Tilgear, a British tools retailer, has some sale offers on Mujingfang planes and Zone saws. I was hoping Knots denizens might have experience of these.
The planes include an ebony-bodied 18 inch try plane and a Plough plane, at $100 and $50 respectively. They are what is often called Hong Kong style planes. The Zone saws are small, straight-handled backsaws of small size and fine tpi, made in the USA, all going for around $10 – $12.
In light of recent discussions about cheaper tools and also my lack of either of the above-mentioned plane-types (or a wooden plane of any type) I am considering giving these a go.
If anyone has used them, I would be very grateful for any information about their utility and qualities.
Lataxe
Edit: I searched on Zona and got loads of good opinions from past Knots posts. I’ll be trying one of those.
Thee are a coupleof Mujingfang posts, including a very nice pic from Derek Cohen of the try plane with a fine ribbon exiting its mouth. However, there is not too much info about its working qualities.
Edited 2/8/2007 2:24 pm ET by Lataxe
Replies
Sehr geehrte Herr Holzmeister!
This model of the Mujingfang plough plane is a part of my plane inventory:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98.120.4033&dept_id=13602
I bought it a couple of years ago from Japan Woodworker, and use it fairly frequently.
The plane itself is nicely made, smooth-finished (looks like an oil finish) Asian Rosewood, with no nasty sharp edges, unsightly gaps, or anything of that sort. The cut-out/bedding area for the irons is pretty clean and smooth, and allows the iron to sit flat on the wooden portion, as well as the steel skate, at about a 45° angle. The wedge and cross bar hold the iron firmly in place. The skate is very firmly embedded into the plane body, with zero movement front to back or from side to side.
The out-rigger handles fit the mortises for them quite well, becoming increasingly tighter as you emplace the handles deeper, and are held in place by small screws.
The fence is well-made, but the tightening mechanism is one thing that I don't particularly care for. It certainly works (and works well), but I find it rather crude, as it is nothing more than a bent length of threaded rod with a wing nut on top to place pressure on each of the fence arms, to hold the fence at the desired distance from the plane body.
One other thing that I don't overly care for is that this is a uni-directional plane; the fence can not be used on the other side of the plane body to cut in the opposite direction (although I don't think that it would be that hard to fabricate an opposite-handed fence and pair of tightening mechanisms...).
The irons are of decent quality high carbon steel. They will certainly need prep before the initial use, but once honed, hold an edge pretty well (we're certainly not talking about LN or LV A-2 cryo edge holding capability here, but you don't have to re-hone after every 5 strokes, either....).
My experience has been that this plane works much better in pull mode than in push mode, even though either can be used.
In use, I find that it creates (narrow) grooves and rebates easily, but you have to check the depth frequently as you're ploughing along, since there is no depth stop. A bit of practice will make fairly easy to get the groove/rebate depth consistent, but having a router plane or a crank neck chisel of the appropriate size is useful to even out those inevitable rough spots. I've also found that using a saw (I normally use a Kamabiki or an Azibiki) to define the walls of the groove results in a much smoother and better looking groove. A very light cut seems to work best -- less tear out and gouging -- even though you end up having to make more passes.
Even though there are a couple of features that I think could have been implemented in a bit classier manner (especially the fence tightening mechanisms) and there are a couple of features missing (most notably, a depth stop and a pair of side nickers), based on the results gained from using it for a couple of years, I think this plane is a very good value for the money. Even though you have to make some minor allowances for its quirks and short-comings, it does do a nice job of cutting grooves, and the price is certainly right.
_____
There are also a couple of "Singapore-style" Asian Rosewood planes, similar to the ebony try plane you're asking about, that have been in my plane inventory for about the same amount of time as the plough plane. These are the 63° poor-man's-substitute-for-the-HNT-Gordon models, that I use for cranky grained woods:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98.107.3155&dept_id=13602
Most of the same comments I made about the plough plane apply to these: nicely-made, decent edge-holding, the iron will need proper prep work before initial use, work best in pull mode, etc.
