Mortiser – Delta, Shop Fox, Fisch?
forestgirl
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Looks like there have been some changes in the Delta and Fisch bench-top mortisers in the last couple of years. I’m trying to decide between either of those and the Shop Fox, which seems to be a decent and well-thought-out model. Anyone out there have experience with the newer models? Pros? Cons? Best chisels to buy to finish outfitting it?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Forestgirl,
Unfortunately I have experience with Shopfox. Bought one at a great price knowing I would need one on an upcoming project. It sat for a year before I used it. The first time I turned it on I could not turn it off fast enough. The squealing and screaming was ear-splitting. I knew how to set up the bit and the chisel properly, knew I had done it, but double checked. Everything was as it should be.
Long story short, the chisel burned some and I decided I couldn't stand to work with it. I posted and inquiry on Knots. Sarge said he had not had a problem with his SF at all. After a couple of posts back and forth, he said he asked his wife to come to the shop and listen to his SF as he has a bit of a hearing loss. When he saw his wife cringe he knew there was a problem. Sure enough, she confirmed the squealing.
He called SF and they said yes the made their bits oversized. But, he said he had made hundreds of cuts and was satisfied. I went out and bought another set of bits/chisels that were a much better grade. Not as much squealing, but still more than my mortising attachment on my drill press.
Longer story short (seems I said that before) I went out and bought a Powermatic -- and love it.
Wanna buy a hardly used SF -- cheap?? Only problem is I live east and I think you live west. I have also since heard that when Grizzly had its tent sale north of me that there were a lot of SF pieces of equipment there also (as you may know the same man owns both companies).
Alan - planesaw
Which Powermatic do you have? I think I have made my mind up to purchase the 719T.
I bough the 701, benchtop model. Paid $399. I looked and considered the General and PM mortisers. Since I am not a full time woodworker, and I don't regularly use a mortiser, I just couldn't justify spending more money on the larger models.
If Ed McMahon ever gets here with my check I'll step up to a larger model.
Alan - planesaw
Thanks Alan, for summarizing that torturous history so cleanly. Anyone out there have the Fisch? How 'bout the newer Delta?? I don't think I can spring for the $300++ mortisers.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have the Delta 14-651 and have been happy with it. I use the chisels and bits that came with it, LV sells a cone shaped sharpener that I used on them before the first use. As far as the Shop Fox, I probably sold in the neighborhood of forty of them and had only one complaint amongst all the positive feedback.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Thanks for the info! The Shop Fox is 3/4HP vs. 1/2HP for the Delta. I've always thought the design of the Shop Fox was a cut above, but that was before Delta re-designed their mortiser and relegated the old one to the Shopmaster line.
I'm interested in your take on the speed difference. Lots of people just have a knee-jerk reaction to the higher speed of the Shop Fox -- "It'll burn, it'll burn" but actually reports of that problem seem to be pretty scarce. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
PS: Do you have any insight on the Fisch??
Shoot, I was eyeing that $50-off deal at Amazon ($300 purchase) but the Shop Fox doesn't qualify. On the other hand, I'd love to give that business to the local Jet/Delta/Shop Fox guy over near Poulsbo. I'm forever going in there to buy a $5 this, or a $10 that. He'd faint if I spent $250, LOL.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/5/2006 12:56 am by forestgirl
No feedback concerning problems with the higher speed, a lot of reports that it seemed to do the mortise quicker. As to the hp difference, who knows what they really are given manufacturers tendency to overstate. Neither machines motor seems to be working very hard even with the largest chisel and bit.
I've never had an opportunity to use the Fisch.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
One last question.....is it safe to assume the angle of that cone sharpener will suit any chisel set (e.g., Shop Fox)?? I'm finishing up my LV order tomorrow. Thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I can't say for positive but I can't think of any reason they wouldn't. The inside of the chisel should be the same size regardless of brand.
They come as a pair, part# is 77J81.20
They were $7.50 when I bought mine.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Excluding the Fisch which I have never seen or used, you will probably be fine with whichever one you chose, FG. The bench models all lack table movement which is a big plus for the floor models. In general, the bench models all lack proper clamping and you have to come up with clever solutions in each case.
IMO, all the bench models have strengths and they certainly all have weaknesses. Perhaps the decisive blow might be swayed by the price margin as all benches are "daily drivers" and will get the job done once you get the feel and you learn to adjust to it's weaknesses.
Regards...
SARGE..
Hi, Sarge, yep -- all the benchtop models have their disadvantages. It's all I can justify at the moment, though. I seem to remember that the Shop Fox's hold-down was better (these are old tests though, prior to the current model Delta). It has a couple of user-friendly attributes not seen on the others.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, Sarge et al., I picked up the Shop Fox at a local dealer today. The price ($189) was too good to pass up, and I wanted to buy something for more than $15 from him. Didn't get so much as a "Thanks" after he loaded up the truck, so I might not be back, but I got a good deal on it!
