Folks, this started with writing down my thoughts about a tablesaw purchase in hopes of organizing them, and it grew into a decent story that I thought some here might be entertained by, or perhaps interested in. Though I’m not necessarily seeking an answer to a question, Obviously I would love to hear advice/comments if you feel I should know something. Melissa – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – I’ve been mooching off of generous friends’ power tools for about 5 years now. This woodworking hobby (addiction? obsession?) of mine shows no sign of flagging – in fact it is accelerating. I have a good job… and so far no family to suck away my disposable income. Time to start building up my own shop. I hate to be so utterly predictable (I considered a bandsaw as my first big purchase), but ultimately it was the tableaw I kept reaching for (and finding it not there. I mean what the heck, my neighbor wants his saw in his own garage?!). So I decided to buy a tablesaw. Where to begin? They’ll all cut wood. As with any major purchase, there are so many choices, with features, pros, cons, and people’s opinions differing greatly – so I had to get my priorities in order before even beginning. Here they are, in order: (*) Riving knife for anti-kickback (not just a splitter) [This one constraint kicked me up into the pricier saws faster than anything else.] (*) Good dust collection [This constraint led me away from the less-expensive saws as well.] (*) Good quality (ie, “buy it once”) [This constraint rules out most table-top and contractor saw models.] And that is pretty much it on the priorities. Obviously I would like to spend as little money as possible, but I’m letting that take a back seat to at least the first two priorities. My “I would like to spend” number has been skipping around quite a bit throughout this process, but the general trend is creeping up. I can afford top-of-the-line, so while I do not anticipate buying top-of-the-line, I am not leaving much out of the consideration exercise, including the Powermatic 2000 and the Sawstop Cabinet saw. Below is a little more discussion on my priorities. I decided that my saw absolutely must have a proper riving knife. Safety is extremely important, if for no other reason than to enhance my experience of my hobby (racing pulse and a feeling of dread whenever I realize I need to use the tablesaw are things I’m trying to avoid). The Sawstop brake is super cool, but I don’t feel as passionately about it as I do the riving knife. I have immense respect for 3600-rpm-whirling blades. It’s kickback that I’m most afraid of (and kickback that, anecdotally at least, sends most tablesaw users to the ER). Besides, any system that has a riving knife has a blade guard (clear plastic shroud over the blade) that rides over the workpiece, which not only guards against inadvertent contact with the blade, but aids dust collection too. The Sawstop is still a front-runner at this point, though, because it does have the riving knife. The riving knife also ruled out, for the most part, used machines and craigslist-type purchases, because it is such a new feature (at least in the US). But that’s okay by me, because I am skittish about making large (>$100) purchases from strangers. Heck, I sold my old car for $500 to a guy and neglected to mention that the cylinder compression was less than healthy. Buyer beware, right? I know… I am evil. So I can’t rule out the possibility that others are evil. I’m an engineer; I could fix a motor and/or tune up a machine if I had to. But the bottom line is that I want the (limited) time I devote to woodworking to be woodworking – not troubleshooting a saw I got for a bargain. As a poster on another woodworking forum said of this topic: I’ll take the hit for a new machine. Dust collection is an entirely different form of safety – not nearly as spectacular as a blade-stopper, but I would venture that it is at least as important if not more. (Consider the probability curves of dust-in-lungs and finger-in-blade, integrated over decades of woodworking. There’s no denying that while the probability of finger-in-blade is low, the associated cost is very high. However, the cost of a lifetime of breathing dusty air has a very high cost as well – and the probability of that = 1.0, if one chooses a machine without the capability for sufficient dust mitigation.) So for the dust collection, I wanted a saw with an enclosed base and a 4″ suction port. I know, you can seal up contractor’s saws pretty darn well, but (1) I’m lazy, (2) contractor-base saws have other disadvantages, including the motor off the back interfering with outfeed tables when the blade is tilted, and (3) the riving knife constraint pushes me into a price class where I may as well consider hybrids/cabinet saws anyway. By good quality, I mean ease and joy of operation, and accuracy and repeatability of cuts. I’ve used several “Home Depot type” contractor saws (no offense, Home Depot, I think you’re awesome, but you carry saws of a certain category), and was consistently disappointed with my cuts. The first time I used a cabinet saw, I was overwhelmed – I thought the previous poor cut quality and accuracy were my fault. They were at least partially the saw’s fault. Now, this could be because