To Jon, or anyone else who can help out. I’m very interested in building something (outdoor bench, chairs or ?) out of cypress. Looking in the newly discovered “American Woods” info from the Yale on-line site, I see 4 different woods called “cypress”, but not all from the same genus.
The cypress listed at Woodfinders is Taxodium distichum (bald cypress, aka Black, Red, White, cypress). Do I insist on knowing if the “cypress” sold at the Seattle hardwood store is T. distichum? Do the other cypresses have similar working characteristics and resistance to decay? Anything else I should know?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
The names you listed are all those commonly or locally used for T. distichum.
What are the other genus names listed?
Forestgirl, chances are the species you'll bump into at the local lumberyard will be baldcypress; Taxodium distichum...but that isn't as sure a bet as it used to be. In recent years yellow-cedar (AKA; Alaska-cedar) has been getting marketed as Alaska-cypress (mostly as a decking), and this "cypress" reference is actually more botanically correct than its other common names...And certainly more correct than our misuse of the term "cypress" as the common name for baldcypress.
Both of these "cypress" woods have very good decay resistance...So, functionally, either of them would perform well in an exterior application. Botanically, though, they stem from very different origins. The true cypress family (Cupressaceae) contains several North American genera that are important lumber sources, although we usually refer to these woods as "cedars"...probably as a legacy of their similar scents. These include the junipers (mostly Juniperus virginiana; aromatic cedar, AKA: eastern redcedar), both western red and eastern white cedars which are in the genus Thuja...two western species; Port-Orford and Alaska-yellow, and one eastern species (Atlantic white-cedar) from the genus Chamaecyparis...and also incense cedar, in the genus Calocedrus. There are also several species of true cypresses native to western North America, but they aren't major commercial timbers...when they do show up, though, they are usually correctly referred to as cypresses.
As for baldcypress, it really isn't a cypress at all. It belongs to the more ancient family; Taxodiaceae, and is actually more closely related to redwood and sequoia.
When using any of these naturally decay resistant "cypress" or "cedar" woods for exterior applications, be careful to avoid using the sapwood. While the heartwood is durable, the sapwood isn't any more decay resistant than most other softwoods, like pine, spruce or fir. In fact, it is even less resistant than are most of the more resinous pines.
The woods that were listed which had "cypress" in their common names were:
Bald cypress (Taxodium distichum)Monterey cypress (Cupressus macrocarpa)McNab cypress (Cupressus macnabiana)Arizona cypress (Cupressus arizonia)
Sorry, I should have listed all of these in my initial post. Thanks for the information on the different so-called "cedars." Interestingly enough, when I asked to see some cedar ("red" - to build Adirondack chairs) they said they hardly ever get cedar in -- that what came their way was of insufficient quality to carry. This was very surprising to me, as I'd have thought here in the Northwest, cedar would be readily available. Where does all this cedar come from that commercial outdoor furniture is made of?
I asked specifically about Yellow Cedar, and they didn't have any, so I guess it's a safe bet that the cypress they have is not YC.
One more question: Is it appropriate to ask the genus and species of a particular wood when in a large lumber outlet that caters to "real" woodworkers??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG I have worked with cypress a little, it looks like pine, works like a hardwood. You need sharp tools to work it. The cypress I get comes out of Louisiana and is probably baldcypress. The old growth is supposed to be more resistant to decay than the younger wood. The problem with that is it grows slow and most of the old growth has been harvested. I have a friend who lived in the bayou country in southern Louisiana in his great grandfathers house. The house was made of cypress over one hundred years old and had never been painted. He used cypress tomato stakes in his garden that were as old as the house. Each year when the garden was done they piled the tomato stakes under the house to use next year. The next year the end that was in the ground last year went up this year. It will turn silver gray if left unfinished. The last I bought I paid $2. bf.
They use to make piroughs (boats) in Louisiana out of cypress, they were light, strong, and resistant to decay. If they weren't going to use it for awhile they would sink it in the water to keep the wood swelled so it wouldn't dry and leak.
Gods Peace
les
Forestgirl, it's always appropriate to use the botanical name when it is important to be certain you are getting the exact species you want. In fact, it's probably the only sure way (providing everybody's telling the truth) that you ARE getting the right species. Most specialized cabinetwood dealers have a pretty good understanding of what they stock...but if you resort to Latin in any of the Big Box outlets, they'll probably just think you're a foreigner.