Will set it up tomorrow and give it a spin, so to speak.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
That's a steal, FG. Make sure you read about the proper chisel and bit clearance as the bit is made slightly larger than the chisel width. From some research I've done recently, that may not just be the Shop Fox that falls into that category.
That double column is pretty stout and other than the chisel-bit grind issue, the machine is built well over-all. I threw away the table and cut one that I en-cased with mica and cut some slots to attach quik-grips. I also added a phenolic face to the fence.
If you are not punching out mortises everyday as in "Mission" style, etc., you should be satisfied and especially at that price. It's more to fiddle with than a floor production model as no sliding table, but much quicker than chiseled them out. You didn't pay much more than I would have with the purchase of 3 sizes of good mortise chisels.
Congratulations...
SARGE..
Hi, Sarge. I found a FWW article on how to set the bit/chisel. Would love to see pics of your modified set-up. You encased the table with mica?? The only mica I know of is the nasty stuff that folks ill-advisedly insulated their attics with decades ago. Tell me you mean something different, LOL!
Speaking of chisels, I think this mortiser came with one bit (1/2" probably). What's your recommendation for brand of mortising bits??
I definitely want to try my hand at some A&C stuff. If it gets to be an obsession, I'll find a good floor model mortiser, or a bigger bench-top maybe.
Can you measure the angle on the chisels? I'm wondering if the honing tool Lee Valley sells is the right angle for the Shop Fox bits. I've gotten 2 different opinions as to whether they are universal in angle. The hones are cheap, so I'll just order them. If they won't work, I know someone who can use them. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The mica is the stuff you put on counter-tops. I have no clue what they call it now. Was just Formica in my day, but understand they've changed the secret formula and as I stated; don't have a clue to what to call it currently and be correct. :>)
I'll try to get down tomorrow evening and get an angle when I get home as we EST folks are tired. I wouldn't go to a great expense on the chisels at this point. Shop Fox has a cheap China set that fits the machine. I believe Alan found the more expensive Hirsch wouldn't fit the SF, so be sure of what will before you purchase. Just get the cheapies sharp and you will be fine, IMO.
BTW.. dgreen might know the answer to what and what won't fit?
And leave the new baby in the crib "in the shop" to-night. ha.. ha...
Evening...
SARGE..
I think they just call it "laminate" don't they? I know what Formica is, LOL. "Mica" is nasty stuff though. Think lung cancer.
Yep, dgreen can probably help, if he has time. Busy guy, him. I would like to get some decent chisels for this machine, so I sure hope the SF isn't some weird size. These guys aren't a real friendly bunch, and they'll be PO'd if I decide to return the machine.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well FG, have you ever tried putting my angle gauge inside that little hole in a mortise chisel to get a read? ha.. ha... I didn't think about this last night, but it would require a very small machinist gauge of some nature.
If I were to guess, I would say 30* degrees. 25* would be fine for very soft wood and I prefer 32*- 35* for hard-wood on mortise chisels. So.. with the bit doing all hard work excavating instead of the chisel itself, the chisels job it too merely shear the outer perimeter square. IMO, about 30* sounds to be a good compromise for both soft and hard-woods. I'm sure other opinions might vary.
BTW.. for approximately $7.50 a bit, the cheapies perform fine. And if you do switch to another mortiser, be sure in advance that the Fisch chisels will work as I have not seen a high up-grade other than Fisch and the claim that the old Delta's were made Euro? Could be others, but they may have alluded me.
I just set up my Fox in a new location that was vacated by a chop saw, so the picture will not contain the front clamp made with a veneer clamp, but an alternative is included in the picture.
And.. if you don't know "mica" is formica... then you probably won't know that "mater" is tomato when you sit down at dinner! ha.. ha....
Regards...
"then you probably won't know that "mater" is tomato " 'Mater is my hero!!! You did see Cars the movie didn't you?? You absolutely must see it! It may be a kids' movie, but there is so much humor that's just for us 50-someodd-year-olds. I laughed and laughed. The tractor tipping was the best, but there's lots and lots more.
Lee Valley has a set of chisels. I won't know until I open things up whether they might fit the SF though. They're designated for the Delta drill press mortising attachment, so it might be iffy. Sales guy at DSC seems to think the Fisch will fit the SF. We'll see.
Your table looks great, I'll probably do something similar. A steel table would be nice -- could use the GripTite as a front clamp. The stock table is so small. Was the phenolic on the fence aimed toward reducing friction?