those other saws weren’t tuned up right, or were old and neglected (and typically no safety features, by the way). That’s what you get when you mooch off others’ power tools! And I’m not complaining. Those saws are fine for what they are advertised to be, which is for contractors, not finish carpenters, or fine-detail woodworkers. For my growing obsession with fine-detail woodworking, I wanted to buy the right saw first, and never find myself looking to upgrade. For cut accuracy, there are all the usual considerations: (*) Vibration (weight, weight, weight) (*) More powerful saws are safer. (Just think about slicing onions with a dull knife.) (*) Quality of fence and miter gauge (but you can always go for after-market products.) (*) Parallel blade/flat table/arbor runout (all typically, but not always, correlated with price – because quality control costs money.) Major factors in ease of setup/operation: (*) Trunnion mounts (under-table vs. cabinet-mounted). If the blade and miter slots are out of parallel at all, then a cabinet-mounted trunnion will make your life so much easier. Of course, this IS just a one-time adjustment, so the pain of it is amortized over the time you use the saw… (*) Blade change (eg, Jet models have a push-button arbor lock) (*) Riving knife change (the easier it is, the more likely you are to use it for EVERY cut) (*) Construction of parts, knobs, levers, etc: beefy or flimsy? Do settings “creep” when you lock fences/tilts? (*) Mobile base (These things are heavy! Most are after-market, but a couple have integrated casters) (*) Last but not least, warranty and customer service reputation of company – just in case. (Unfair though it may be, I was considering a Laguna until I read the online complaints about their customer service, and it really spooked me.) Okay, now the fun part: the actual machines. It goes without saying that I read every review, tutorial, and online comment about tablesaws that I could get my hands on. (The search, for me, is nearly as fun as ordering the machine once I’ve settled on it. On the other hand, I regard similar consumer research for, say, a digital camera as an enormous chore: better if someone just tells me what to buy. I take this as further confidence that I really have settled on the right hobby.) My initial cycle of research led me to the following front-runners: SawStop contractor saw ($2261 for pickup) Jet Proshop hybrid saw ($900 shipped) WoodTek hybrid saw ($1067 shipped) (The prices shown are for similarly equipped machines, best price I could find, circa mid January 2010.) I settled on these for a few reasons. A major factor was that I was skittish about adding a 220V circuit, so I was limiting myself to 1.75 hp and below. I was spending most of my time looking at the higher end of the 1.75 hp category, and these three rose to the top. I didn’t like the fact that the Sawstop was contractor-style, with the motor hanging off the back and the open base. Although, reviews were saying it cut very nicely and that the included dust collection port caught about 95% of the dust. Plus of course it has the blade brake, and a tricked-out retractable-caster mobile base, which I apparently have a thing for, retractable mobile bases. I particularly like the specs and features of the Jet Proshop, and I was super impressed by Tom Hintz’s review of it ( http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/jetproshopsawrvu.html). The Woodtek has a 2hp motor, which would be nice for a little more power (I work a lot with oak) as long as I kept it on a 20A circuit of its own. BUT…… the Jet and the Woodtek don’t have riving knives. I agonized for a while about whether to forego a riving knife for $1200 and a true hybrid saw. I read tons of tutorials and comments about the differences between riving knives and traditional splitters. I thought about getting hit with kickback. I finally decided that lack of riving knife was a deal breaker. That decision changed the whole game for me. Why? Because I figured I ought to look at more models that had riving knives. Besides: Woodcraft said, “The SawStop Contractor saw with 36″ T Square fence, mobile base and cast iron wings will be $2128.00 plus sales tax [$133] and an additional freight charge of $175.00 to ship from the west coast to the store for you to pick up. There is additional charge of $150.00 if you want the saw drop shipped (curb side) to your location.” That’s $2586! I’m sorry, but for a CONTRACTOR SAW? I can get a Powermatic 2000 (the absolute Dream Saw for me, IMHO) shipped to my door for the same price. Okay, if I shop around some, and forego the home delivery, I can get it down to $2261. Still: “dang”, is all I have to say about that. So, that’s how I came to be looking at full-fledged cabinet saws and still considering myself sane. I mean, if I was seriously considering spending $2600, then let’s rewire the basement and seriously consider spending $2600, right? The slow infiltration of riving knives into the US market is starting (unsurprisingly) with each manufacturer’s flagship cabinet saw. I had to open up my search to include the big boys. Post-budget-demise, my new cast of front-runners is: Grizzly G1023RL ($1219 shipped) Grizzly G0690 ($1394 shipped) Jet Deluxe Xacta ($1868 shipped) Powermatic 2000 ($2600 shipped) SawStop contractor saw ($2261 for pickup) (Again, prices shown are for similarly equipped machines, best price I could find, circa mid January 2010.) This is coming down to “would I shell out for the Powermatic or not?