happens to be a business he enjoys, and one where he enjoys building jigs that solve problems. That is honorable and a good thing for those of us woodworkers who find such an item helpful. But, the fact that he is in business to sell his products means his purpose on Knots could be different than the majority of us Knotheads who are having a please help or show and tell discussion.
I am not supposed to list something on ebay and then post all the information about it on Knots. At that point I am using Knots for the wrong reason. If I have something to sell, they go in the classifieds. When you go to the classifieds you know the ground rules. People are trying to sell you something.
There have been a couple of fairly well-known business owners involved in Knots discussions the past couple of days and I would bet 98, maybe 99 percent of the people in the discussion had no idea who they were. They didn't advertise who they were, say they owned a business, say what they had to sell, or otherwise try to make a sale. That takes some self-control. They were there just like the rest of us.
Maybe the ground rules of Knots have changed. Maybe I am off my rocker. Obviously, I don't make the rules for Knots. But, if Knots becomes another advertising forum, people won't hang around. There has to be some neutral territory for people to say, help, I have a problem, or a question, or see my latest project, without having to wade through all the posts that are trying to sell something.
Just my thoughts. If I am wrong, tell me. I will appreciate it.
Alan - planesaw
I've been to his website and I thought his jigs were terrific. There are plenty of woodworkers who can benefit a lot from his stuff. I have never noticed a pushy approach to sell anything.I vote to leave him alone.There are very few purists in this biz but many with purist attitudes. And I generally don't like their attitudes.John
I vote to leave him alone, too. He is very generous with his photo's of his jigs. You can easily build your own just from the detail he provides, and that's sharing in my book! If I did build one of his jigs, I would'nt sell it later - that would be stealing from him, but he does give us a great insight into what top-notch router jigs look like.
Mike D
Alan,
I can appreciate you view. I can see how it could get out of control and this (Knots) could end up being nothing more than a marketing tool. Good point, and I agree with you.
But at the same time, in this particular instance, all he did was show his idea for everyone to see, and if they wanted, copy to use for themselves. There was no direction to buy it from him or even to let us know who he is at this time. I think what he did was okay, and maybe even honorable.
You should also know that I have not been a Knothead for all that long, so maybe I am overstepping my bounds by saying anything.
Everyone else, (This can include you as well, Alan)
There is a really amazing little router jig for doing what all of you want to do that is made by Leigh, the same company that makes the adjustable dovetail jigs. It does an amazingly accurate job of cutting both the mortise and the tenon, which in my mind is a much better joint than a loose tenon.
I know, you will all argue that the loose tenon is just as strong, but having only one part to glue rather than two is a better situation in reality, as opposed to academically.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal,
First, regardless of this thread, it is good to be able to "talk" calmly about issues. And, second, your woodworking skills are fantastic, based on what I saw on your website. Clearly looks like you have a lot to offer those of us non full time woodworkers in the way of wisdom and advice.
As you have seen, two others have joined in and told me they don't see a problem and I should back off. I fully understand that. And, yes, I agree, all he did was show an item that would help someone with a problem.
As an aside, my point, at this point, is not about Mr. Warner, but about the use of Knots, as I believe the ground rules use to state -- no pushing products for sale. Maybe this post should be my last on this thread as I think it has gone too far about Mr. Warner and is therefore unfair to him.
In my work (CEO of a mid to large size nonprofit) I have to work with my board of directors on avoiding conflict of interest issues routinely. Regardless of honest intent to be of service, regardless of purity of intentions, regardless of how helpful one is trying to be -- there are times that such simply is a conflict of interest.
I am in no way judging Mr. Warner's intent to be helpful. Period. I simply brought to the table that, based on my understanding of Knot's rules, one who has something to sell is not supposed to try to promote it on Knots. And, yes, if you sell an item and put it on Knots you are promoting it. You will benefit if the person buys it.
And, Hal, your telling us about the Leigh router jig is koshser (assuming you aren't the owner of Leigh). If I go out and buy it you don't personally benefit financially. You bring no financially based bias to the table.
Okay, this can end this thread. On my part anyway. Point was made and I have probably beaten it beyond recognition.
Hal, next time I am in your neck of the woods I would love to stop in a meet you. I was in Portland in June.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 11/5/2006 10:48 pm ET by Planesaw
Alan,
Give my a call before you come and you are welcome to stop by!
Hal
We have a Griggio slot mortiser in our shop and have used Paolini, Rojek, SCMI and other slot mortisers. While the endmills are pretty cheap I can still have them sharpened for around $5 at my local sharpener. I prefer the HSS spiral 2 flute endmills for cutting aluminum. I also use the mortiser for dowel drilling and even mill the occasional aluminum and brass on our slot mortiser.
Rick, is the spiral edge also being sharpened, or just the end?Philip Marcou
The end and edge get sharpened on an endmill, same as a router bit. It's certainly no issue as we are doing all the cuttting at the same time so all the mortises match in rails and stiles and loose tenons tweaked to fit. We make them in advance of course. We are talking in terms of thousandths of an inch.
Hey there,
Thanks to all for the replies.
Once again, roughly the equal arguments for either side. I'll just have to find a way to test 'em both and decide then, but it's always fun (and insightful) to read others' points of view.
Thanks
Dan
Soley regarding the benchtop mortiser (if that's the General of which you speak), you might want to throw the new Steel City in for consideration. Here's some info <click>
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
To add to FG's comment on the Steel City, they got rebates working and I believe the mortiser is $50.
Regards...
SARGE..
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