OK, I want to make a pair of paneled doors – I’ve done it before, mortising with a chisel – this time I’m considering a mortising machine – – I’ve done a search and found a couple of good threads and links, but I am struck by the lack of any clear winners, short of $1000 dollar+ machines – –
has any manufacturer improved the hold down mechanisms on a bench top model recently?
is a 1750RPM machine definately better than a 3450RPM, other things being equal?
the Jet model JBM-5 weighs 44 pounds and the Shop Fox W1671 weighs 90 pounds – where and why the difference? (they cost app. the same…)
most of the crying about the bench top models surround the ‘hold down’ mechanisms, with the addition of an aftermarket vise/sliding table, will a bench top machine come near a dedicated mortiser in performance? (I would be willing to do a fair amount of fiddling for the $700 price difference)
are hollow mortice chisels/bits interchangible amoung brands of machines? one article said flat out that the cheap assemblies were better….
any testimonials (particularly ones about how even a $200 bench top mortiser eased your life, won you awards, made you more attractive to women, and took care of the dog while you were on vacation) would be appreciated…
thanks…
Replies
David, for a couple of doors I would mortise with a router. I would make the tenons on a tablesaw or bandsaw.Long mortising bits are available if your mortices are 4" or less.You would have to start with a shorter bit of course. If you have a drill press you could drill overlapping holes with a forstner bit and clean up with router or by hand.
mike
Last week, I built a router mortising jig that was featured in Shop Notes some time ago (Issue 64, july 2002). I'm delighted with the result. It is a one afternoon project that saved me the purchase of a mortiser and some important shop space.
I either round the tenons with a rasp or square the mortises with a drill press mortising attachement. But don't buy that crap.... It is complicated to set up and use, and I can square an existing mortise in soft wood with it, but that is about all it can handle (Though I have to admit I did not give it very much perseverance, I disliked it the first time I used it and never really tried to make it work better).
Fred
ya, a couple of doors I could do...but...I've found myself avoiding M&T joinery because my inability to punch accurate square holes in the rails...I'd like to think if that operation were simplified, I'd use the technique more often -
edit to add: - - I've never been much of a router user (got a Sears that only sees occassional use) and a casual perusing suggest that I could easily drop more $ on a router and set-up than on a benchtop mortiser...
"there's enough for everyone"
Edited 12/5/2004 5:59 pm ET by David Doud
A sears router leads to misery...
for a cheap alternative since you've only got a coupla doors, buy or have a machine shop make a block of aluminum with a hole bored straight and a slot 3/4" by depth to fit over your door stile, and drill away...
"A sears router leads to misery..." ??? Sorry, but I can't agree with that one. - lol
On the occasion of my 30th birthday in 1975, my bride gave me a Sears "Commercial" grade router. When she bought it, she had no clue about tools and let the salesman talk her into the 'top of the line' model. I think it cost around $75.
I've used and abused it for almost 30 years now and still use it today. The only repairs it's needed have been a couple of cord replacements and a new switch last year. It's retired from heavy jobs in favor of my DeWalt plunge router but it's still my 'go-to' router for light work like round overs, etc.
If mine didn't burn up in the fire, I'da given ya a delta hollow chisel set up for a Drill press, servicable, but not for mass production. I'd really check that out before "going Norm" with a dedicated hollow chisel deal.
A few doors? Drill press. Forstner. chisel.
A lot of doors? A hollow chisel on DP.
A WHOLE lot of doors? A slot mortiser..like a router
Too much money in yer pocket? a bench top mortiser..
My 2 cents.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I own a general international mortiser. I do not like it and I tend to do things with just my marking gauge, chisel and mallet. The hold down is weak and the mortise always ends up being ragged enough that I have to cut down my tenon making for a sloppy fit with no mechanical strength. Having said this I will add that my neighbor told me to just use my router or do it by hand before I bought the machine. But buying a machine seemed like way too much fun at the time. Good luck.
I own a general international mortiser. I do not like it...
is it this model? http://www.utterguys.com/customer/product.php?productid=25574&cat=&page=1
I've read a couple of positive reviews of it - 7192.5 18701.6
it has a 6" stroke, which I like - others have 4" or a bit more...
and it runs 1750 rpm, which seems to be desirable...
kinda interesting, during the searches, I ran across some of Sarges first posts "I never dealt with computers till 6 days ago and it's whupping me bad!!!
GOOD LUCK..Sarge." as he talked about getting his deal on his SF 1671... "there's enough for everyone"
Yes that is the one. One of the biggest problems is that the front clamp screw actually tightens against the fence. Naturally you should not need to tighten this very much, as the hold down should be doing the work, but you need to be very carefull to not tighten it too much because you will push the fence back. This happens very easily.
I've had a Delta Mortising Machine (1750RPM) for about 7 yrs now and still use it, but to be honest, I think I get cleaner cuts mortising with a router and edge guide then squaring up the ends with chisels. After doing a lot of review reading, I ended up going for a slighly pricier set of English made chisels & bits (forget the brand, but think they may be an offshoot of Clifton) as well as the sharpening kit. Seems like no matter how well I sharpen them, the walls of the mortise are always much rougher than with the router. The bottoms of the mortises will always be rougher than with a router bit, regardless of who's bits or machine you're using tho that's not really a big concern.
I don't think I remember reviews of any of the MM's that were completely overjoyed with the hold-down mechanisms (unless you get into the bigger free standing machines). When I'm using mine, I end up using the holddown PLUS a QuickGrip clamp at either end of the MM table to clamp the workpiece down. The other thing that drove me nuts were that the Allen set screws for the bit collet, fence & depth stop adjustments just seemed too soft. Over time the sockets got rounded out and it was tough to get a bite on them with the Allen wrenches. I ended up ordering some metric wratcheting jig handles from Grizly and converted my machine into a tool-less adjustment version.
As time goes on, I find myself using the MM increasingly less - in favor of a router/edge-guide/spiral up-cut bit.
I've used a drill press w/ HCM adapter as well as Delta and Mulitco PM-10 benchtop HCM's. And yes it's all about the hold-down which is why at half the price I'd go with the Delta over the PM10. The PM 20 looks to have a much better hold down than the PM10 but for a few more bucks you're in the neighborhood of the Pomermatic 719A floor model.
The auger bits for drill press HC's are too long to use in a dedicated mortiser. I have the best luck with Fisch (the german ones) and oddly enough the Taiwan made Jets. I do a lot of Green and Green and Stickley inspired work with through mortises so horizonal mortising or router-based loose tenon joinery doesn't interest me. I use the drill press for square pegs and small runs, otherwise I borrow one of the 2 other HCM's I mentioned. When the right commission comes along I'll be getting the PM719.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Are the doors regular cabinet doors or entry doors?
I used a Delta benchtop and found ot okay for cleaning up the ends of routed mortises. I wouldn't buy one unless I had a lot of work to do. I would take the time to make a jig or set op the router table with some good stops.
That said, we just got a Powermatic 719A...
Changed my whole take on HCMs.I wouldn't cut mortises any other way in a production setup. But at home it's routers, unless Santa's thinks I've been good this year.
thanks to all for the feedback - - I must say I am surprised at the tepid reviews for (benchtop) power mortisers -
I've used a DP adaptation on a job a couple years back to make 2 small doors (and to mortise some 4X5" oak beams - 28293.1 if anyone is really interested) - underwhelming performance, tho a lot of the problems surrounded securing the material; sound familiar?
I finally got a drill press a few weeks ago (just a used chinese unit - local and cheap) think I'll chuck up a forstner bit, put the rail in a vise, clean up the area with a chisel, and knock out these doors -
sounds like I better wait for santa to bring me a PM 719...won't be happening this year...
"there's enough for everyone"
I'd have to say that the weak link in a bench top HCM is the hold down.
A month or so back I was flipping through a competing WWing magazine. It had an article about tweaking a cross slide vise for use with an HCM. The HCM's original base was taken off and then the rest of it was bolted to a plywood torsion box stand. The stand was needed to offset the "rise" the cross slide vise gave to the work being held.
But I'm thinking with my newer Delta HCM I could just bolt the X-Y vise to the original HCM base and add the riser block that came with it.
