I just bought my first hand plane. A low angle lie Nelson block plane. Its quite a dream to use.
Now I just have to figure out how to keep it sharp. Ive had different recommendations as to a sharpenning system for my shop.
Some people say Water Stones are the only way to go, otheres a diamond hone…
I need a way to keep my plane, scrapers and chisels all nice and ready to go. What do you guys suggest?
At this point I am contemplating getting a 1000, and 6000 grit water stone and keeping the water stones flat using a piece of glass and sandpaper…
Replies
Hi BF--you are probably going to get a lot of differing, but good advice. Hang on to your original idea unless you read someone's adivce which strikes your fancy as it will work fine.
I wholly use stones, Shaptons in my case. I use to use King-brand waterstones. They are very good stones and very reasonably priced from LV.
Sandpaper alone can produce wonderful results. You can get high grits from nearly anyplace which sells autobody repair stuff--from WalMart to an autoparts store.
Begin without a guide, you'll be better off if you can produce acceptable results. If not, a guide for at least major work on an edge tool such as the side-clampers also available from LV work. As do the more costly versions they sell, which are excellent tools.
Have fun--don't let sharpening become a hassle or stressful.
Mike
btw, my favorite block plane is the little LN bronze 102. When I'm making furniture, it resides in my pocket as I find much to use it on.
Frank,
Congratulations on your first hand plane. IMO you made an excellent choice.
I use water stones for sharpening -- 800, 1200, 4000, and 8000 grit stones, as required -- but don't think that you'll have any serious problems getting a fine edge on your plane irons and chisels with what you have in mind (1000/6000). Just remember to keep your stones flat (it's nearly impossible to get a consistently good edge using dished stones).
If you don't already have them, you might want to take a look at David Charlesworth's sharpening and chisel prep DVDs; they're quite good and have loads of very useful sharpening information, tips, and techniques in them. Rob Cosman's Hand Planing and Sharpening DVD is also very good.
Ian Kirby, Thomas Lie-Nielsen, and Leonard Lee all have written excellent books on sharpening, as well (all the DVDs and books except the Leonard Lee book are available at L-N; the Lee book is available at Lee Valley).
Cheers!
James
i got the lee book at the library. just another option, although i often purchase such books because they remain useful for long periods of time.
Frank,
Being a lazy boy I didn't fancy all that waterstone flattening, soaking and such. Also, they are a bit pricey. Instead:
I do any initial grinding and honing using a Tormek (which is really there to sharpen the difficult profiles on lathe chisels).
I then use that microfine sandpaper stuff used by metal polishers. CSM Abrasives in the UK sell 230 X 280 mm sheets for around £2 per sheet. The grits go from P1800 to P 10,000 in 7 steps. Lee Valley sell similar stuff and also plate glass to use as a flat base.
LV (and I assume LN) planes come pretty sharp and only need a honing of back and microbevel to make perfect. You can get a mirror finish pretty soon with the microfine papers alone. I use a bit of new, flat MDF on the TS table to stick the microfine papers on, with 3M picture mount glue, going from P1800 to P 10,000 via P4000.
If there IS any sign of a not-flat back, I get it flat with the side of the Tormek wheel or with a 600 grit diamond stone. But you can use wet and dry of coarser grits than the microfine, on the plate glass/MDF, to the same effect (or so I read).
A mirror-sharp blade is a lovely thang!
Lataxe
Waterstones are too pricey... but you have a Tormek.
Just had to poke ya on that one. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John,
Now did I ever claim to be consistent and logical? (If I did, it was just another o' them human foibles I suffer from).
I indulged in the Tormek + a jig or two for it when I got a lathe. I looked at the Sorby chisel set I also got and thought - I am going to mess up those curved edges unless I have help. So Mr Tormek had his way with my wallet. I was also in spendthrift mood, having just retired with the legendary lump sum burning a hole in my pocket. (I said I was only human - and somewhat of a poor, peasant-like human to boot).
It would be nice to have the confidence and co-ordination to sharpen entirely by hand on the doorstep, but as I keep saying, I'm only human and perfection is a mystery to me, despite having read Immanuel Kant concerning the Categorical Imperative...... :-)
Lataxe, possibly even sub-human
i kant do it captain!
