Mythical No Slip Router, please!
AllenLewis
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I will trade both kidneys and my mortal soul to someone who can point me in the direction of a router that uses a hex shank chuck and bits instead of round ones that slip out of the collet EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I have already looked up every last bit of info on how to keep a bit from slipping, but none of it helps, and I’m absolutely sick of it.
I know that a hex shank router probably doesn’t exist (though I cant think of a good reason why*), but even if there is a single unique homemade machine out there that is ABSOLUTELY SLIP PROOF that someone made in there garage, I want it.
Another acceptable solution would be a normal round shank router, but with a locking pin that goes through the shank of the bit to keep it firmly in place. Anything is better than what I have now.
*Good reasons DO NOT include:
– “It’s too expensive/wasteful to make hex shanks.” Oh, yeah? Then why can I get a perfectly good hex shank drill bit for a dollar?
– “If they were any good, they’d make them already.” There are countless good ideas that go unrealized for stupid reasons.
– “There’s some kind of mechanical disadvantage to a hex shank or locking pin at high rpms.” Not if it is well-engineered, I guarantee it.
Please help, before I completely lose my mind.
Replies
Never really had a problem with that, only been using routers for 45 years however.
And why exactly did you feel the need to comment, then? Did I wrong you in some way? I swear, every single time I post a question on the internet it is met with ridicule. If you don't actually have an answer for me... don't answer. But, I guess we all have to do SOMETHING to feel good about ourselves.
Maybe if your posts are always met with ridicule you need to look in the mirror.
Gulfstar happens to be one of the most experienced and helpful members here and you would do well to curb your snarky responses.
As for your problem it is again a personal problem. I have 45 years of using routers with everything from 3" panel raising bits to ⅛" delicate veining bits and have never had a problem with a properly installed and tightened bit slipping. Given the shear number of commercial and industrial users who use round shafts and collets everyday without problem I suggest you humbly rephrase your question.
The real question is: I am having a problem with router bits slipping what am I doing wrong?
Assuming as mentioned below you are fully seating the bit then pulling it out slightly before tightening, other possible causes: using low quality bits with improperly sized shanks, using ¼" shank bits in a 8mm collet or a 12mm shank bit in a ½" collet, rusted or worn bit shanks or collet.
Because somebody has to check the "did you turn it off and on again?", are you sure you're tightening the collet enough (this includes that the collet itself is functioning properly and tightens as it should)?
First, don’t post on the internet if you can’t take some heat.
Second, you’re likely seating the bit too far. Insert the bit until it bottoms out then back it out an 1/8” or so. Consider how a collet works. If it has an obstruction keeping it from tightening completely, you’ll have problems.
These tools have been around a while and believe it or not, most manufacturers want you to have good results and not get injured. Routers run at a very high rpm. People much smarter than us have decided pins and hex shanks aren’t good. If you think no one considered those options then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Round is round and the last thing you want is runout on your router. I can see problems with a hexshaft on a router bit. But since it's a moot question -when you install a router bit lift it slightly so that it doesn't bottom out in the collet. I have used ,and been criticized for using threadlocker on router bit shafts , and so what , it works for me. The blue stuff, not the red or black. To me the work and the wood carry more value than the bit or even the router. I have had bits pull loose and ruin something that maybe took several hours to get to that point. I don't use the thread locker everytime but when I see a situation that I know it is going to require a lot of torque( big bit- big cut) or a particularly valuable or irreplaceable piece of wood I will use it. The bluestuff removes from the shaft pretty easily. I have plenty of routers and some have dedicated bits more or less permanently installed, chamfer, round over etc. I glue them in so that I can just grab the tool and not think about it.