I have had the cross slide vise for a few years (auction purchase) and have the bits and taps to convert it. It should be worth a try anyhow.
I am pretty happy with my ShopFox bench top machine. I chose it because of the table and hold down design and wasn't surprised about how it worked when I started using it. Regarding the smoothness of the walls of the cut, I don't see completely smooth walls a particular plus, as you can get a good interference fit anyway and the irregularities from the chisle marks serve as a glue reserve. I think it is more a pride of craftsmanship issue unless you are doing through mortises.
well, another turn to the saga today - during the running of some errands, I stopped in at a lumber yard that I do business with (actually it hadn't been on the list, but the glass shop man takes a late lunch so I stopped in to kill a little time till the glass shop re-opened) and displayed in the windows along the front of the building was the Shop Fox line of equipment -
and there was the benchtop mortiser...so I walk over and turn it around so I can get a feel for it, I work the lever, jiggle the fence, look at the bag of leftover parts - turn the price tag to where I can see it...$145...?!
the unit has a 1/2" chisel mounted - I ask Bobby (gal that runs the books/knows what's going on) "is there a set of chisels that go with this? most units come with a set, not just one." - - 'no, I don't think so, everything is there, let me get Ken' (the business owner) - 'no, just the 1/2", we can order others...'
"OK, I'll take it" - hell, I've spent more than that in a restaraunt...if I don't like it, I'm not going to be out anything..."that's a really good price."
so I pull the van up close to the doors and Ken and I lug the unit out and set it in the cargo - - I continue on with errands, finally getting home about 5:30 - get the fire going, listen to the messages on the machine, there is Ken - "the help priced it at my cost...yada yada..."
too late to call the business, so I file it under 'I knew it was too good to be true', fixed supper, discussed the situation with DW over vegetable soup, how am I gonna handle this one? could be a prick - 'deals done...' but that would add a sour note to a 30 year relationship with Ken and the business - - if I gotta pay $250 for it, I don't really want to spend that much right now, and it's my second choice from the research I've done - - could just take it back, but that's awkward too, not too mention it's setting in my van a mere 20 feet from my shop....
so I look on-line, trying to find out how cheap I could actually get one - (basically $224 +ship, except for here: http://www.toolpeddler.com/w1671.htm where they list it for $189.95...wonder if it's a knock-off...) - - while I'm at the computer, the phone rings, Ken on the line - says 'it's a done deal, you're a good customer, Merry Christmas' - - turns out all the equipment was priced at cost (shoulda bought the whole line <G>),
anyway, son got home, we lugged it into the shop, I read the instructions, did an initial tune, pugged it in, chopped one mortise in a hunk of oak, shut the shop down, walked back to the house grinning....
think I'll like it just fine....
"there's enough for everyone"
I haven't used a PM719, just fondled one at the store. It struck me as being low and I'm just a six footer. My first impression was I'd need to put a pretty tall platform under it. Maybe that's just because I'm used to DP's and B/T HCM's. How does it work for you?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
When I first unboxed it did seem a little low, I'm 6'5" and the only problem with the size is stooping a litlle to clamp the board. The 719 is designed to let you get your full swing on the handle, and it has to accomadate all size users, trust me that it does. All in all we love it, but a huge General would be nice....
Or mabe an old Oliver with foot operation.....
The old one foot operated beasts tend to hold their value. I found a PM#400 and after a motor swap to 1 phase it was close to a new PM719A. Unfortunately its was in South Carolina and the shipping to LA was the deal breaker.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Grizzley, model #G0540, single spindle boring machine, $275.00. Had mine for 6 months. Cut mortises all day long. Check it out on their web site....Jimmy
well, it's a curious life...got a phone call just as I was sitting down to supper tonight - previous account wanted to commission a Christmas present (glass topped knife display case - nothing like waiting till the last minute...) - drove over to his house after dining to discuss specifics, and he also wants paneled shutters for 5 windows, to be completed next month - so that's another 60 mortices in addition to the dozen for my personal project (which just got de-prioritized)
hmm...
"there's enough for everyone"
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