RIGHT, since Big Franky has not read the many wise answers to his OP for three days, and is now suspected of being a phantom, we may as well have a bun fight.
Question: why is it that all oilstone followers think they are the only ones to use oil stones?
Observation: Tage Frid was in love with his belt sander because it was quickneasy. If someone had shown him a belt grinder he would no doubt have preferred that-since at 1800sfm minimum speed a coated abrasive belt removes metal etc more efficiently than all other means.Tage wa all about speed rather than refinement.
Observation:Yes diamonds are for grills- especially some.Diamond plates were not invogue in the USA in Tage Frids time-otherwise he would have been an instant convert, due again to their speed and efficiency.
Observation:Krenov would also be converted to diamond plates if someone were to persuade him that there was a soul/spirit in them little stones.
Observation: Another icon of note, Jim Kingshott,became a dedicated diamond plate user, (for most honing).
Observation: I would like to observe the speed at which folk would change their sharpening routines/rituals/wardances etc were they to be restricted to the sole use of only one timber- Burmese Teak(Tectona Grandis)- or to a lesser degree, Makore.
Just some random musings ,y'all understand.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I hope you are not allowing reality, logic, experience or any of them other modern ideas to interfere with the Original Sharpening Commandments, that were handed down From On High at the Dawn of Woodworking!!!
People have been burned at the stake for these kind of heresies, the Burmese teak being used for kindling, often in the form of the heretic's own furniture.
As to suggesting that The Saints of WW could ever have changed their minds - well, you are a Shocker, sir, and I must call the Witchfinder General to deal with you. CHARLIE! OVER HERE WITH THE REDHOT IRONS!
Lataxe, with a sore cheek.
Right you are, I hadn't gotten back to the forum all weekend. I was too busy actually working on a cabinet project! Hope y'all forgive me.Anyhoo, I'm finding that this thread hasn't really done much for answering questions.. just made me more confused in the short term. I think perhaps I need to read a book on basic sharpenning.Can anyone suggest a good starting point so that I can get up-to-speed quickly?Frank
The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee is on my shelf and hard to beat.
Regards...
SARGE..g47
Thanks. I just ordered it from Amazon based on your recommendation and the reviews it had.
Quite welcome, Big Frank. I've had it for several years and it's excellent. Not much he doesn't cover on all tools and methods with the exception of sand-paper. Every time you go through the book, you seem to pick up something you missed previously.
As for the sand-paper (scary sharp system), you can pick that up almost anywhere. You need to try all the methods to really know what works best for you and is the quickest, most efficeint method for your style of work.
I think you will feel the book is money well spent for years to come.
Regards...
SARGE..g47
BigFrank,
Sharpening can be an excessively frustrating proposition to say nothing of the cost. Little bits and pieces of the David Charlesworth DVD on sharpening and tuning a hand plane is being shown on http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com and they are fabulous tips.
I may be the only person left who uses oil stones. I have my grandfathers Hard White and Hard Black Arkansas stones and will not use any thing else. The water stones I bought just sit in storage, (I do use the very coarse one to flatten chisel backs sometimes, but not often). I’m all about low tech when it comes to sharpening, the gadget sellers have made a fortune in this racket, but great work was being done LONG before angle jigs, "super duper scary ultra mongo sharp programs", and every other fad, (the jigs are really a waste of time). I grind on a high speed $60 Delta 6” grinder and hone by eye on the oil stones, maybe a strop on an old leather belt, that’s it. I’d rather be cutting wood than fussing over the sharpening bench. And remember, diamonds are for your girl’s finger and sandpaper is for smoothing wood, not sharpening, IMHO that is. Read Krenov's books for great advice on sharpening. Tage Frid ground his tools on a 3x21 belt sander clamped in the vice and his work is second to none.
Well said Napie,,, especially the Frid comment.
I rough grind with 60 grit on glass (rare for me as I don't hone secondary bevels).
Honings are on Norton oilstones.