Well, gotta get out there and lug it into the shop, set it up, make some square holes! Thanks Sarge.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sarge and forestgirl,
Based only on what I have in my shop, prior to learning enough about mortisers and the length of their chisel/bit sets, I find there are two sizes. The chisels appear to be the same length, but the bit, that portion that sticks out of the top of the chisel, appear to be two sizes.
What I will call the short ones stick about 1 and 3/4 inch out of the top of the chisel. The "long" ones are about 2 and 3/4. The short ones fit only my Delta drill press mortising attachment. The Powermatic and the Shopfox require the longer ones.
I started out using the Delta drill press mortising attachment on my first mortising project. Everything was fine except I believed too much pressure was required on the drill press handle to cut into the cherry I was using. The attachment and the chisel/bit worked fine.
So, based on that assumption, that I did not want to use my drill press in such a way as to require that much pressure I decided to buy a benchtop mortiser. Found the Shopfox for around $200 and bought it. I installed the Shopfox chisel/bit and the screaming began. That story is in another thread from a couple months or so ago. But it was while I was trying to figure out the problem with the SF that I discovered the two different lengths. As I reported earlier, I then bought the Powermatic benchtop mortiser and it is quiet, smooth, and works like a charm.
Forestgirl, you may readily know this, but one important/critical thing to do is to polish all four sides of the chisel. The roughness of the way it comes will grab the wood and make it more difficult to cut into the wood. I used 3M micron paper on glass to smooth and polish.
Also, someone mentioned the sharpening cones from Lee Valley. They are inexpensive, about 8 bucks I believe, and, again, based on my now 4 sets of chisel/bits, I find the cones work in all of the chisels. There may be different angles, but not in the ones I have. I have a Jet set (long), a Fisch set (short), and a couple of other no name sets in addition to the SF (long). The cones appear to work in all of them. As you would know, the sharper that chisel is the better it cuts.
Alan - planesaw
Thanks for all the info, Alan. It'll be 10-14 days before I get the machine, unless I can get it delivered quickly via the Woodcraft web site. But I'll keep your info bookmarked.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Not that you were asking me...but. I just picked up the PM 719T and gave it a test drive. That is a tank, and smooth. Aside from almost killing myself getting it down to my basement by myself (it's 277 lbs.) it is a great machine. I contemplated going your route, but figured, I want to buy stuff once, and grow into it...not out of it. Not that that's right or wrong. Anyway, I bought the JET chisels that fit the machine (not sure if they are universal). At 17.50, they seem more than adequate, and are razor (I mean razor) sharp out of the box. I had to be extremely careful when mounting the chisel for fear of laceration. There are so many movements and features to this machine, that it will definately allow me to do whatever I could want to do.
Oh, you CREEP! ROFL!!! Yep, that there's a monster. Don't tempt me, please. I'll be juuuuussssst fine with the little GI benchtop machine. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You're lucky. I had to buy a set of those cone-shaped diamind sharpeners before I could use the Jet mortising chisels that I got.
I guess it must be a sourcing issue. The one's I got had that plastic goop covering the tips and were razor sharp. Hmm.
I think you should look at the Yorkcraft mortiser. It is adjustable in the x-y axis and has a decent holddown. Best of all I paid 229.00 plus shipping from Wilkie machinery.
Hi Jack. I wish they had more info, better pictures on their web site. Can you run me through a detailed description. I'm especially interested in the quality of the hold-downs, ease of bit changes, how the fence sets up and maintains it's accuracy when it's moved, that kind of stuff.
There's no info in your profile about location. How far did they have to ship it? What was the cost? That's always been the big complaint with YC stuff is the cost of shipping (especially the big tools), and I'm on the left coast. Yorkcraft has a good rep, so I'm interested in your input.
Thanks!!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/5/2006 11:21 pm by forestgirl
I will try to answer your questions. The holddown is parallel to the fence and is fairly substantial. The mortiser uses standard mortising chisels and bits. It comes with a 5/8" to 3/4" bushing. Bit setup is easy. All you do is move the bed (y axis) until the chisel is touching the fence and make sure the chisel is completely contacting the fence. It takes all of a minute to make sure the chisel is parallel to the fence. Moving the bed along the x axis allows you to cut mortises parallel to the fence. I've cut mortises in four legs of a nightstand and never had to make any adjustment in the y axis. Repeatability of multiple mortises in the same plane seems excellent to me. I am in New Jersey so the mortiser did not have to be shipped too far. The shipping charge was about 70.00. Overall I am very satisfied with this machine.
Thanks, Jack, for the additional details. I sure wish I could get a look at the Yorcraft. I have a feeling, though, that shipping to the Seattle area would be crazy-expensive. Wait! I just remembered. I think there might be a Wilke distributor, warehouse, somethin' over there somewhere. Sheesh, that took long enough. I'll let you know if I get a first-hand look.
