Replies

1. 
   Ricks503 | Jul 21, 2005 10:09pm | #1

   Mike,

   Your Profile does not show where you hail from, so some of the following may not apply to you and there might be other suggestions that could be made if we knew where this place was at.

   Who pays what utilities?

   What are your obligations on the lease in the event you close down or want to move to a bigger location?

   What conditions are in the lease concerning the owner raising the rent and what notice does he have to give, if any, to do it; and if he does and you do not like it can you get out of the lease and if so how long do you have to do that.

   What about insurance?

   If there is any, who takes care of landscaping?

   In the winter, if it snows, who is responsilble for lot clearance/plowing?

    

   1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
1. 
   mudman | Jul 22, 2005 01:25am | #2

   Rick,

   Thanks for the ideas. I'm in North Texas, DFW area. I am making a list for when meet the owner. hopefully tomorrow.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

1. 
   Indigo1557 | Jul 22, 2005 06:22am | #3

   Mike...congratulations.  It's a blast having more space and you're gonna find about 4 weeks after moving in that you need more :)

   Seriously though, here the things I've had to deal with...they may or not be relevant.

   Security of my space.

   Utilities - I've had fight not to have folks raise my utilies cause I'm using power tools.

   My access to other parts of the building such as the basement and my rights to store stuff there.

   Improvements - who pays, what are the landlords/lady's parametres etc.

    

   Again, Congratulations.

   Alison

1. 
   mudman | Jul 22, 2005 07:53am | #4

   Hi Alison,

   Its been a while since I've heard from you. Have you settled in your new diggs yet? If so where are the pictures? You promised to post pics of the awesome sounding studio / shop. Also how is business?

     I know that the space will shrink soon, but I am very happy to have found this oportunity. It is a 2200 sqft whare house that was being used as an auto body repair shop, so there are large bay doors across the front of it. That is nice for bringing in machines and supplies (and getting out finished products). My buddy and I are splitting it so I will only be paying $300 a month for just under a 1000 sqft. not counting utilities. This is double the space of my 2 car garage I've been working out of. I am sill trying to keep all the machines packed in togather so I will have assembly and finishing space. My buddy is a grade work contractor and will seldom be there, he is using his side to store construction work enviromental supplies and his tractors. I've been afraid to get a proper shop because of the overhead, it is hard to find small spaces for a good price. When this oportunity came up it seemed like a great perfect. There should even be a little bit of drive by business! Really this is a huge comitment for me. I have mostly been doing small high end remodling work. The cabinetry jobs are only about 20% of my gross. So now I will be trying to reverse that ratio.

   look forward to hearing from you,

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

1. 
   Indigo1557 | Jul 22, 2005 07:20pm | #10

   Mike...you're right...the shop is finally looking great...organized and covered in sawdust :)

   I'll get on it and post some in the next few days...

   and yeah, I know it is a big committement, but I promise you will say to your self in a couple of months, why didn't I do this a long time ago. 

   You're gonna seriously love it.

   Alison

2. 
   mudman | Jul 23, 2005 06:41am | #11

   Alison,

   I still remember your description of large windows, wood floors, and that old loft feel. Sound like a place very condusive to your work.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

3. 
   AlanTurner | Jul 23, 2005 01:55pm | #12

   Mike,
   Read the proposed lease carefully if you will be on it with your friend. Or even if not, and you are just splitting things, still read carefully. Industrial space is typically different that residential or office space in terms of the business end of things. In an industrial space, it is oft triple net, which means that you pay $x per ft. per year, plus all other recurring charges, such as RE tax, owner's fire and casualty ins., etc. Or, it might say that he pays these, but you pay any increases over the base year. Often in these leases the roof is an issue. If it leaks, or even needs replacing, who pays? Who replaces the heater if you need one in Tx. This stuff varies.These are but a few points, but a careful reading of the lease is called for as the terms vary widely. Don't expect the owner to fix anything at all. Note that any improvements you put into the building, such as heat, or wiring, are likely to have to stay when you leave. A friend who is a cabinetmaker just moved to new space, and it cost him about 12K to wire 4000 ft. for his 3 man operation. He does high end custom built ins, kitchens, ent. centers, etc. MOstly sheet goods work, but he does it quite well. He was surprised at the cost, and I am not sure how much of the work he did himself, but he is highly competent. Good luck. I too am moving to a new shop, and in it I am the landlord (there are three of us owners) as well as a tenant. The building is too big for just the three of us, but it is hard to find smaller buildings in Philadelphia.Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

4. 
   mudman | Jul 23, 2005 07:36pm | #15

   I meet the owner tonight and am anxious about all these things. From what I understand you are right. Expect nothing. I get the feeling that this will be a...... don't ask don't tell situation. It is a relatively old whare house that dosen't look like it was all that well cared for. Though it is certiantly good enough for my needs. Near by there are new wharehouses leasing for the same $.33 a foot, but the location is not as good for drive by traffic  and the deminsions of the spaces are not condusive to what we want to do. All the successfull guys doing what I want to do seem to be in simular situations.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