Napie,
Amen, brother.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Ray, you guys are saying "amen" before the requiem has even begun and Boss Crumpet has not yet given us his traditional five word burst yet....
It is the makings of the seasonal subject.... which is in direct proportion to the number of new fangled devices newly on the market. But still fun you must admit(the talk ,that is).Stay for the after service sustenance.Philip Marcou
philip,
Not much interest here in new fangled things, I admit most freely. All my fangles are old, and I've kept them cause they work for me. Set in my ways? Yepper.
Ray
So there are a few of us left!
When it comes to sharpening, what ever method that works best for you is the best method that works.
Zen Sharpening! Try it today!
I saw an ad for Lee Valley in a WW magazine and they have a honing guide, stone (MKII Cabinetmaker's Sharpening Set) and it sells for $68.50. Item # 05005.03
Looks like a good deal. I almost wish I had seen it before I went with the sandpaper route, although the paper does work well and is fast.
I have a set of good waterstones, and when I have LOTS of sharpening to do (like before a big project, or in the spring...) I will get them out and use them. But as a rule I hate the slurry mess, and I don't appreciate all the water around my tools. Plus I have taken more than my share of divots out of my 4000 grit. I hate that...
My go-to edge maintenance is fine and extra fine diamond plates, followed by black Arkansas or stropping as my mood suits. I toss them on the bench and they are there when desired. If I need more "grinding" beforehand I will use sandpaper, as I leave my tailed grinder for the hoe and shovel.
No doubt that the waterstones cut faster, but for a chisel or two it is not overall faster (for me) to wet them up, sharpen, clean, dry, and oil than it is to hone a little longer on the diamonds.
My 2 cents. YMMV...
Edited 6/30/2006 8:08 pm ET by spf
Frank I have used waterstones with good success, however I don't have time for the flattening hassles so I changed over to a glass platen and wet/dry sandpaper. I buy the sandpaper in bulk which makes this a very reasonably priced alternative. I don't have to worry about stone flatness because the glass platen doesn't change. I get my sharpening done and get back to work. Once you get a repeatable process down resharpening doesn't take very long. I love to use my handplanes especially the infills that I have made for myself, but I don't want to spend more time sharpening that planing, so I prefer to eliminate the chore of sanding stones flat. You may find that over time you may need to resquare edges that get off thru honing. I use a Tormek for this work, however I share the Tormek with another woodworking friend so the cost is half of what it would have been otherwise.
Ron
Please be extremely careful if attempting to flatten blade backs on the side of a Tormek wheel.
I have seen a set of chisels ruined by this method, and do not feel that this likely to produce a satisfactory result
All sharpening methods will produce the desired result, but flat side preparation is the fundamental key. I practically never see flat backs on the chisels which are brought to my short courses.
David Charlesworth
Mr C,
You have got me worried now. (Well. interested at least). :-)
My Tormek is not heavily used and I followed their manual with regard to flattening the sides of the wheel. The chisels and plane irons I flattened subsequently were already reasonable but the Tormek did take the odd small dip out. Subsequent polishing on the micro-abrasives hasn't revealed any score marks or other nasties.
I wonder if the relatively soft Tormek stone is liable to picking up bits of metal or other gritty stuff, if it is more heavily used than mine? If you have info on the underlying cause of Tormek side-of-the-wheel flattening issue, I'd be most interested, not least so I can do what is possible to avoid it.
Lataxe, screwing in a magnifying glass to have a good look at that wheel.
Lat, no need to develope paranoia.If the stone is well dressed you should have no difficulty in getting a good result-and confirming this when you polish with a finer stone which will show up the #@* area if it exists.This long drawn out process of doing boring things by hansd when they can quickly be done by powered means is for the birds.
Soft wheel/stone? Soft is good for hard metals as new grits exposed . The answer to most grinding problems is proper dressing, and if you have not experienced the difference after dressing then there is another thing to look forward to. Also , the difference bewtween a diamond dresser and the old style star wheels and carborundum sticks is a quantum leap- add one to list with sister-in-laws.Philip Marcou
Very glad you have not had a problem.
The chap who brought the chisels to me had created multiple facets and had removed a lot of metal, on the flat side of his chisels.
The general problem with rotating discs is the variable speed of rotation across the radius. Faster at periphery and slower near centre, this relates directly to speed of metal removal. We had similar dificulties with Japanese horizontal stones. Jigging solves most of the problems but freehand work will require great delicacy and control.
As a general rule I would sugest that a coarse static stone is safer and slower, though not bombproof either. We start with 800grit waterstones.
David Charlesworth
Mr C,
Your "differential wheel speed" point is well taken.
Whilst I won't claim to have realised it might be a problem, my instincts did tell me to (a) flatten only on the part of the wheel turning away from me (so no dig ins, to unflatten the stone) and (b) move the blade-back around on the stone-side.
This (and probably the fact that I was removing very little metal from a not-to-bad-to-start-with set of blades) seemed to avoid any "differential" metal removal.
Perhaps the Tormek manual should underline this potential danger though.
PS I also use your "steel ruler" method when honing blade-backs, although I tend to stick a couple of pieces of 0.6mm veneer, rather than a rule, on the MDF on which is stuck the microabrasive. It seems to work the same but with a rather bigger (but shallower, I suppose) back bevel resulting. It certainly does speed up the process. Perhaps I'll try the steel rule in future and it will get even quicker!
****
Philip,
I am glad to hear that you won't be "sharpening" my plane blade on your doorstep, the kerb or a nearby gravestone (even one of the best granite). :-) I know that you are a Master of The Green Button, like moi.
Lataxe, trying not to love machines quite as much - but aren't they quick!
In days gone by, people use to use the sides of large grinding wheels all the time--perhaps source of ill-shaped vintage tools?
In any case, the way I was taught was to apply slightly differential pressure. That is off-centered slightly to the inner-wheel side of the edge tool being flattened. Been doing this for many, many years with exactly zero issues.
I think on a Tormek where the wheel has such a narrow usable band on the original wheel it would be more of an issue than a wheel where there was no recess being one has two edges of stone to worry about gouging the tool.
I also think if one doesn't go overboard with a Tormek, is careful to avoid the edges of the stone from marring the backs, that following up with a series of stones mitigates the issue.
Take care, Mike
Biggy,
These days I use the best DMT diamond plate for most HONING, because it is fast cutting , stays flat and produces a practically fine edge. I use kerosene rather than water.
I was brought up on Norton Bear oils stones and similar-all these are now dormant, because they can't measure up to a good industrial quality diamond plate.
On rare occasion I may be overwhelmed with desire for unreasoning sharpness, of the near mythical sort and I have two antidotes for this. The first is a Kingstone, but again I use this with kerosene. The second antidote is a recently acquired natural black water stone, which has proved superior to all the other natural stones from America, Germany and Greece that are also dormant in my shop. This stone cost only NZ$10, is outsize, does not "drink" water-and is from China.
For GRINDING I use a belt grinder of evil reputation, or a 8" bench grinder, or a horizzontal stone knife grinder for planer knives. The latter is good for a quick touch up,the belt is good for a total re-vamp and the bench grinder is for hollow grinding , should it be wanted.
I use my ancient Eclipse honing guide for honing only, because it is quick and easy to get a consistent result.Other angles required for bevel up blades are another reason for continued favouring of guided honing.It may add 10 to 15 seconds to the process-so what.
I have been sniffing the aroma of some fine timbers for most of my life, but the mythology surrounding sharpening and sharpness continuesto impress /amuse me muchly- I refer you to http://www.shavings.net/scary.htp for a light hearted introduction to the subject-actually it should be a prescribed reference. I think.
Morning Big Frank.. I started sharpening with an Arkansas black stone which was the norm in the 70's. Hard to find these days. Moved to the water stones (King) which can be flattened with a green stone. I believe Sgain Dubh will tell you that they can even be flattened on the face of a concrete block quicker.
Tried the sand-paper route 4 years ago and that's where I currently am. Bought a piece of 16" x 24" tempered glass and had them bevel the edges. I buy the rolls of adhesive backed sand-paper from Klingspors and keep the entire glass plate set up with the various grits. I can go from one to the other quickly that way.
As David Charlesworth mentioned, it is crucial IMO to spend the initial time to take the machine scores off the backs of the iron and get it flat. If you don't, all the effort in the world won't get a keen edge on the front. Once those backs have been put in proper order, just set your desired bevel on the front. At that point, touching up the edge when needed while actually working actually takes only a few minutes.. but generally a few minutes well spent in the big picture.
Regards...
grinder47.. SARGE
I'm also new to sharpening. A while ago I bought a pre-WW2 Stanley #4 plane off eBay. It came in a great condition but the blade was dirty, not sharp, and was ground at a pretty steep angle far from the usual 25. I decided to regrind the correct bevel with.....sandpaper.. Hehehe, I don't have a wheel.Doing that on 180 and 220 sandpaper took a lot f time and effort but it worked. I had old sheets laying around, and when they were used up I finished with some better quality paper that seemed to cut faster. When the bevel was good (and after working a while on the back), I flattened my 1000/4000 waterstone on a piece of 220 wet/dry sandpaper, which was not difficult, and then honed the blade on the 2 sides. In the end, I tried the plane on a piece of walnut and it cut very well, but to tell the truth, I have a feeling I could hev gone directly to the wood from the sandpaper and it would have cut the same, but maybe not. I'm wondering if I will put a secondary bevel just to make it easier to keep it sharp, but at this point I don't think any more fussing with sharpening is needed. I used one of those $14 side-clamping guides. Easy to set.
Morning LeChuck..... if you have flattened the back of the iron.. set the bevel and flattened the base of the plane and are not getting any better results; not much else you can try other than up-grade the blade to higher quality.
The micro-bevel is just an aid to cut down time. Instead of having to do the entire bevel at the desired angle when you sharpen, you only have to deal with that micro tip. The gain is compromised some-what with the fact the micro takes away structual integrity and makes the tip more brittle. Six of this, half dozen of that. :>)
Have a good holiday...
grinder47.. SARGE
No no no, I've got no problems :) Was just commenting on the original poster's question with my limited experience. What I did was fairly simple and it worked out pretty well. Before I started I read tons of information in here and other places and thought that there was a lot more to sharpening than I really had to do. Tuning the tools is ultimately something I want to spend the least amount of time on as long as they perform well.
Now I got you point (duh.. me) LeChuck and I agree that sometimes there is too much anticipated ado to the point that it becomes over-doo.
PS.. gmoney, excellent book by Leonard Lee. Got it in my library and it's a keeper!
Regards...
grinder47.. SARGE
"The gain is compromised some-what with the fact the micro takes away structual integrity and makes the tip more brittle."The micro bevel doesnt create a more briitle tip. Using a 6/8" wheel to grind an elongated bevel does create a brittle tip as more metal is removed on the middle of the bevel. The more elongated the bevel, the weaker the tip. I read a great article about the pros and cons of sharpening on wheel once that suggested the actual angle of the bevel at the tip of the blade is less than desired angle. Cant remember by how much though. If you use a micro bevel, which is a good idea, then take a few extra minutes to grind a flat bevel on a 220 stone. All future sharpenings will involve only the micro bevel. That is untill you reach the heel and have to start over.
You are correct hdgis 1 and thanks for clarification as it has been a long time since I have had to give thought to what I intend to type in a hurry. I had hollow grinding in mind. I don't use a wheel personally for my better chisels as the Ashley Isles, but I do use a micro to reduce touch up time when in use on the bench with both benchies and morticers.
And over the course of years what you purchased as chisels could probably be better referred to as snubbies. But then again the human body shrinks over time. So be it! :>)
Regards...
SARGE..g47
Hi Big,
Hopefully you haven't been completely sucked down into the quicksand pit of hand planes and sharpening. If you still have at least one nostril and an eyeball in the fresh air you should take a few minutes to read James Krenov's, "Making music with a plane" (FWW 126). You'll find it under the Skills & Techniques tab. It won't teach you anything about how to use a plane, but it will help you align your yin & yang. Pay particular attention to what the Grand Master says about sharpening. It will put it all in perspective.
Good luck,
-Chuck
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