(*)” I will probably buy one of the Grizzlys. I need to understand exactly what the differences between them are (not obvious from their spec sheets). (*) You are likely wondering how I came to the conclusion that the PM2000 is my Dream Saw. Again, I was super impressed with Tom Hintz’s review of it (http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/pm2000rvu.html). Fine WoodWorking also chose it as a winner. The saw, not unlike the Jet ProShop, is just packed with thoughtful and well-engineered features. I’m not necessarily talking about “bells and whistles” – these are features that other saws have, too, for the most part – but everything has been made with the utmost attention to quality, detail, ease of use, convenience, and at the same time, simplicity – elegant, in a word. Once it’s set up, there will be a minimum of babysitting – rechecking for square, for example. And this saw without a doubt will still be around for my children’s children, if I have any. This beast is 700+ pounds of cast iron and steel. That more than a little makes me wonder how the heck I would get it in my basement (and out, when the time comes). Hintz uses a hydraulic crane (yes, you read that right) for his. Although, once it’s set up: it has a retractable mobile base!! How cool is that?!?! – – – – – I guess if I have a question for y’all, it’s whether anybody has used the new Grizzlys with riving knives and what you think (good and bad) of them. Thanks and cheers! Melissa
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Replies
Melissa,
Well, I made it through what may be the longest post ever on Knots (hear that Mel?) - what do I win?
I won't give you any feed back on particular saws, as I have no experience using any of them and I'm sure you've looked a lot more closely at them than I have. I do, however, have a few thoughts on your thoughts:
1) As with anything anyone says, take my advice with a grain of salt. It seems that you put a lot of value on Tom Hintz's reviews. I remember one review where the reviewer completely discredited one tool because of a pet peeve he had - something that I, as a owner of the tool, found to be a non-issue. The bottom line is that it has to work for YOU.
2) I fully understand what riving knives and splitters do. I use neither. I have never had kickback, though I have had stock bind on the blade. I am not saying that they aren't useful, but rather that more important than the latest safety features is the use of good common sense, being aware of what you are doing and the inherent risks involved.
3) I have never used a saw with an arbor-lock button, but I have absolutely no problems with the standard system. I use the wrench in my left hand and hold the blade in my right hand, clad with a leather glove. It's easy.
4) How much power do you need? Are you cutting a lot of 2" thick oak? I do a fair bit of resawing on my 1-1/2HP table, granted in two steps up to full blade height.
5) Mobile bases are great, but remember you can buy them aftermarket as well. I wouldn't buy a saw just becasue I like the castors.
6) Customer service is a huge selling point. I spoke to a Laguna salesman when looking at their bandsaws and asked him about the concerns I had heard about their customer service. He replied that it was a past issue and has been resolved. Remember, it was a salesman who told me this - it may be completely true, or it may not.
I've never looked back and thought, "Gee, I wish I'd bought the cheaper one."
WOW! In the time that it took to read that I bought my 1965 Unisaw, rebuilt it and was cutting wood. I'm a big fan of rebuilding used machinery as there is a lot of bang for the buck, I had a total of $650 invested in including a new Vega fence. Safety is a mindset, you can hurt yourself with any tool if your head is not in the right place.
Great post! I love reading blogs. In my table saw consideration, I probably posted just as many words, but over multiple postings.
You're wise in skipping out on saws with motors that hang off the back. Annoyed me for years... whether I was wood working or just in the garage, I always banged into it. Of course, if it's not the saw, it'd be something else.
It sounds like this saw will be your first major piece of machinery. One thing to consider then is to shop for the saw as an entire system, budget and buy the system. By that I mean:
- table saw
- dust collector
- mobile base
- integrated router table?
- miter system?
I ended up purchasing a Grizzly saw. But it was a small sliding table saw and not one that you mentioned. Ultimately, I looked at crosscutting hard woods and sheet goods as the ultimate determining factor. It rolls around rolls around on a Rockler all-terrain mobile base.
I've also realized that the cost of wood adds up really fast too, so good tools justify themselves pretty fast. :)
I wish you had done your homework before posting :-)
I know your real job is a writer - YES !
Are there any places near you that sell used equipment - maybe you can visit them and try several machines to help decide what's best for you.