As for the list of "cypress" species in your second post, the first is the eastern baldcypress (relative of redwood), while the remaining three are among those that I referred to earlier as the "minor" species of western, true cypresses. We virtually never see them here in the Midwest market.
As for your comment about your lumber dealer not being able to source western redcedar, I'm surprized. Maybe he was referring to Eastern red (aromatic cedar) as being hard for him to get. There are some western species in the juniper genus that are closely related to aromatic cedar, but they tend to have a bad quality reputation (stability and checking problems)...Maybe that's what he was thinking of.
If you can't find yellow-cedar and would like to give it a try, I'd suggest contacting Keith at Easycreek. Can't say as he's cheap, but what I've received from him has been virtually perfect material.
Edited 5/3/2003 4:31:56 PM ET by Jon Arno
I wish that here I could get the lumber yard owners to tell me the exact species. But usually they don't know. Only the commercial names are available And those often don't give me much information. For instance I see so much difference in european cherry(the wood I use the most) that I am convinced that it cannot all be the same species even it is marketed as such.
Recently I have been trying to sort through the rosewood species but here I have no reliable person who can tell me what is what and reference material in Italian is lacking. I realize that alot is just curiosity because when you find a beautiful wood you don't really care what it is . but ... oh ,damned if I'm not curious. You didn't happen to write a book on identifying woods did you.
Philip
P.S. The other day I saw one called Amazaque at my principal supplier any idea what it could be?
Sorry Philip, There's no book written by me on wood Identification. I'm still much more a student than a master of that subject.
As for your new mystery wood, amazaque, I don't recognize the spelling and suspect it's been either "Italianized" or just plain botched (I AM an expert when it comes to making spelling errors...one of the best, in fact.) Is this wood sort of course textured, yellowish brown in color, with dark brown (almost black) stripes? And does it have a rather strong, sort of (unpleasant) resinous odor? If so, it could be an African timber (Guibourtia ehie) that sometimes goes by the name of amazoue or amazakoue. It's also called ovangkol or sometimes Mozambique. If this is the right wood, it's a relative of bubinga, but not as fine textured and it lacks the warm reddish hues typical of bubinga. It's very attractive though, especially if it has wavy or interlocked gain.
Edited 5/3/2003 9:31:54 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 5/3/2003 9:43:06 PM ET by Jon Arno
Yes that sounds like it and yes it is probably Italianized. Here the commercial names are often modified to make them more pronouncable or just to make them sound more attractive. This wood had very nice grain which is what attracted me but if it has a bad odor when working I think I will pass. I've about had my fill of stinky tropical woods for a while. Thanks for the info though.
Philip
Speaking of stinky wood, my cheap outdoor teak furniture smells strong and is weathering fast, despite annual applications of teak oil and (once) teak "sealer." What can I apply to prevent weathering of teak, and maybe offset the smell?
Todd
You need UV protection to stop the weathering that causes color change. That is not provided by the oil, probably not by the sealer either, from what you're reporting.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jon, would you guess that the cedar I usually see out here in the form of red Adirondack furniture is Western Red?
Also, where is Keith at Easycreek located?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If that furniture is being built locally out there, it's most likely western redcedar; Thuja plicata. Personally, unless you really beef up the dimensions, I think this species is a little soft for use in furniture making.
As for tracking down Keith, give him a try at: [email protected] Be patient on the reply, though...he might be out back stoking the still. :o) Seriously, I think he's a trucker, by trade, and not always at his warehouse...But I'm sure he'll get back to you.
Jon - I am planning to build an arbor gate using four 4X4 posts set a couple of feet below ground in compacted gravel. Would "cypress" be suitable for these posts? I have access to redwood and cedar, but they are quite expensive and I thought of cypress as a reasonably priced substitute. I plan to seal it with pitch or some commercial product.
Virtually all members of the cypress family have excellent weathering properties...So, if the price is right, there wouldn't be any real trade off relative to western redcedar.
Your plan to coat the below grade ends of the posts is a very good idea. While these cypress timbers weather well, part of their "strategy" for decay resistance is that they shed water quickly...because their vascular tissue is tube-like and unobstructed. When kept perpetually moist (as is the case below grade) they aren't as durable as some other species that are decay resistant more as a function of their antiseptic extractives.
Creosote used to be the poison-of-choice, but there are now other treatements that work well...but you definitely want to coat the ends with something.
When I was down in Madagascar a few years ago I saw workers charing in a fire the base of posts to hold grape vines. They told me that this greatly increases the time before they rot under ground and doesn't require any chemicals.
Philip
Philip, I can't confirm this fire treatment as a means of retarding decay. I suppose, if it draws the wood's resins to the surface it might create a barrier of sorts (depending upon the extractives in the species.) The more expected effect of fire treating wood is that it tends to harden it...something that's been known since the Stone Age, when this technique was used to help make the tips of spears more rigid and thus penetrate better.
Forestgirl, just as an after thought, If I lived out there in Bigfoot Country within smelling distance of native yellow-cedar, it would be my first choice for a project like the one you describe. It's denser than most of the "cedars" and fine textured enough to have excellent shaping charateristics...making it a very nice cabinet wood. Port-Orford is also a great species for fine work, but it's so scarce now it's difficult to find at an affordable price.
I use highly selected, vertical grain yellow-cedar for making dulcimer soundboards and I love working with it. The scent is potent, but pleasant (sort of spice-like.) I've been buying it from a guy named Keith out there (Oregon, I think) at a place called Easycreek. Don't know his mailing address (could be intentional on his part :o) ), but if you do an internet search on EASYCREEK, I'm sure you'll find him...Also, I'm sure there are many sources for this species in the Seattle area. Certainly more than we have here in the Midwest, anyway.
Forestgirl, cypress is a great wood to work. It does resemble pine, at least the bald cypress I've used. And if staining, you can have trouble with splotching. But it's a pleasure to use. I must add, I have a friend here in Florida, Merrill at Alva Hardwoods, that has obtained some old growth 16/4 cypress posts salvaged from old water towers near Tampa. I don't know what you're looking for, but I've seen it, and it's nice. Real tight growth rings. ( I'm pretty sure it's that size) Just a thought.
Those reclaimed cypress posts almost make me wish I still lived in Florida, but hope -- am way over here in the Great Northwest. The shipping bill would be a bit high, maybe, eh?
Thanks for the tip on splotching. Gotta watch out for that problem in advance, and get the shellac ready to go!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It's important to remember, and I think you understand, that no wood is rot "proof" although some are more rot "resistant" than others. I've heard from several sources that Sikkens products for commercial or residential exterior wood treatment is considered the top of the line. See if this will help...
http://www.nam.sikkens.com/index-english.cfm
Good luck.
Forestgirl,
A blast from the past...regarding your cypress post in 2003. Did you end up making anything from Cypress? I am tearing down a barn this weekend the is double wall construction clad with 1x8x10 bald cypress boards. It's 40 years old and solid as can be. Planed the rough spots off of facing sides and it is very nice. Our church bought the property where the barn is. We'd like to use the wood as a fundraiser. Potting benches, adirondack chairs, planters, etc... If you made a bench, how did that work out. We'd like to have contemplation areas with benches around the campus made from some of the rougher edged boards (on edge), rough side down of course.
Ken
Wow, that is a blast from the past! Nope, I didn't find any cypress at that time that interested me, went on to do something else. Seems like it's a very good bet, though, for outdoor stuff. I have a warm spot in my heart for cypress, the word, from living in Florida as a kid.
Next time I get to Crosscut in Seattle, I'll look and see if their supply is any better. Good luck!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The cypress I've tried has great rot resistance but it's hairy/fibrous and I found it difficult to get a fine (indoor furniture quality) finish on it.
Ya don't finish it if it's headed outdoors. Ages to a nice gray like cedar does.
I've got a pic at home of an adirondeck couch that I made years ago. It went with 6 chairs as a set for a Dr. in Mass. back in '91. He didn't like the color when it was completed so we just sat it on top of the building for 3 months out in the weather.
Had a wind storm and it got blown off the roof, fell about 60' to the parking lot. Just a few scratches. He said it added to the patina!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/20/2008 3:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I tried to get some to hold a finish but it did not turn out well. Well okay, it turned out horrible.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled