Replies

1. 
   JohnWW | Jan 07, 2005 08:25pm | #1

   Tony,

   Are you asking about a traditional hollow chisel mortising machine, a horizontal mortiser, or a router based tool?  

   The smaller import hollow chisel mortisers are direct drive so you can't change their speed, they are usually either 1,700 or 3,400 rpm and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the way either speed cuts or the life of the bits.

   John W. 

2. 
   Peter36 | Jan 07, 2005 09:01pm | #2

   Hi Tony. I have an issue of Wood magazine issue #156, that tests for performance of high speed 3450 vs low speed 1725 mortisers. They tested for the time to cut a mortise and the bit temp in pine, oak, and maple. In terms of speed the 3450 machines would be able to consistently cut the same size mortise in about half the time as the 1725 rpm machines. The bit temperatures didn't have so much variation though. In pine the low speed machine reached 170* and the high speed 186*. In oak the low was 271* and the high was 275*. In maple the low was 275* and the high was 255*. They said that bits do not loose there hardness until about 500*. So in summary of the article they said that the speed was a factor and that low speed machines were more prone to stalling in hardwood because of a chip getting trapped in the tip. Hope this helps and good luck.

1. 
   woodworker418 | Jan 07, 2005 09:39pm | #3

   thanks for the help.  my situation is as follows:  i'm thinking seriously of purchasing a high end combination machine (specifically a knapp tk410).  the only potential problem with the machine is that the horizontal mortiser runs at a fixed speed of 4900 rpms.  is this going to create a problem?  i don't mind that i won't be able to use certain bits, but i would mind alot of there were no bits that i could use to make nice clearn mortises in hard woods.  thx. tony.

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jan 07, 2005 10:00pm | #4

   Does the mortiser use square chisels or is it just a holder for router type bits? In Europe, they do a lot of loose tenon joinery and the mortise is cut with a router type twist bit.Howie.........

1. 
   woodworker418 | Jan 07, 2005 10:05pm | #5

   its a two jaw chuck that holds anything from zero up to (i believe) 5/8th's.  someone told me i should have no problem making nice tenons at that speed if i use a high quality carbide-tipped straight through, fluted router bit, but i want to make sure before making the investment.  thanks, tony.

1. 
   woodworker418 | Jan 07, 2005 10:07pm | #6

   woops, i meant nice "mortises"...

2. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 08, 2005 12:20am | #8

   Tony,

   I use a slot mortiser attached to a jointer - using mortising bits, it produces a clean mortice.

   Note: Drills are RH twist, the jointer I have is LH twist, so I can't use a drill bit as a horizontal boring bit, I have to buy the specialty item.

   Second note - cut your mortice by first plunging the bit to full depth, then take the bit out of the job, move job location and plunge another full depth hole. Only use lateral travel with the bit in the job when the bulk of the waste is removed. Not doing this will vibrate the chuck loose and then your mortice will be loose.

   I've linked to a picture of some cheap, Chinese(?) slot morticing bits, but note, these are RH twist and wouldn't work in a LH twist machine (link from an ebay auction). I use a set made by CMT.

   View Image

   Others use spiral end mill bits that also work well.

   Good luck

   Cheers,

   eddie

   Edited 1/7/2005 4:27 pm ET by eddie (aust)

   Edited 1/7/2005 4:30 pm ET by eddie (aust)

3. 
   woodworker418 | Jan 11, 2005 12:07am | #11

   thanks for the info.  do you happen to know what the spin rate is of your jointer (and the rpm rate of your mortiser)?  thx. tony.

4. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 11, 2005 01:57am | #13

   Hi Tony,5100rpm (just checked the machine faceplate).It's worked fine at both small and large mortice sizes, 3" plunge depth.Hope that this helps.Cheers,eddieedit: I'm using an older, second hand, MiniMax combo unit - no problems with it at all - good machines

   Edited 1/10/2005 6:04 pm ET by eddie (aust)

2. 
   bones | Jan 07, 2005 10:25pm | #7

   I will be able to provide some feedback after this week-end. I decided to beat the year end price jump on tools and bought the Grizzly horizontal boring machine for $257 prior to going up. It arrived yesterday and the crate is in my garage awaiting quitting time today.  I had concerns about the speed (3450), but after several positive responses to some questions about the unit, I decided to give it a try. It was suggested to use end-mills and there were discussions on 2 .vs. 4 flutes for performance. All I have to play with this week-end is an upcut spiral bit, but I will still be able to test on some mahogany & white oak. I will definitely let you know how it goes. 

3. 
   wop | Jan 08, 2005 12:28am | #9

       Combination machines have a slot mortiser , cuts go with no problem. But if I were you I would go with either a Felder or a Mini-max 40 cm machine. I have had both Felder and Mini-max and I compared all three at the Milan wood tecnology trade fair in May. Didn't like the Knapp as much.

                                                                       Philip

1. 
   woodworker418 | Jan 11, 2005 12:05am | #10

   i'd be interested to learn what you didn't like about the knapp, if you wouldn't mind sharing your impressions.  thx, tony.

1. 
   wop | Jan 11, 2005 01:19am | #12

          Well, From what I have heard Knapp is a relatively small company,from what I see their workmanship is heavy ,sturdy and well executed but none the less artisan quality (a bit on the rough side). I sort of got the impression that they were working with the same level of technology that was used in my 1985 Minimax combo machine. Sort of a more Eastern Europe Quality.

       From what I see on the US market the price range is about the same as the Felder which is what I now own.

      Now you are wondering why I bought Felder instead of Mini-max (since Mini-max has home court advantage here in Italy).   Well, first  someone who buys a combo machine is generally one who works alone; Felder offers a line of accessories ,Extentions ,clamps,whatever... that make working unassisted easier, they have a changeable shaper shaft system that allows the use of router bits in the shaper and to use the same setting of the shaft even after removal of the shaft and hood. i.e. re mount the hood and put back in the shaft and the setting is still there.

     Rear tilting shaper. Opinion but I like it better.  Mobile base system, Felder is compact eaisy to use and store. Planer blade system, Felder uses Esta system, good blades, good price (for disposible hss blades) sure ,they cost me more than traditional blades resharpened, but require 1/10 the changeover time not to mention the time spent to take blades to be sharpened and then going to get them. 

    Mini max uses the Tersa system; this is the absolute max in change over time .... right up there with toilet paper as an invention.... but like any good Swiss A--hole they make you pay through the nose for the blades.

      To me as to quality it's a toss up between Felder and Mini-max. The other downside to Knapp is that in the US it is sold by Laguna tools. Do an archives search on this subject and you will find lots of customer complaints about Laguna.

   These are my observations for what they are worth.Give some time and I could come up with more if you want to hear them.

                                                                                         Philip

      Replacement parts: both Felder and Mini-Max have parts still available for machines over twenty years old , to me that also counts for something.

   Edited 1/10/2005 5:23 pm ET by wop

2. 
   woodworker418 | Jan 11, 2005 05:34am | #14

   all good reasons.  for my part i will say that the felder us organization has been less than professional -- just getting a catalogue and a price quote out of them took almost two weeks and repeated phone calls (a theme, btw, which recurrs throughout the felder's owners group.)  in contrast to that experience, the folks at laguna have been fantastic, but i have yet to make a decision.  one thing i have learned is that contrary to popular opinion, knapp is improving their machine.  as an example, they now offer their own versions of the felder shaper memory fence and power drive mechanisms for the jointer/planer.  what i like about the felder more than anything is the fog.  what i like about the knapp is its industrial build quality.  as for accessories, its funny.  everyone talks about all the felder accessories, but i have yet to find a single one that i would ever use that knapp does not offer or is not readily available from 3rd party suppliers (including felder, btw!).

   anyway, thanks for your thoughts.