I'm not trying to be rude here but I have never seen this problem either or heard of it using everything from a very cheap Craftsman router many years ago to Porter Cable, Bosch, Milwaukee etc. Besides Nick93's comments, two things I could ask. I have heard that if you seat the router bit all the way to the bottom of the chuck, it can prevent the collet from tightening properly. I don't know that this is true, but I never seat the bit completely. An 1/8 of an inch is plenty of clearance so the bit is nearly fully seated but not quite. The other thing I could think of is do you apply an oil or grease to the collet or bits to prevent rust that would cause them to slip. I think this is a long shot but I suppose it could happen. Machine shops tend to be very oily places and collets are used without problem there all the time so I doubt that a thin film would cause slippage but maybe it could.
I've probably got 6 routers, and have never had a bit slip. You could just have a faulty collet.
But the answer is not a hex Shank bit. When it spins at over 20,000 rpm, you want it perfectly balanced, and you aren't likely to get a hex Shank bit balanced to the degree you need.
Wishing for a unicorn won't make one appear. Wishing for a unicorn with replaceble hex-shank horns that can spin at high RPMs is even more farfetched. Asking to trade a kidney for one is an open invitation for online mayhem. (What's your blood type? We need more details here.)
There is something wrong with your system or your workflow. I'd suggest temporarily "forgetting" everything you have learned. Buy a book on router basics, and start from scratch. You'll probably slap yourself in the forehead when you find it.
I can relate to being very frustrated with a basic process and taking every avenue to fix it before finding the very obvious solution. Starting from scratch and getting a book is good advice. If you are in a city with a community wood shop they might offer a class on router use which could be really helpful as well.
Does anyone hear that sound? It's faint, but getting louder. Yes, it's Ben's head, exploding.
Five routers Hitachi, PC (2), Ridgid trim, Dewalt. Only time I had a problem is when I did not tighten properly. Once. This included use in the router table. No idea why the original poster had the issue. Bad collet??
My first router was a very economical Craftsman that had the same problem. I unsuccessfully tried numerous things to get it to hold the bit.
The router was given away, the problem went away, and the problem does not exist with any of the additional routers I have purchased.
Once again the most economical tool was the most expensive way go as it needed to be replaced with a higher quality option.
Please appreciate that others on this site were still willing to help you out regardless of your argumentative #*!! attitude.
You can learn a lot from these guys.
I think it's a good question, that I've thought about myself. I had two routers with the same problem. One Bosch trim router, and a PC 690. I have others of the same model without the problem. I replaced the collets and they were OK. I had one spiral bit that would pull itself out of the collet when hot no matter how tight it was. I threw it out. Replacement was fine.
And maybe the answer to the "why" question is because they'd have to redesign and manufacture new collets and maybe other parts of the routers to accommodate hex shanks or retaining pins. But the balance issue at >20,000 RPM (much more than a drill press) might be right.
Or maybe it's because there are already a zillion round-shaft bits already out there, and the compatibility issues would be too expensive to deal with.
PS one of the tips I read somewhere was to put a spaceball in the bottom of the collet to keep bits from bottoming out. I've not d0ne that yet, but maybe will try.
Those are two quality routers so I would suspect the bits before the routers. The market of noname bits available for sale has reached epic proportions. I am always skeptical of the quality control of these bits and wouldn't touch them with a 10ft pole. Stick to quality manufactures like Whiteside, Amana, Freud, Jessem, etc.
I have a Milwaukee that I use mainly in a router table. Never have had any problems with loose or slipping router bits. Until a recent project that required putting the motor into the plunge base and use it to cut some mortises to a particular depth. Of course, the bit slipped and caused the mortise depth to be cut deeper than I wanted. No idea why. Removed, cleaned, re-tightened and it happened again. Now that the project is completed, it hasn't happened since. ??? Obviously something to do with the plunge base. Right? ;>)
It's possible the bit did not slip at all. But the depth of cut would increase if the base "plunged" on its own.
No. It was against the turret stop to cut the depth in steps.