5. 
   Ricks503 | Jul 24, 2005 10:57pm | #21

   One last thing to look at is security.  You will have a sizeable investment in equipment and supplies.  What kind of security is there?  Make sure that you have some decent insurance as well1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

6. 
   FitandCut | Jul 23, 2005 06:41pm | #13

   The garage next to my house is about 900 sq. ft.  The previous owner had replaced the old detached garage with a metal building because he painted cars in it.  He told me, before I bought the house, that he was going to "steam clean" it.  He didn't and it was covered in a layer of gray powder from sanding on his cars.  I didn't complain about that.  It is wonderful to have a shop next to my house.  I have my tools on mobile bases so I can get the car in if hail is predicted.  At $300/month, it would take 5-6 years, or more, to pay for the cost of building a 1,000 sq. ft. shop, not counting the interest you would have made on the initial outlay if you had kept the money in the bank (probably not much), or the interest you might have to pay on a loan (probably a lot). 

7. 
   mudman | Jul 23, 2005 07:01pm | #14

   Fit and cut,

   Or is it cut and fit? Or like me, cut and throw a fit. I have been working happily out of my garage for a couple of years now. I am primarily a  remodeler so demoing the detached garage and building a 30' x 30' two story "garage" has been in the plans for a while now. However I know that we will not be living in this house for ever, and a remod like that is not a benefit for resale. Most people will be put off by garages of those deminsions in this area. I HATE renting things (unless I own it and am renting to others!). In fact I bought my first house at 18 and have never rented since. However I cannot afford to buy a acre or two of land on which I could build a 1000-2000 sqft shop any whare close to me. More importaintly than all of those reasons is that I really don't have a very good work ethic. I love my job.... but I prefer to play. Working 10 feet from the house is just too distracting for me. I end up spending too much time playing on the Net (yea, like now), playing with the 3 kids, or riding my mountain bike. Basicly anything except work. Then when I do work I have a bad habit of starting at 10:00 and working untill 7 or 8:00. My wife hates that. Having to actually drive to work where there are no TVs, computers, or phones should help me focus. If this works out, believe me we will be building our own shop on our own land somewhare, first I want to know that I can make it.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

8. 
   FitandCut | Jul 24, 2005 04:09am | #17

   I started to use "cut and fit" because that is more like what really happens, but there are some experts reading these e-mail who probably do it just right and I would like to be one too, some day.  Good luck on your new place.

2. 
   ring | Jul 22, 2005 11:23am | #5

   Mike,

   Just a few things that came to mind, in addition to those already written -

   Waste disposal?  Are you limited as to what and how you can put things outside the building?

   Noise levels?  If you have close neighbors this could be an issue.

   Electric supply?  Do you have 3-phase in the building, and can you upgrade if necessary?  At whose expense?

   Insurance of all kinds.  What will your insurer demand to cover you for fire, theft, etc.  Is the building equipped with alarm system?  Sprinklers?  Fire hydrant nearby?

   DR

1. 
   Dave45 | Jul 22, 2005 03:56pm | #6

   Make sure you're clear about any rules regarding dust collection and finishing operations.  There may be some restrictions/regulations on noise levels and emissions.

2. 
   mudman | Jul 22, 2005 06:10pm | #9

   Great points DR,

     Noise will not be an issue (asside my occasional fits). Though I am sure that many here will Poo Poo this idea. I am going with the don't ask don't tell policy reguarding dust collection (I have a 2 hp unit) and spraying (I will be making a spray booth though I doubt it would stand up to official scrutiny). This whare house is in an unincorperated area so I doubt that there will be any issues. As far as 3 phase goes I am trying to figure that out. (see my other post)

   Thanks, Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

3. 
   georgek | Jul 22, 2005 04:23pm | #7

   No advise to give you, just want to wish you many years of success and congradulations!

   GO CUBS!!!

1. 
   mudman | Jul 22, 2005 05:57pm | #8

   Thanks benchdog.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

4. 
   forestgirl | Jul 23, 2005 07:47pm | #16

   I don't have any advice, mike, but wanted to say "Congratulations!!!"

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   mudman | Jul 24, 2005 07:54am | #18

   Thanks FG,

   I'm excited but the real congrads will be due if I make it through the first lease!

   BTW I met the owner today. I like him, he is a tradesman himself, not your typical land owner. Looks like we will have a deal by the end of next week.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

1. 
   paulc1 | Jul 24, 2005 12:38pm | #19

   Mike

   No matter what advice you get by all means get a good lawyer.

    I have rented and owned shop space and rented shop space to others. Each aaand everytime  I have used an attorney. What nice about these discussion sites you can use the others experinces to learn and take to your lawyer as questions.

    

1. 
   mudman | Jul 24, 2005 06:25pm | #20

   "What nice about these discussion sites you can use the others experinces to learn and take to your lawyer as questions."

   Amen,

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.