I’m frustrated. I’m jointing two boards by planing them together on edge. My jack plane doesn’t seem to get any bite. It’s just running over the top of the white maple. I keep thinking it’s a matter of getting the blade sharp, but am I missing something? My technique with this plane has worked on softer woods. The plane is an older, pretty well kept up Stanley. Thanks, Todd
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Todd,in the past, I fabricated and fitted and installed solid rock maple squash court doors in The Downtown Athletic Club in Manhattan These doors,were three inches thick and assembled like a butcher's block with continous threaded rod bolted through the splined and glued vertical segments
. In 1980, I did have a portable electric plane, but it's capacity was only 2-1/8"
Consequently, I had to bevel the both sides of these 3 foot high 'Hatch ways' My trusty Stanley did the job with a little hard work and frequent re- honing
These doors by design, had to swing out of the court and be perferfectly flush with the interior maple walls.
Being struck repeatedly with determined squash players bodies( 200 lbs and more)they still held up as late as 1996 when I retired . Sharpen your planes iron, take light cuts and dort pland against the grain Stein Also it is very important to attack the stock while the wofk is gripped securely and as low as 28 inches above the floor,. This is a 'Whole body' task. G'Luck ED.
Edited 11/21/2003 12:17:46 AM ET by steinmetz
I get misty when I hear the words Downtown Athletic Club. I was an active member when it closed. I am trying to see if I can get in the building to go get those doors. Sounds like they could be used for a bench of some type. How many were there? I was not a squash player.
Circlekid, If I remember, six. Some were for squash some for handball I also made a wine display rack for the main dining room.
And was there when they admitted Women and was constantly repairing the saunas and hot room doors. My sons and daughters all have DAC sweats (Compliments of the sports director).
I , my son, his wife and MY grand kids were privileged to watch the Bicentennial Ceremony display in New York Harbor from the roof along with only ten or fifteen other guests in 1996.
Great spectacal! Fire boats with water cannons blazing, fireworks laser light show And one guest had a portable radio which was tuned into and syncronized with the Laser display's rhythm. Saw the Heisman Trophy in my sleep for years ever after. Stein.
Edited 11/21/2003 3:29:50 PM ET by steinmetz
Edited 11/21/2003 3:31:03 PM ET by steinmetz
Todd
I just logged on and saw you post. I can't resist asking if you have an iron in it? ha..ha..
I'm sure some the knowledgeable plane guys will come to the rescue, but check a few things. "You say it won't bite and runs over the top of the maple. Just a matter of getting the blade sharp but it works on soft-wood."
Is it taking any wood at all. Even if the blade was dull it would tear the wood and should bite. Have you adjusted the depth so the blade is protruding from the throat. Be careful and use your finger to be sure. Are you setting the toe on the wood before the iron makes contact and keeping downward pressure as the iron meets the wood? At that point the rear guiding hand shouid apply downward pressue on the heel as the iron starts it's slice.
After sharpening the iron, did you install the bevel up by mistake like on a block plane? Bevel goes down on #1 thru #8 bench planes. Looks dumb, but it ain't. Have you looked carefully at the frog to make sure it's seated flush with the throat opening? Is the cap iron screw too loose and allowing the iron and chip-breaker to ride up loosely under the cap when the iron tip makes contact? Have you checked lateral adjustment to be sure the iron is parallel with the throat opening? If it is skewed and you have a very light "showing" of the iron, it might not make positive contact at the beginning of the cut.
And last, make sure you have the boards set up so both have the grain running in the same direction. Then be sure you run your jack with the grain.
Check these things and you should get a cut. I asume you did sharpen the iron. If you don't get results with one of the above, I don't have a da*n clue. ha..ha..
Some the plane guys will give you an assist I'm sure. It has to be simple.. ?? And post when you find the solution. I'm sure curious as a novice myself with these things.
Good Luck...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 11/21/2003 12:16:38 AM ET by SARGE
What is sharp? My experience (limited) is that a plane blade as sharp as a butter knife will work pine (not nicely, but it will). The piece of angelique I've been working with demands razor sharp (shaves the hair from the back of my wrist) and the edge positively gleams like a light saber. When the blade starts to loose it edge it just slides along the top of the angelique. I'll bet it just ain't sufficiently sharp.
Good luck!
Test your iron on your fingernail. If it bites into your fingernail rather then sliding its not sharp enough. Use light pressure and be smart, dont try to cut off your fingernail.
Another option is your plane might not be true and flat. Fettling will cure this.
garrett wade's book The handplane is pretty much a must have for plane users.
Toddhunter,
I'm still a newbie to this planing thing, let me share with what I have learned. About 3-5 morning each week I go down to the basement early and plane wood for about 45 mins to an hour and a half (an aerobic workout). This is rough lumber, usually 6 or 5/4 lots of stains on it. This morning the white oak planed nicely..the maple not so good...my plane blade was too dull. In essence, the harder the wood the sharper the blade needs to be.
Last weekend I bought a second #3 in great shape. In addition to everything else, I sharpened the blade to 4000 grit on waterstones and stroped with the green stuff on leather. I know I'll need to strop a few more times before the edge will be sharp enough for the maple. I grabed my #5 and planed the maple...the blade has been honed several times on hte leather. You can avoid the stroping by going to 8000 grit.....in most situations 8000 grit or 4-6000 and stroping is required to achieve feather like cuts in the harder woods.
If I skew the chisel I may get away with a few cuts with a dull blade....
anyhow, that is what I have learned
a couple suggestions to add to suggestions from the rest:
1) check to make sure the sole is true on the flatest surface you can find/get; 2) hone the blade to 6,000 or better or strope (as suggested by others); 3) angle the plane as you run over the surface; 4) get the depth right, and be careful, once you get close small amounts of adjustment will mean a big difference; 5) make sure the blade is not also skewed in the iron; 6) adjust the blade to the front of the opening, it will help you take smaller lower angle bites -- particularly important on hard maple; 7) make sure the angle on the sharpened end of the blade is correct for the type of plane.
best of luck
Todd,
There's no reason that a plane--even with a fairly dull iron--won't "bite" if the iron is extended enough. Even if the iron is completely blunted it will still scrape the wood and make dust. That you say your jack "doesn't seem to get any bite" means to me that the iron just isn't extended enough.
Even though you have extended the iron properly, it can withdraw itself the moment it touches wood. "Backlash" is when the adjustment devices move without moving the iron: the thumbscrew moves on its threaded shaft but doesn't affect the iron. Backlash is a fact of life with planes; depending on the quality and condition of the plane, the amount of backlash can be great or small.
The way to extend the iron so the backlash won't matter is to always adjust the depth by beginning with the iron not cutting at all, and then extending it until it cuts the right amount. This way the backlash will be in only one direction: the backlash will allow the iron to further extend, but not retract.
As to sharpening your iron: Simply moving up through the grits, no matter how fine the last stone, does not guarantee that the iron is sharp; neither does shaving the hair on your arm--as we know, razors can be extremely dull and still shave hair. The "thumbnail test" is better. But IMHO the "Newton test" is best.
If your iron truly comes to a sharp edge, i.e., it is not dubbed, or rounded over, there's nothing for light to reflect off of, and the edge will appear as a black line. Any reflection at all from the edge, if it appears as a white line or white dashes, means the iron isn't sharp, and needs more attention. (Because of my failing eyes I have to use a very powerful magnifying lens to examine my tools. But most people can see it well enough without magnifiers.)
Other than all this and what others have said I can't think of anything that could be the trouble. I hope you work it out.
Alan
Alan
My curiousity is extremely up as to what is truly meant by "won't bite at all". I posted pretty much what you did that at least if the iron is showing, scrape or tear is going to happen regardless of the sharpness. Suppose he could mean chatter which would skip it across the surface. Still, that takes bite.
This should prove to be interesting at the least as to why??
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks for all the time put into these responses. I'm going to focus on two suggestions. First, I had better use finer grit. I've been going up to 1500 wet/dry sandpaper. Second, I wonder if the iron is sliding back. When set on the wood, it rocks along the blade, so I know it's far enough out, but maybe not when pressure is applied. I tightened the screw holding the iron, but maybe I need to try some more. All the other suggestions I have addressed to some degree. BTW, I am not getting chatter--I wish I was getting some chatter. I get an occasional narrow slice, usually when I tip to the side in exhaustion. And in fact, with the first couple of strokes I did get a cut, but despite many touch ups on the micro bevel, I couldn't repeat the cuts. The good news is I have learned more about how to use my scraper. And my old block plane gets into the wood pretty well, if not too gracefully. Todd
Todd
You are getting a slight slice when you tip it toward the side. Make sure the blade is extended enough and then look at the alignment of the tip in relation to the throat. Is the tip showing evenly across the throat? If not, use the lateral adjustter and move it till the same amount of tip shows past the throat all the way across the throat.
Micro bevel. You have the iron with bevel facing toward the rear of the plane as opposed to a block plane. Is you micro on the tip facing rearward or have you back beveled the side (rear of iron) that faces forward? If you have back-beveled, how many degrees?
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
My micro is on the bottom, along with the main bevel.
Todd,
Be sure the chip breaker is securely attached to the blade - and that it is set 1/16" back from the end on the non-beveled side of the blade. It may be that when you lock down the cap iron, and set the blade depth, that the chip breaker is passing the end of the blade. This would effectively allow it to skate across the wood without slicing into it. Although, if the breaker is honed correctly (yes, this must be done at least once), it has the potential to raise some wood.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Following on from Dan's advice, I usually find that the problems with a sliding backing iron is purely that it's greasy (or the blade is greasy/oily). If this is the case, try wiping down both surfaces with a suitable solvent.
eddie
Todd,
A lot of things can cause this and most of them have been mentioned. Another thing to check is that what ever sharpening medium you're using is flat. Water stones dish quickly and sandpaper will rise ahead of the tool you're sharpening. Both of these cause dubbed edges. When working with a triple bevel like you're doing, it's relatively easy to lose your clearance angle. You can have the bevel of your micro-bevel contacting the wood before the edge.
My advise is to skip trying to plane edges of two boards set face to face. I'd sure like to know where this idea started. Initially, it may sound like a good idea but think about it. It's far more difficult to get a truly straight edge than to keep square to the face. With this method, any deviation from straight is doubled when the two pieces are set edge-to-edge. If you haven't yet developed a technique where you can keep an edge dead square to the face and you're slightly off, all you have is a slight cant between the faces and that's easy planed out. You can't correct ill fitting stock and a poor joint.
You already actually have the skills necessary to plane a square edge. Your natural balance and sense of plumb allows you to carry a full glass of water across a room and that takes as much accuracy as a square edge. All you need to do is transfer the reference surface of the glass to the plane. It's easier with a wooden plane but, if you're right handed, use the fingers of your left hand to guide the plane along while referencing the vertical face of the stock. Wooden planes are nice because their sides provide all the reference you need.
Someone needs to step out and rid woodworkers of the fallacy of planing boards face-to-face. Who ever started this idiocy should have been pummeled the day they first put the idea into print.
Don't the flaws cancel each other out? That's the theory isn't it? When planed at the same time, the boards run along the same line, straight or not.
Todd, they become a mirror image of each other. When put together, if you have a dip in one section, you'll have the two dips opposite each other. This doubles the error.
Good point. But, (not to be argumentative) whether you are planing one or two boards together, you have to remove dips. The advantage of planing together is that it forgives a not-so-square perpendicular. I was wondering if I have a router bit long enough to joint the boards together.
And when you clamp up, your canted edges will slide over each other, unless you are using splines or biscuits.
Larry, I agree that the recommendation to plane two edges at once is just re-enforcing less than desirable workmanship. It goes way back - I first remember seeing it in the hallowed pages of FWW in its early days.
Also agree heartily that getting the edge straight is the harder task - and the longer the board, the more difficult. I've really only realized that since my chronologically-challenged eyes demanded glasses. I have to take them off to sight along a board longer than 3'. Just having to do that is nuiscance enough, but the worst part is that a truly straight edge looks slightly dished when I first remove my specs.
IW
Todd,
You say that you got a "cut" the first few strokes, and then nothing? Aha! That means the iron is somehow retracting. Check your adjustment technique--that you avoid backlash problems by always adjusting the iron by extending it--make sure the cap iron screw is tight; and clean off any oil or grease on the iron, back iron or lever cap. Do not over tighten the hold down screw; it's possible to damage the castings.
Again, I can state positively that sharpening is not (yet) the problem. Again, even if the iron was completely blunted you would get something out of it. That you get nothing means, as above, that the iron isn't extended.
BTW, it may also be that the iron is extended too far if the plane "rocks" on the iron. The iron should be extended just enough, just barely enough, that you can just see it stick out as you look down the sole. A very common mistake beginning planers make is extending the iron WAY too far. (Perhaps it's out so far that it won't cut, it instead gets stuck down in the wood and gets pushed back; and once it's moving it keeps going.)
Todd,
<snip>
I'm jointing two boards by planing them together on edge. My jack plane doesn't seem to get any bite. It's just running over the top of the white maple. I keep thinking it's a matter of getting the blade sharp, but am I missing something? My technique with this plane has worked on softer woods.
<end snip>
Sounds to me as though you've got it in one, especially as this worked on softwood.
Your blade should be sharp enough to take a shaving (not dust) from the endgrain of pine, while leaving a smooth surface with no tearout or blade marks behind on the engrain.
I'd look at sharpening technique.
Attached is a really rough (actual) back of an envelope sketch showing primary, secondary, microbevel to help understand the terminology.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 11/21/2003 10:07:53 PM ET by eddie (aust)
Okay, this is 17 years later but I think I know the issue as I had a similar problem. The bevel angle on the plane has to be the 25 degrees stated by Stanley manufacturers. If it's even a small angle more e.g. 30 degrees there isn't anyway for the blade to cut it just skims the surface. You can add a tiny micro bevel at 30 degrees at the very end but that's not necessary it's just preference.
I had a Stanley given to me that was in great condition that just would not cut no matter what I did, it was only when I took a close look at the bevel angle that I realized it was out by a small degree.
I hope this helps.
I was taught years ago by a very experienced carpenter ( I hate to say master but the closest I ever worked under) to hollow grind my plane irons and chisels and then micro bevel the edges. He said that you could resharpen your micro bevels several times without having to regrind the entire edge. I've been doing this for years but I'm far from a master hand tool person so any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. I make the hollow grinds on a slow speed wet grinder with a guide to keep them straight across the surface and make the micros with a Japanese water stone with a guide.
Another zombie thread arises and walks about the Knots graveyard!
But here is an opportunity to mention the wear bevels.
Both sides of a plane blade are worn by planing wood - one side by the shavings and t'other by the wood surface newly revealed on the workpiece - as one planes along. This happens in both bevel-up and bevel-down blade configurations within planes.
The worn bits either side of the edge are the wear bevels - and these are what cause "blunt".
Much WW sharpening lore suggests that only the bevel side needs to be sharpened to go from blunt to sharp. The flat side is either polished truly flat once by the plane user or, these days, comes from the manufacturer lapped dead flat. "You never need to flatten it again unless it gets badly dinged" goes the lore.
Sometimes (most times) sharpening away the wear bevel on just the bevel side also eats up the wear bevel on the flat side. But sometimes it doesn't.
The lore says that once you have a burr from sharpening on the bevel side, this means you made the edge pointy, the assumption being that the other side of the blade is still dead flat all the way to the edge ..... which it may not be because of remaining wear-bevel on that side. Supposedly, then, all you have to do then is hone (polish) that bevel you just sharpened (perhaps via a microbevel, to reduce the work) then rub off the final tiny burr.
But what if the burr formed before all the wear on the other (flat) side from the sharpened bevel side was removed? This can happen. The edge is not then sharp because sharpness is where two flat planes intersect at an angle until their meeting line is a true "line of points". But some of the wear bevel on the un-honed (flat) side may still be there.
If both wear bevels that cause the bluntness are not fully removed by sharpening, the edge will still not be "a line of points". It will not be fully sharp and is one cause of a blade not wanting to bite the wood but instead sliding over its surface ... or of behaving in a manner otherwise revealing "still not sharp".
It's not the only cause of blade skipping, though.
Aren't sharpening threads good! :-)
Lataxe, channeling Brent Beaching just for Derek C.
Makes perfect sense. How do you suggest flattening the back side. I've seen on the net where people take a very flat surface ( granite or glass maybe) and adhere a fine grit paper to it and then "sand" the iron flat. Any advise would be appreciated.