In the early days of my woodworking career about 40 years ago, I had this problem fairly frequently. I cleaned the collet socket, collet, and bit shaft with a solvent like WD-40, then lubricated all with a very thin spray lubricant. This allowed the collet nut and collet to move against the the other surfaces and allowed a tighter connection. I haven't needed to do this in many years, but do pay attention to all parts being clean and dust free. I also lay the router horizontally on the work bench and put one wrench against the bench top and lean on the other. Not just pulling one toward the other in mid air. And I set the bit only almost all the way in; if it is all the way in, it can prevent the collet from moving all the way into the socket as the nut is tightened. Yep, if there is still a problem, the collet could be worn or defective.
Good luck!
So, there are people that have had a similar problem! In production, such as lap joining a truck load of 20 ' boards, one tends to go all in to get it done. The router gets hot, the bit gets hot , the bit is not as sharp at the other end of the project as when you started. Or your using a very large bit such as a sash bit. I made all my own windows and your cutting front and back with two very different cutter heads at the same time. You hit a knot and it can drag the bit out a little or even a lot. These things happen and can wreck a piece. If this is a constant problem for you though there may certainly be a problem with your equipment.
Judging by his original post I would say that Allen was in a state of great frustration when he posted and responded. Hopefully that has passed and he can get some help from the thread.
When only a small fraction of a percentile of something is happening and it is happening to you "EVERY SINGLE TIME" you need to realize the common denominator. I think the suggestion of forgetting everything you thought you knew about your routers is a good one. Something has become cemented in Allen's methods that buys him a seat in the "small fraction of a percentile" section and he needs to break that "thing".
.. and with assuming it would be realistically cost-effective for router-bit companies to offer hex-shanks without pricing themselves out of the consumer market.
Could it be that the author is using European standard bits in a US standard collet ?
Could be, if he's getting his bits from a single source. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME remember. Perhaps he using some odd Canadian millimath bits.
Is there a diff between EU and US bits? Never heard of one. What are the collets called out as in MM? US is 1/4" & 1/2", I'll have to hit the Lee Valley CA site to poke around.
Hey, we are bilingual but when it comes to woodworking tools, wood and material, we are on the imperial system. By the way, I also measure 6,2 and weight 210 and buy my plywood and Sheetrock in 8 X 4. The air temp is 20 degrees C but water temp is 70F to be comfortable. But in the UK and the rest of Europe, they have 6, 8 and 12mm router bit shanks.
Maybe a product for the OP to consider: https://www.rockler.com/quick-change-musclechucktrade-musclechuck
Product website: https://musclechuck.com/
No affiliation.
“[Deleted]”
Might need a new collet as mentioned by one poster. Elaire Corp. has replacement collets for some routers:
http://elairecorp.com/routercollets/
I've had router bits slip. It was always related to a dirty/rusty shank or collet. I've gotten into the habit cleaning the bit and collet when changing bits. Haven't had a slip since.
What brand are you using? I had a craftsman and harbor freight years ago that were terrible to tighten. I had to use 2 wrenches on these. Was a real pain. They are both gone. The dewalt is much better with the push button thingy. It gets stuck with sawdust sometimes and I have to clean it. And my bits get frozen in there probably the moisture here. But never have I had a loose one. I just got a Bosch 1617 recently for plunge work. It’s the best so far as it comes with 2 wrenches and it’s probably the easiest to get a solid grip with. The dewalt on the table is great and I think I’ll like this Bosch 1617 for plunge cuts.
Even if you could find a hex collet and bit router, where would you buy the bits? It’s a colossal pain to have to what for shipping. I live on an island, waiting for parts is a way of life…still sucks tho.
Aside from the industry has spoken, industry standard argument (which is huge). A manufacturer would have a devil of time making balanced router bits for 24k rpm as well as engine internals. Then it would only work with how many brands? I’m not arguing there isn’t a better way but it would most likely be cost prohibitive.
I had a HF router that did the same thing and is now trash. Never an issue with any other router.
Not saying this is the problem, but bottoming out a router bit in the collet can cause the bit to come loose. When I first started woodworking, I never knew that until one day I was reading and came across this basic router information. It never occurred to me because and I mainly learned about woodworking through doing the work and reading. The vast resources of the internet were not available in 1976.