SA
Great post, Melissa.
But, go ahead and buy a new-model Unisaw ($3500~). You know you really want one. ;-)
Hello again Melissa,
You have certainly thought this out well and I feel your instincts are taking you in the proper direction. Keep in mind, however, that none of these saw will be perfect off the pallet. Some amount of initial set-up and adjustment will be necessary. In fact, you will probably find it necessary to check and make minor corrections to the saws adjustment each year. That said I think your Grizzly choice is a good one. If you do your homework like you did here, any future decisions you make regarding the acquisition of tools will turn out O.K. Good luck, learn, and be careful.
I am now ready to tackle "War and Peace".
Musts: left tilt, 50" wide cut width, "T" square fence, at least 3 horsepower (get 5 if you have 3 phase), heavy cast iron trunnion and top.
My favorite saw was the PM model 66, 5 hp, 3 phase. Cuts 8/4 oak like butter.
Which ever saw you choose, it's the set-up that is the most important to get the most out of your saw with a nice big out-feed table with a smooth waxed surface.
Ah Melissa,
If only you lived in Yurp, you could research proper TSs:
View Image
Lookit this fine German manufacturer's pdf brochures, found here, and weep. Ye cannae buy these lovelies in the US of A, although Sears stock some of the tinier items (no TS).
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.scheppach.com/fileadmin/scheppach/images/motiv_left_service.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.scheppach.com/tqm.html&usg=__FOq4AHE2o2ytB6PoRJCTTPkmYlM=&h=248&w=268&sz=11&hl=en&start=205&sig2=jnji5MO8rL0RDaZ3fEuFpg&tbnid=fr5daNeZgSN0bM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3DScheppach%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D189&ei=5YtRS4W-N4ye4Qb29JyLCQ
After all, a unisaw is a unisaw is a unisaw. None of the rascals can do owt but rip an already straight-edged plank! Well, not without a collection of enormous home-made mdf boxes and such.
Hang on! I forgot - they can cut a dado. Just add an expensive, dangeroos set of extras that anyway cut a curve-bottomed trough.
Lataxe, unisaw-skeptic.
And yet we managed to build the most powerful nation on the planet with them, hummm....
Napie, lover of the classic Unisaw.
Nap,
You lads and your unisaws built the most powerful nation on the planet? You built China? I thowt it was the Chinese that built America, in nineteen hundred and summick; and not with a unisaw but sheer hard work. :-)
*****
As you know, I like to poke at unisaws 'cos they're dowdy ole designs from 1920. But as Sarge and others have shown, they can be made to perform very well and even safely (should one be concerned about such a nanny matter, as I yam). Also, many of them are built like tanks, or so it seems from here. Solid engineering, no doubt.
Now, the terrible nannies have at last forced the stick-in-the-mud manufacturers of unisaws and their clones to include a riving knife and even a decent guard. In fact, that sawstop has gone one better than any Ypean saw safety-wise. Huzzah!
So when are Mr Delta, Mr Grizzly and Mr Powermatic going to see sense and put a cross-cut carriage and sliding table on their tanks? Wot silly ole reactionaries they are! At the very least, this would mean a cease to the mad articles in FWW about building huge, ungainly and (apparently) innaccurate crosscut boxes out of mdf and bits of scrap. Perhaps this will leave room for an article on the design of Cotswold A&C furniture?
Lataxe, of the C21st
On the first point, China vs the USA, let's see, operational nuclear carrier battle groups: US 9, the rest to the world combined, NONE. Let's not even discuss subs, air superiority, or troop capacity. Britain? We'll not even review capabilities there, suffice it to say the sun sat long, long ago. So on that point we're done.
As to the Unisaw being an "old" design??? This comment coming from the man who uses a drawknife and plow plane, be consistent man, buy a new router and carbide bits!
Napie, Luddite, and proud veteran of the US navy.
Lataxe,
I think Sawstop should work on bringing out a sliding tablesaw.
--jonnieboy
>Lookit this fine German manufacturer's pdf brochures, found
>here, and weep. Ye cannae buy these lovelies in the US of A,
LOL! 8-)
Thanks everyone for your comments. There is always more to learn. I will give the sliding tables another look.
Lataxe, forgive my ignorance but how do you make do without a tablesaw? [i don't mean to incite debate so much as understand how people get ripping done in their shops without a TS?]