Once you get the hang of setting a wedged iron for a very light cut, there really aren't any quirks that you need to allow for when using them.
IMO, you really can't go wrong with these either, especially for the price. Mine have planed a fair amount of uncooperative wood, for which the only other options were either a card scraper or the sanding machine..... Again, I'm quite satisfied with the results, and have found them to be a very good value.
_____
Hope that this is of some use to you in coming to a decision.
.
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Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Semper Paratus!
...[Message truncated]
Edited 2/8/2007 3:34 pm by pzgren
James,
Thanks for all that good advice - comprehensive and informative as ever (another one for my saved collection of James plane-wisdom posts).
Unless someone gives me a reason not to, I will be after getting that 18 inch ebony-bodied jointer. It will be a good introduction to wooden planes, even if it needs fettling a bit. I can also justify it as I ain't got anything longer than 11 inches just now.
As the Tilgear flyer says, it is a beautiful object and would make an excellent ornament! And if worst came to the worst, that ebony will make a lot of square plugs for the Greene & Greene. :-)
Various stuff on the Web indicates that these planes are well made and functional, with super-hard irons. One "complaint" has been that they take a good while to sharpen (but hold an edge for ages). It sounds like your plough plane does not have rock-ard blades however.....?
The lack of nickers is also a worry. I don't really fancy the preliminary sawing of the groove-sides (and this has also been putting me off getting a Veritas router plane). I was hoping that Rob Lee would produce a redesigned plough plane with all the updated engineering to make it work well, in the usual Veritas fashion.
Still, the price is right, as you say. It will not break the bank to have a go with the Mujingfang plough. It can always become another ornament......
I am hoping for some additional experienced users to post.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I'm not sure about the hardness of the plough plane irons -- based on performance, my SWAG is around Rc 60 +/-. They do hold an edge, and there's so little of it to hone that it's real quick to re-new it.
The irons on the bench planes are, according to the Japan Woodworker site, Rc 62 - 63, so they may be marginally more difficult to hone than a Stanley or Record original iron (Rc 58 - 60?) or the LN A-2 irons (Rc 60 - 62).
To tell you the truth, I don't notice very much difference in the time needed to re-hone the edge between the original vintage Stanley, the LN, or the Mujingfang irons. The initial prep of the back side of the Mujingfang bench plane irons took about the same amount of time and effort as the initial prep work for my vintage Stanley irons, for whatever that may be worth.
On the try plane, you may have to flatten the sole a bit, but that's a breeze with some 220 grit glass paper and a flat surface. It takes all of about 3.3750 minutes -- maybe.... (It will probably take longer to gather the materials and do the set up than actually do it....) The smaller Singapore-style Rosewood smoothing planes have a small brass insert dovetailed in front of the mouth, which is very nice for keeping the mouth reasonably tight; the ebony try plane may also have this feature, but the web site description doesn't say one way or another....
Anyway, I think you'll probably like them; they're nice planes, have decent performance, and aren't terribly expensive, to boot.
.
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Tschüß!<!----><!---->
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus <!----><!---->dem<!----> <!---->Land<!----> der <!----><!---->Rio Grande<!----><!---->!!<!----><!---->
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James<!----><!---->
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Semper Paratus!<!----><!---->
Pro Patria!
I bought one of the Zona saws from Lee Valley this past fall. It is the larger of the two that LV offers. It has it's place in my shop, however it is used more for trimming dowel ends and similar tasks instead of dovetail type chores. The cost was IIRC about $15.00. The saw cuts on the pull stroke.