To the gentleman planning two boards at once to compensate for possible out of square edges I've found when using my jointer(not part of this hand plane discussion I know) that it's best run your two edges to be jointed with opposite faces (good and bad if you will) against the fence as even the tinniest bevel will translate double when you try to mate the edges. If you were to plane them singularly and reverse the faces you should get the same effect as any natural tendency to be out of square should compensate itself.
Mr 7708943
Personally I like those posh blades from Veritas, Lie-Nielsen and similar that come with their backs lapped dead flat. Who wants to spent hours polishing the back of plane blades?
But if you have an older or more wonky-backed blade, perhaps any necessary back flattening should be done as you describe - but rough sandpaper on glass or granite to get it flat rather than mirrored. It needs to be flat to sit right in the plane. It doesn't need to be polished to do that.
But the back of the blade at the edge does need to be mirror polished, if the edge is to be a good 'un. Some rub just the last half inch or so of the back sideways on increasingly fine-grit sandpapers (3M lapping and microgrit papers are tougher for the job than sandpaper or wet & dry) until they get the rough flat area to a mirror polish flat area just on the end of the blade back nearest the edge. You can do the same on water stones if you like getting messy. :-)
Perhaps the most extreme method of polishing only the edge of the back is the Charlesworth ruler trick - a high polish on only a very narrow band of the back along the edge, wrought by canting the middle of the blade up on a thin ruler, when honing the back, to make a very slight and highly polished micro bevel on the blade back edge, typically of only 1 degree or thereabouts.
Myself, I've taken to putting a slightly steeper yet still teeny weeny back bevel on most (not all) plane blades. If sharpening just the bevel of the blade doesn't produce a super-sharp edge, I cant the blade up with a couple of 3mm thick magnets at the other end of the blade from the edge then rub it side ways a few strokes on 1 micron paper to make a back bevel too. It often makes a sharp blade very scary sharp indeed!
For details of that slightly steeper micro back bevel, see:
https://www.fine-tools.com/pdf/sharpening-chisel-and-plane-blades.pdf
Some will find this too much fuss. But it takes only 30 seconds to turn a blade over, clag on the mini magnets and rub that teeny back bevel. Another 10 seconds to drag-strop the edge lightly on leather to knock off any wire burr.
Lataxe
PS Does your jointer produce edges good enough for gluing? Most jointers tend to leave a slightly scalloped edge but perhaps you have super knives that leave a glue-line finish? My jointer-part of the planer-thicknesser I have leaves scallops although the thicknesser (you say planer) part of the machine leaves very smooth surfaces if I keep the straight HSS knives sharp enough. The rubber feed roller help, I think.
I'll try not to bore you but here's my spin on jointers. As we all know it can be a very aggravating machine to set up but if you don't get it tuned in properly it's almost useless. If you're not willing to put in the time (can take hours) don't even bother with one. If you're out of tune you'll either get tapered boards or end snipe depending which way you're out. The cutterhead must be exactly flush with the outfeed table and the tables must be in plane. The scalloping you refer to in my experience is not so much the knives (you want them sharp of course) but your feed rate and depth of cut. I used to take a piece of rough sawn lumber with all kinds of hooks and make a ton of jointer passes listening to finally hear it cut the whole board. Takes forever so you'll tend to have a deeper depth of cut and feed it faster to speed it up and get it over with. I have since built a straightening jig for my table saw. I run the board through the TS with a high quality rip blade and move to the jointer for a final very light slow pass or two to sweeten it. This will get rid of the scalloping. If you purchase a set of magnetic feather boards to use on the jointer top to hold the board tight to the fence you'll never regret it. I examine the boards before doing anything and mark them for grain orientation to help with tear out. Mark your good faces and edges to be joined. Reverse the faces in relation to your joints when you run them through the jointer to compensate for out of squareness that you can get no matter how well you're set up. It doesn't take much to make that joint not come together. This all well worth it (in my opinion) because when you go to do your glue up you need almost no clamp pressure which will help keep your surface flat.
Just a thought: if your iron was overheated and lost its temper (and hardness) you might be able to get it sharp and plan soft wood, but then fail to plane hard wood. Any chance this may have happened?
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