Melissa
Melissa,
I have gived a mistaken impression. In fact I have a-one o' them nice Scheppach TS you see in that picksher. I was doing my usual "take the micky out of unisaws" thang, to stimulate Napie. I know he can't stay away from Knots as he loves it really, especially with these nice new colours.
In fact the unisaw design is very robust, as that same ex-sailor points out. But it does seem to lack a decent crosscut arrangement. You will have to buy a Large Chopsaw an' all (or a Radial Arm saw; or a nice Wenzloff maybe).
If you did consider a Ypean style with slider, there seem to be few choices in the US of A, most of them being toppish end of the market and therefore expensive, large and heavy. Knapps, Felders, etc..
I often wonder why the likes of Scheppach don't import to the US. Perhaps there is a trade barrier?
Lataxe, who never measures power with nuclear weapons as the idea is to not use them (MAD).
My bet would be the difficulty of setting up a distribution network. Duplicating a Laguna Tools is not easy. Also products from the EU have a difficult time competing on price here in the states. Finally the "Unisaw" type TS just has a long a history and we are comfortable with it, much like having the steering wheel on the proper side of the vehicle.
Napie, who actually understands the difference between nuclear powered ships and nuclear weapons. And appreciates the concept of MAD...
Dumb question: I thought 'Unisaw' was a model name from Delta. Reading your posts, I'm guessing I don't understand the whole story.
Yes, Unisaw is a Delta brand name but they were the first ones to really promote what we now call a cabinet saw. Most of the ones you see now are modified copies of the Unisaw in some respect.
Melissa,
Well, you really did your homework. I am curious as to whether you also look at or considered a "euro" slider. In addition to the riving knife, they come with a brake so that the blade stops within 5 seconds. Also, the cabinet has micro switches that disable the saw giving you an extra degree of protection when you are working on the inside.
The sliding table is a safety feature in and of itself. Just clamp your work to the table and push it past the blade. At no time is your body in the line of fire. If you have a lot of heavy pieces it is much easier on the body as the slider supports the weight; nice for sheet goods.
All this goodness comes at a price that may well be beyond what you want to spend. Minimax and Felder/Hammer might be worth a quick peek.
Melissa
I did similar
Melissa
I did similar calculations two years ago. I decided that the best bang for the buck (for me) was a Grizzly 1023 plus a Shark Guard. I see that 1023s are being closed out now, which makes the deal even better.
I really like my Shark Guard. It has saved my bacon more than once, and offers good dust collection
Wow the 1023 is being closed out? I bought mine 5 years ago, great work horse and its a great price.
I don't have any info other
I don't have any info other than what's on Grizzly's website, but, it appears like the 1023S is being cleared out to make way for the 1023R, which seems to be the same model, but with a riving knife.....
I'm basing this on the fact that 1023S's are discounted but not 1023RL's.
~mel
That makes since they have had a riving knife model for a while. I know a lot of 1023's are out there. You just can't beat grizzly especially if you have a tight budget. I've got the 1023slx, 12" jointer, 17" band saw, and the horizontal boring machine. All are great pieces.
mg,
Thanks for the writing! I enjoyed it very much.
I'm not advocating for a particular saw, but the SS cabinet saw seems to have pretty much everything on your list.
Riving knife (2, actually)
Retractable mobile base (!!)
Excellent dust collection
Fancy-pants safety brake
3 hp (or 5)
Alas, 220v. Still, you aren't likely to require a full re-wiring of your shop right now for just the addition of a saw.
Take it from someone who is working with a "2-hp" (so they claim) contractor saw and after only a year of woodworking it is underpowered and inaccurate. I'll require something bigger if I'm going to continue on.
My vote is for a good, safe, powerful saw, whatever brand you choose.
Happy hunting! Let us know what you decide.
--jonnieboy
Melissa,
WOW, thats a lot to think about.
I have run all the big saws that are on the market. When I went out to buy a new saw for myself last summer I bought the new Delta Unisaw 3 hp, with the 52" set up. It more than meets your list of specs. It does not have the retractable casters, but you can get a rather nice mobile base for it. I have mine leaning aginst the wall in my shop at the moment. Since moving into my new shop a couple of months ago I found I no longer need it. I have beard a lot of complaints about the onboard casters being difficult to move on any thing other than the smoothest of floors,??? The riving knife and gaurd on the Delta have been very well reviewed as the best. I love the set up myself. As for changing blades it is the easiest I have found as it seens to have more room than any of the other saws. As well the Delta has more room in front of the blade than any other saw on the market. As well the trunnion is different from other saws allowing both adjustment wheel for raising and lowering, and tilting the blade are both at the front of the saw. The saw is also made here in the USA, at Jackson Tennesse.
As for Powermatic, I used to like their equipment but after some of the problems friends have had with their equipment in the recent past, I wouldn't have one. They used to be a great saw before they started making them in China.
Jet, I have half a dozen Jet machines, I just don't care for the saw they build.
Grizzly, they are low cost dollar wise. The guys I know who have them say it's just the luck of the draw. They are what you pay for. There sre some machines they do really well with, such as their Jointers. I guess it's personal preference.
SawStop, great saw, I think they are over priced. I can't speak from experience about their new cabinet or contractors models. I have lots of experience with their Industrial Saw. Like I said it's a great saw. Just make sure you have a spare brake cartridge, one for a regular blade and one for your dado. You never know when one will trip. They require constant adjustments to the cartridge, like any time you change blades.
Woodtek, I have no experience with them, and don't know anyone who has one.
As for getting a big saw into your basement. I would suggest talking to some one who moves gun safes. Thats who I have move my equipment and they have been more than reasonable. If there is a Cabelas in the NE you could ask them who moves their safes or any good gun shop.
Good luck on which ever saw you choose, I would suggest taking a good look at the new Delta Unisaw before you decide, you mentioned Woodcraft, thats were I bought mine.
Oh ya, electrical 220 is no big deal to run a circuit. If your not familiar with electrical a local electrician can run you a plug with out costing very much.
Good luck,
Taigert
>As for getting a big saw into your basement. I would suggest talking to some one who moves gun safes. Thats who I have move my equipment and they have been more than reasonable. If there is a Cabelas in the NE you could ask them who moves their safes or any good gun shop.
Thanks! I will check this out. I was really sweating over this. (was imagining bribing some friends to help with pizza and beer, and somebody slipping and hurting their back, or worse.....)
> They used to be a great saw before they started making them in China.
Aggg! I read this comment about every single thing I buy these days. Sigh.
Melissa
Taigert,
Interesting what you said about the SawStop cartridges needing adjustment after every blade change. I'd never heard of that. I'm assuming you mean other than changing from dado to single blade. That would change the equation a great deal.
--jonnieboy
Jonnie,
You have to maintain a set distance between the cartridge and the blade the thickness of a nickle. Every time you sharpen a blade the diameter becomes smaller, thus a change in distance between the brake and blade. Every blade I have is a different diameter. At around $70.00 per cartridge plus the cost of your blade, are you going to risk not checking and adjusting as you go?
Taigert
Taigert,
Taigert,
Thanks for enlightening me on that. I'm rather surprised I've never heard it before. That's a consideration when buying a saw, don't you think?
--jonnieboy
Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions!
mg,
Did you make the kayak in the picture?
--jonnieoby
Yep, that's my own creation.
Yep, that's my own creation. Hoping to have it finished for this summer.
Melissa
If you're concerned about the
If you're concerned about the quality of the PM2000, you can always go for a Powermatic Customs PM2000 from woodwerks.com. The Wood Whisperer uses one of these and you can download the Podcast of him unpacking and setting it up. It's mainly still made in Asia, but features a U.S. Blanchard grind top and Baldor motor.
As for made in China, firstly, I'm not sure if the PM2000 is made in China or Taiwan. Anyway, the issue of quality of a made in product is the question of quality control. In China, there is generally no expectation of quality out of the factory, it's up to the company that designed the product to make sure the manufacturing line creates a quality product in the process. In other words, one just can't drop off a set of plans and expect the finished product to come out perfect.
So it comes down to how much does the company that designed the product care about the quality of the product? Look at Apple's product line, they are top notch products and the company spends a lot of time debugging production lines.
Melissa,
My response to you is completely different than everyone else's. I guess that makes them right and me wrong. But if you are a thinking person, here is another way of thinking about your problem.
You are suffering from "Paralysis by analysis". This is caused by reading too much stuff on woodworking and becoming totally confused. You freeze and get nothing done.
The problem is that is woodworking, the best learning is from actually doing, not from reading.
My suggestion is that you not read anything for six months. During that time, just do woodwork. At the end of six months, consider not reading anything for another six months and again, just DO woodwork.
REALLY, you don't need a table saw. I made furniture for seven years without a table saw. Festool now sells what I used all those years, a circular saw and a fence that you clamp to a table. OR you can do it all with hand tools. Wny buy a table saw, when all you need are two hand saws, one for rip and one for crosscut.
Or you can just go to Home Depot and buy a Ridgid table saw, or you can go to Craigs list and buy the first table saw you see at a price you can afford, that actually spins when you turn it on.
There is no "Perfect" tool. Searching for one will only keep you from doing woodworking.
LEARN WOODWORKING BY DOING IT.
DON"T BECOME OBSESSIVE. Right now, you are far beyond obsessive.
Here is an even stronger suggestion. Think about leaving the field of woodwork. No one can do it while obsessing about details as you are doing. Maybe get into psychology as a hobby, and learn about obsession with detail. Maybe become a blogger. You are very good at it.
My definition of a "good woodworker" is: A good worker can turn out masterpieces in someone else's shop."
According to my definition, tools are not important - woodworking is. A good woodworker just accomodates to the tools that are at hand and makes great stuff. That is not hard to do if you have the skills. One gets the skills by actually doing lots of woodwork with lots of different tools.
To my way of thinking, you become a better woodworker by using ordinary tools. Often, expensive tools relieve you of the need to learn the skills that are needed to use lesser tools. So initially, you are better off to use lesser tools - an old craftsman table saw is just fine - if you learn how to use it, and how to do it safely.
HAVE FUN. Stop obsessing. Do woodwork. Stop reading all this stuff on Knots. It can make you nuts. Everyone gives different answers. How can you choose? Worse, almost everyone is nice, and very few, if any, will tell you when you are way off. They would rather be nice, and let you continue on your merry way.
If you are going to stay around here, pay attention to people like Charles Stanford, who doesn't pull punches.
Mel
Hey Mel,
Thanks for your comments. I guess I would like to point out that I built my first boat (8' copy of a sunfish) in my rental basement with all handtools got 2nd hand (I was a starving grad student). For clamps I used cut up bicycle innertubes, sliced up PVC pipe with a slit in the ring, and plastic spring clamps.
It was fun, and I was proud of the boat, but now I make a real salary and dangit I want a tablesaw.
And I find learning about machines fun.
:)
~also go by Mel
Mel,
Glad to meet you.
Mel
What is a finger worth? A link to the first study on non-occupational table saw injuries (i.e. hobbiest) in the US http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100113172150.htm
31,500 ER level injuries per year and, of these, 10% resulted in amputation.
Melissa,
I'm sure you're a
Melissa,
I'm sure you're a good engineer. Your post reminds me of the reports that middle management loved to read to prove that you left no stone unturned in your analysis.
You've just about covered every base except how it feels to use the saw. That is, how easy are they to use, how do they cut. I recommend asking people who have used the saw — other than magazine reviewers about this.
I took delivery this week on my first serious table saw. I now invest in tools as a lifetime purchase. Usually I buy more than I need right now, but I will grow into them. Like you, I plan on passing my equipment along to my three boys who are pre-teen and very interested in anything involving tools. When I did construction work, I would use a coworker's circular saw. He would tie the guard open.
I was totally comfortable at being uncomfortable while using it. This kept me safe. I mention this because as you know from machine design, safety systems don't. Riving knives and blade retractors may fail to prevent an injury and my best safety device next to providential guardianship is the grey matter interpreting all my senses.
I didn't analyze the features like you did. I wanted a cabinet saw. I liked Powermatic, Delta, and Sawstop. I'd be happy with any of these. I bought the Sawstop Professional cabinet Saw. ($3300 delivered with a mobile base, 52" rails and table extension) because I watched a Taunton video the day before I bought and saw a master craftsman missing fingers. When my boys are teenagers they will want to work on projects. I decided I would give them every advantage for safety as I could. I'll teach them the dangers of the machine, but I don't ever want to wonder if I had invested a few hundred dollars more, if they would still have all their fingers.
If you have the money now, go for the lifetime purchase, unless you are unsure how long you will be involved in this hobby. I know nobody who ever said I wish I'd bought a cheaper tool, unless they weren't using the one they purchased.
C,
Wise words indeed. Your post contains some fundamentals for all tool buyers I think.
* Buy the best you can afford. One often hears this but you offer further elaboration: "...grow into them"; "...how it feels to use"; "...passing my equipment along". All of those are good life principles albeit at odds with our current rabid-consumer, fashion-driven, throwaway, pinch-the-pennies society.
* Learn to be safe via experience and actual usage of a tool but don't make the initial learning curve any more dangerous than it has to be. No doubt one will learn a lesson very well concerning TS safety should one cut off three fingers using an unguarded one; or suffer plank-lobotomy via kickback from a machine sans riving-knife. That seems an expensive education.
I would add a third tool-buying principle:
* Where possible, buy a tool that does a complete and fully-competant set of operations. If the operation under discussion is "sawing" then I believe a TS with a sliding cross-cut carriage is more competant and full-range machine than is the unisaw model. Of course, some lads will now say "bandsaw" as this also cuts curves and resaws wide planks. They have a point even though a bandsaw's cross-cutting ability is limited size-wise.
Lataxe
Hey guys, I think I am missing something here about the sliding table feature. I've always made crosscuts with a miter gauge, held the workpiece to the gauge and/or its fence, and slid the gauge forward to make the cut.
To tell the truth I usually feel safer doing this as opposed to ripping because I can stand well to the side of the blade.
My understanding of the sliding table is that one would clamp the workpiece down onto the table in addition to being against the miter gauge and then just move the table.
My naive question is: am I missing something? How is that a whole lot safer? Also, do you guys who have the sliding tables or aftermarket sleds always clamp your work to them? I feel like maybe I wouldn't always take the time to do that...
Thanks,
Melissa
PS: Cincinatti: heh-! 'Leave no stone unturned for the manager's tradeoff study'. You are quite right!
Melissa,
The cross cut action of a TS with a sliding table does away with the need for a mitre guage. The crosscut table includes also a long fence at right angles to the blade (as opposed to the rip fence which is parallel to it).
The crosscut fence and table move as one. The longish planks or sheet goods to be cut to length are registered agin the cross-cut fence. The fence has a movable/lockable stop to position the plank/sheet for an exact cut length. Many have micro-adjust guages built in to this stop so one may cut a plank to length with an accuracy of 0.1mm.
One may also use a hold-down, mounted on the cross cut fence, to provide even more safety, as the plank cannot then skew off the fence. There is little risk that it will skew anyway, if that length-stop is used.
Here is an illustration of mine cutting a 6 foot plank to length:
View Image
View Image
The fence rotates on the crosscut table, allowing mitres to be cut left or right in plank-ends or in sheet goods. If the blade is also tipped, compound mitres may be cut. The fence is very solid so it is possible to cut very accurate mitres with it.
That long gubbins down the side of the saw can be moved about, which means the sliding table and its crosscut fence can be positioned (with various adjuster mechs) so that the table slides exactly parallel with the blade and co-planar with the TS main table. In addition, it can be pulled forward or back'ard so a whole sheet of plywood can be cross cut.
More upmarket versions have a cantilevered supporting arm under the sliding table, to support the cross-cutting of very long and heavy planks. Some also have the sliding table slide right next to the blade, allowing one to strap on a waney-edged board to cut off the waney part and leave a dead-straight edge.
In short, a versatile design and a lot safer/more accurate than a mitre gauge, which cannot handle very wide or long planks/sheet goods and (in standard form) is generally rather too sloppy for really accurately angled cuts.
Lataxe
Hey, thanks for the explanation, Lataxe.
Well, I will probably go on doing what I have been doing, which is to rough-cut planks to length with my circular saw, and use a miter gauge for shorter / cleaner cuts.
Melissa
Hey folks,
Update: Just now ordered my new saw. (Took me a while to mentally prepare to spend the money.... heh heh.) I got the powermatic 2000. Yippee, can't wait!
Melissa
Congrats on the purchase, Melissa. Although I'm a Delta guy, Powermatics are great machines.
Melissa,
May I suggest that you now sidle up to Sarge and get him to repeat-post details of his many enhancements for unisaw-style TS. He has many safety and functional gizmo-designs/practices that you would probably find useful, as many others have in the past.
If only the old forum posts were accessible/searchable, you could just go and get all this Sarge-info. As it is you must coo at him a bit so he will be good to you.
Lataxe
I would rethink your decision to not add a 220V outlet. Going with 220V will open the door to a 3 hp TS option. I purchased an 18" Rikon bandsaw several years ago and added a 220V outlet along with two 20 amp, 120V outlets. I used exposed metal conduit rather than going to the trouble of threading wire through drywall and studs in my garage. Luckily, my circuit breaker box is also in the garage. The cost for everything was around $250 and it took about 6 hours of work. The job was really pretty easy. I wish more of my outlets and tools were 220V because they draw fewer amps. My 1.5 hp, 15amp dust collector sometimes blows even my 20amp circuit during start-up. I've heard tools sometimes pull more amps during start-up.
- Lyptus
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