I did try it on some dovetails and it just didn't feel right to me. Now, to be fair, I have never used a "broom handle" dovetail saw as I have several open grip rip saws including a modern Adria and several Disstons. Maybe I'm spoiled by the saws I used and that prohibited me from "truly experiencing" the Zona. However, at the Lee Valley price, it is miles beyond any comparatively priced saw and anyone wanting a saw to "test the waters" would find it very attractive (almost dangerous, as it will lead the user into vintage or modern saws).
Tony,
Thanks for that advice and the warning about the slippery slope to saw heaven. Unfortunately I have already slid a bit and have been using the excellent DT and tenon saws from Mike Wenzloff to good effect in my recent larnin' of hand tool skills.
The Zonas are cheap and worth the experiment. Tilgear are selling off three models, including one with three interchangeable blades - al three saws for around $25.
Lataxe
If you ever get the chance, give Tilgear a visit. They often have all sorts of daft clearance items which do not show in the catalogue, I go at least twice a year and always buy a lot more than I intended.
David,
Quite a few folk recommend Tilgear; and they do offer some engineering-based stuff that is a rather interesting perspective for we woodworkers to contemplate.
Unfortunately they are far away from Galgate so I have yet to visit their shop. One day.....
Lataxe
Hi David,
Zona saws are, I was told by an instructor and several students, the preferred weapon of choice for dovetails at the famous College of the Redwoods. My teacher, from a different school who was there (visiting COR) as well, bought one and likes it. They're cheap enough so little is risked. Ive tried hers found it easy to start, holds a line, produced a nice finish and a very thin kerf to boot.
Cheers
Tom
In general the Chinese have been working with "exotic" hardwoods for a couple of hundred years. Chinese planes have been used to produce some of the most amazing furniture ever built. When working with Chinese planes it helps to think of them as oversize spokeshaves. Up to now I was not able to verify the distinction between "Hong Kong Style", "Taiwan Style", "Singapore Style", etc. This might just be a Western marketing kind of thing. However, it is conceivable that there is a difference between planes used in the North and in the South of China.
As far as I know all Chinese planes are used with a cross bar, primarily on the push stroke. In contrast to what you read in some importer's descriptions, the cross bar is not for pulling the plane; again think of it as a spoke shave.
According to legend Lu Ban invented the plane (as well as the saw, chalk line, various other tools, as well as the umbrella and feng shui) during the "Spring and Autumn Period" (722BC to 481BC).
You can pick up Chinese planes at pretty much any Chinese hardware store for a few dollars.
Specifically and related to your question: I was never able to locate Mujinfang brand tools in China. It is conceivable that Mujinfang is a brand made specifically for export. My guess is that quality wise Mujinfang planes are somewhere between HNT Gordon planes at the high end and Chinese hardware store planes at the low end.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for that info and the history - always good to know where stuff comes from.
I read somewhere on the net (can't now find the page, of course) that someone in China decided to gather and judge the quality of the many traditional planes made by various cottage industry workers across China. The best makers were slected to be suppliers to Mujingfang, a company specifically set up to market the planes to the world.
I know no more but presumably this basic quality control means the planes all reach a certain standard and have a standard set of designs; and there may be additional work by Mujingfang themselves, eg to supply quality blades....? I will be digging to find more info....
Lataxe
As far as I know all Chinese planes are used with a cross bar, primarily on the push stroke. In contrast to what you read in some importer's descriptions, the cross bar is not for pulling the plane; again think of it as a spoke shave.
Hi Chris
The HNT Gordon planes and spokeshaves are held in an identical manner. The crossbar on the planes is removable and thinner, but one can see the similarity.
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I have a few Mujingfang planes as well as HNT Gordon. The build quality of the Mujingfang is good but not as good as the Gordon. Also, the Gordons use a 1/4" thick iron whereas the Mujingfang use about 1/8". Nevertheless, the Mujingfang planes are superb value for money. The quality of the steel is excellent (I also have one that is HSS), and their performance is in the top bracket.
Here is a Mujingfang 11" Jack (45 degree bed) planing pine.
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Regards from Perth
Derek
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