PS: Our new Golden Retriever does great drool, and claims drool is better than snot! Want some??
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/6/2006 11:34 am by forestgirl
FG...
See Alan's post #41..
Thanks for the in-put Planesaw.
Regards...
SARGE..
I too have the Delta 14-651 and have generally been happy with it after about three years of occasional use. It does seem to jam more than it should - a problem I trace to the bits that came with it. I got the LV sharpening cones and did some filing on the inner "drill bits" to remove some rough edges and it helped a little with chip ejection. I am now thinking of ordering some higher quality bits as it still jams occasionally. Maybe it is just under powered. The only time it is noisy is when the bit gets too hot - good time for a break.
Chris
By jamming do you mean the chisel jams when coming back out of the hole or are chips jamming the inside passage of the chisel? I squirt the inside of my chisels and bit with PG2000 lube from Pro Gold which is slicker than dog snot.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I have had problems with the chips jamming inside the chisel. I will have to locate some of that slick dog snot and try it out. I tried some Boeshield once but it did not seem to help.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Chris
I will have to locate some of that slick dog snot and try it out
Where are you located? I have a couple of dogs who will swap snot for biscuits.
Could this be a clearance problem? I'd be interested to hear what other's have done for this problem. In the meantime, just for kicks, try some PAM cooking spray. Have you tried any of the spray they sell for keeping router bits cool and clean??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi dgreen, I sent you an email awhile ago, thinking I'd messed up on the model I bought. Just realized it was the difference between the Shop Fox model# and the Grizzly catalog#, which is what Amazon uses.
Still interested in the General info I queried about though. Bye!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I just want to add on to forestgirl's post- I'm interested in the same info but have also been considering the General model 75-050T.
I'd love to here the good and the bad of what you own
Dave
Just at week Woodcraft advertised the benchtop General with the x-y table for $399. It is IMHO, far superior to the other benchtop models.
Thanks, Doug, it's just out of my budget. That tilting head's intriguing though. If mortise and tenon get to be a major part of my work, I'll save up for a floor model.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG, I'll add my $.02 since that's about all I have left. Normie convinced me to get a Delta....can't remember the model number since I'm not at home. It's the higher end one with the cast iron table. For what it is I've been pleased with it. It would be nice to have better hold downs, but that seems to be a systemic problem in the class you're looking at. No lack in power other than how much HP my latissimus dorsi (shoulder muscle) has to pull down on the handle. The bit does tend to jam at times in white oak as I try to pull out of a cut. That's likely due to bit qualtiy. I'll upgrade some day..... Which leads me to comment on your question about the diamond honing cones being one size fits all. I just read somewhere recently (was it in the previous FWW issue on sharpening mortise bits?) that various models have a different angle on the bevel. You might look at your last few issues to see for sure. If you can't find it, it might have been in Popular Woodworking.
Bankrupt
Thanks, BRBN, especially the heads-up on the chisels. I'll see if I can find the article. I'll probably invest in a pretty good set of bits early on -- I'm using a portion of the piddly amount of money I got when I sold my business last month, LOL, to catch up on some small stuff (Kreg jig, for instance). The mortiser is the only power tool I'm splurging on.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
When I was looking for a mortiser I wound up buying a Grizzly horizontal boring machine. It's a much more versital machine. Set up is fast and using end mills, cutting the mortise is a snap. No chisels to sharpen. Art
I'm hankerin' after square holes. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If we were all the same it wouldn't be any fun, would it. Art
No kidding, LOL! Well, see my new thread on the General International Tilting Head Mortiser. Hubby called this afternoon to say that he was getting a big ol' check -- back pay of a sort we were not expecting. He almost laughed when I asked if I could spend $200 of it to add to my mortiser budget. What's coming in will cover building a new deck, putting in new floors, and appliances! Wow, I am so jazzed!!!
Now if I can just get him to settle in for 2 weeks in a row so we can get started on all these projects! He's not happy about this retirement thing, LOL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi forestgirl,
I bought the new Delta model about a year ago. I had a specific project in mind. I was building a new workbench and had some mortise and tenon joints on the tresstle base. I needed to the mortise to go though 3" maple.
The Delta performed very well and the chisel set that came with it was fine. The hold down mechanism works well. About half way through the shear pin at the lever pivot point let go. I was able to get a new one from the local Delta shop and was back in business. I think I was just tyring to go to fast. After that point I did go a little easier and let the chisel cool down once in a while. I have since used it on less demanding jobs using 4/4 mahogany and it cuts through very easy.
It would be great to have a big floor standing model and just blast through but without the floorspace of the budget the benchtop Delta does a very nice job.
Best,
John
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled