Hi
i am looking for a good dove tail saw. Saw a reference to Mike Wenz’s saws the other day and am interested. Does anyone out there have link to their web site and/or recomendations as to which saw to get for dove tails in hardwood.
thanks
Roger
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http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html He's a good man with good saws.
Lie-Nielsens are about the same price and have pleased many a woodworker.
rog,
You got good advice from Handrubbed. Mike W not only turns out great saws, but he is also a nice guy. (I don't get a cut. :-) Get it? "get a cut" from a sawmaker. Ha Ha)
The question of which saw to use for dovetails is one of the most often asked on Knots. It will always be a valid question, but it is harder and harder to find "interesting" answers. Let me try.
When baseball players warm up in the batters box before getting to the plate, they put weights on the bat, so when they actually get to the plate with just the bat, it seems "easier".
If there is a way to transfer that wisdom to woodworking, it would be to find a saw that you could use to practice making dovetails which actually makes it easier to cut dovetails when you get down to business.
I have the answer. It came from Tage Frid. Look at any of the photos of him cutting dovetails and you see him use an old bow-saw. I suggest you buy a bow-saw and use it to learn to cut dovetails. Then whatever saw you actually use to cut the dovetails, it will seem like a fantastic saw, compared to the bow-saw.
One of the problems of asking for advice is that people who you don't know actually give it to you, and you can't tell if they are kidding. Heck, I am the one who gave you this advice, and I can't tell if I'm kidding. I may just go out and buy a bow-saw and try it out.
The other person you could ask advice to is Ray Pine. He goes by the handle of "joinerswork". Ray is a professional woodworker, so he doesn't have time to mess around. Like Mike W., he is also a very nice guy. So what does he use for cutting dovetails? An old gents saw.
Given what Tage used, and what Ray uses, please let me know when you determine what the best dovetail saw is.
Meanwhile, have fun, and keep an open mind. I was only half-kidding. Psychologists have an interesting test. They give you two pots of water. One is hot and the other is cold. Then they give you a third pot which is at room temperature. Put your left hand in the cold water, then take it out and put it in the room-temp water and the room -temp water seems warm. Put your right hand in the hot water. Then remove it and put it in the room-temp water, and it feels cool. NOTE that the same water feels differently to you based on your past experience. The same phenomenon holds true for everything else. So to feel good about any tool you buy, be sure to use a lousy tool before you buy it.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
rog,
as long as my last response was, I forgot to give you two more thoughts.
1) Look up the recent thread, entitled "Dovetail Saws???? " in the Hand tools folder. Lots of good stuff in there.
2) Derek Cohen is as good a woodworker as there is. He, like Ray Pine, uses a gents saw for dovetails in some hardwoods, and an old dovetail saw that he bought cheaply for the rest of his dovetailing. His post is in the other thread that I mentioned. He claims that he is very fussy. As good as his results are, I can believe that. He re-tuned his gents saw and his old dovetail saw to his own specifications before they became his "users".
I was blown over when I found that two of the worlds' best professional woodworkers use gents saws for dovetailing, and that Tage used the bow-saw.
Derek's message in that other thread is VERY GOOD. He says that he continues to read about the newer innovations in tools, but that he focuses on "skills", and not on the latest innovations.
BUT, given all of that, what is the best dovetail saw to buy now? My answer is not interesting, but the rationale is. My answer is the Lie Nielsen. My rationale is that you can buy it, use it until you are satisfied that you have mastered it, and then if you don't like it, you can sell it on Ebay for 80% of what you paid for it. Even better, if you call Lie Nielsen, I'll be they will tell you they will give you your money back within a year if you are not satisfied. That's a hard deal to beat.
Please realize that I am not saying the LN is the "best" way to go. I am merely saying that you can try it out very very cheaply.
When I get rich, I am going to buy one from Mike W, one from LN and one from Adria, and hold my personal contest. That is going to be fun. The only problem is by the time I have the funds to do that, I may be too old to hold the saws.
Enjoy.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi all
Thanks for the info. I was on Mike Wenz's web site and I think I will contact him for a dovetail saw later this week.
I have seen the LN saw demo'd at the Ottawa wood show for a few years now. It is a beauty but I get real bad vibes from the sales person doing the demo. Reminds me of a snake oil salesman.
Whatever saw I buy, I am not naive enough to think that it will turn out perfect dovetails on the first try. This is where confidence in the sales person counts. I can just see myself down in the shop saying "I knew that guy was going to screw me"
I get good vibes from Mike. He is often on these pages trying to help people out for the simple purpose of being helpful.
This really impresses me when it comes to buying tools.
Roger
Rog,Wise choice. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Roger,
Are you talking about Rob Cosman?
Andy
Andy
That would be him
Roger
You wrote "I am not naive enough to think that it will turn out perfect dovetails on the first try." I did, why can't you? It ain't that hard, man! The most difficult part is keeping the cuts on the correct side of the marks after you have put them in the right places beforehand. If you need some very clear instruction, get your hands on issue #2 of FWW. It is one of those articles that keeps me subscribing.Cadiddlehopper
Edited 9/18/2006 8:45 pm ET by cadiddlehopper
Zona, if you don't feel like spending much money. Throw it away and buy a new one when it gets dull.
I've cut oodles of dovetails with the $7.50 Stanley saw (gent's pattern) that you can buy at Lowe's and Home Depot.
One you get used to something, even if it's cheap, you have a tendency to stick with it. Nothing succeeds like success. Confidence is instilled when you use a tool you've had success with.
Edited 9/18/2006 1:07 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I never was going to mention this on this forum but since you opened the door,....another thing about the cheap $7.50 (mine was $11!) Stanley that you can buy at the big boxes is that it is good to practice sharpening and modifying the set on,...you can make it a LOT sharper than as-purchased, and at that price and you don't have to worry about messing up an L-N or Adria with poor or experimental/ learning technique. Even on the 15 ppi, the teeth are long and well-defined and easy to work with - I suspect the the angle of the gullets as purchased is less (slightly more acute) than 60 degrees. It is also cheap enough that you can cut the handle off, make a different handle that exactly fits your hand, with the angle of hang that you like, etc., etc. Brass split nuts are available everywhere you look and there is an infinite number of patterns and styles of handles, totes, grips, whatever you call that. Of course I'm one of those geeks that likes making and modifying tools as much or more than making furniture or wooden boats with them,...
If I could post a picture I'd post a picture of my hardware store Stanley with dogwood open pistol-grip handle but I seem to have lost my ability to post pictures with my new computer and internet security software. I use that saw as much as the L-N or Adria, one or both of which I suppose I'll wind up giving away someday to youngsters with the woodworking bug.
I disagree with the poster who said half-jokingly that you should practice with the difficult saw so that the real thing is easier. I think that sawing to a line, like hitting an 88mph baseball or playing guitar, is all about muscle memory and thus you should practice with the girl that you're going to the dance with. I think that the reason that baseball players use the iron weights on the bats is to warm up and get blood flow going to the muscles that they're going to hit the ball with,...
Random thoughts on a rainy day,..
Ed,
I read your message. I applaud your generosity. You said that you are going to give away your LN and Adria saws to a youngster interesed in woodwork. I AM THE YOUNGSTER! I am only 63, and am very interested in woodwork. Please get back to me, and I'll send you my mailing address.
It really was good to read your message. We need more fine woodworkers like you!:-)
MelPS - sure would like to see a photo of the saw you modified. Also, it would be fun for you to write to Derek Cohen. He did the same thing. He says he is fussy about the set and the sharpness. He gave some info on how he modified the set. I would like to learn how to tune saws. Your idea of playing with a cheap gents saw is a great one. Why don't you write to Derek and find out the specs to which he set and sharpened his. Then post a message for us which gives both his specs and yours, along with some comments. Then those of us who are willing to give this a shot can learn from what you and Derek have already done. It is good to be in the company of insightful and creative woodworkers like you and Derek. I can't wait to see if you send me the LN or the Adria. PPS - I am the guy who suggested using the Bow-saw to learn dovetailing. I have never used a bow-saw. Just looking at the photos of Tage, I still can't believe it is possible. I want to learn to use the bow-saw to cut dovetails just for the fun and the challenge of it. Tage wasn't a dumb guy. He must have known something that made him use the bowsaw. My belief on dovetail saws is virtually identical to yours -- almost anything will work so don't just go out and buy something expensive. I was applauding the fact that Derek Cohen and Ray Pine both use Gents saws. Now when I make that list, I'll add your name. I went the dozuki route, but in time, I plan to give the bow-saw, the gents saw and the western saw a good test, and see what differences I can tell. Have fun!Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yes, I was inspired and influenced by Derek saying that most saw handles looked like they were done by a machine. Mine is contoured for both the web between the thumb and index finger and where the little finger goes when it wraps around the handle. Believe it or not, my thinking was also influenced by some book on the golf swing that I read long ago that said something like you should hold the club with the middle of the grip like you were holding a live bird and apply directional control with the outer part of the grip. Never helped my "grip it and rip it" golf game much, though,...I still haven't gotten the saw exactly perfect, yet, but close. Drawback of the Stanley is depth of cut, but you'd have to be doing some awful big dovetails, like, for instance for a workbench top, to use all of the depth. Good luck, Ed
Edited 9/18/2006 4:37 pm by EdHarrison
Frid modified a crosscut blade to a rip profile. He did not use a coarse rip blade to cut dovetails.
If you get the Putsch saw from Highland Hardware order the 9 ppi rip/joinery blade and you'll have basically what Frid used. You could order the crosscut blade and re-file it rip, but the joinery/rip blade will work. It works very well for tenons. The Putsch frames are rough - not nearly as nice as the ECE which sell for about $100. ECE makes a 9 ppi rip blade too - Eddie Sirotich at Adria is a distributor for ECE. You have to buy the crosscut saw in the ECE version and order the 9 ppi rip. The 9 ppi rip will not fit the ECE rip bowsaw - it's too short. The ECE rip bowsaw takes the 5 ppi blade only and no other ECE blades will fit it (except maybe the Japanese toothed blade).
Confusing, but visit the Adria site and you'll see what I mean.
TaunTonMacute,Thank you very much for the information about Tage Frid's bowsaw and blade, and for the information about the bowsaws of ECE and of Putsch. I will keep your message for the day when I purchase a bowsaw, and I will take your advice. I will look up the websites you mentioned and study the issue.Your message to me is a good example of the worth of Knots. I would have "wasted" a lot of time and money learning what you told me in your message. Thank you for letting me profit from your accumulated knowledge and wisdom.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, fwiw the Putsch bow saw (frame saw) is sold in the Highland Hardware catalog as the "Continental Bow Saw" (or maybe "frame saw") but you'll see the word "continental" for sure.
What saws do you need in your operation? I've got some excess stuff lying around.
TaunTonMacoute,You asked: What saws do you need in your operation? I've got some excess stuff lying around.Thank you for giving me more credit than I am worth. I am an avid and serious woodworking hobbiest. I am not it the business. I enjoy woodworking. The furniture that I make is not nearly as important as the joy I get out of learning new skills and techniques, and helping others who want to learn those things that I already have. I am 63. My wife and I have raised three great kids. They are all through school, have gotten married and have good jobs.So what is my "operation"? I have a shop in my basement. I select or design each new piece that I make so that it will require me to try a few things that I haven't done before. I enjoy learning alternative ways of doing the same thing -- like dovetailing. I enjoy learning to use new tools. Thus my interest in the bowsaw, the Western saw, the dozuki and the gents saw. Up til the past year, I have relied 100% on machines. Now I am stretching to try hand tools, and I have had my eyes opened. I thought handcut dovetails would be very very difficult. Actually they can be less difficult and time consuming than the use of store-bought jigs. Unfortunately my lust for learning about new tools exceeds my funds to acquire all those tools. I recently started a thread on rabbet block planes versus shoulder planes to see in what order I should try to acquire those tools. I got recommendations for the small, medium and large LN shoulder planes as well as the LN low angle block plane. Others said that rasps work just as well. It would take more than $600 to buy those tools, and that is just not in the cards. As a result of that thread and this thread, I have learned immensely about specific types of saws and planes. Invaluable! When I come across these tools in the future, and have a chance to get them at a reasonable price (and at a reasonable pace), I am better prepared. Thanks for asking about my operation. I have been a woodworker since about 1968, and hope to be doing it for another thirty years. I hope this message answered you. Sorry it was so long. Please answer this message with a response just to me, and I'll answer via regular email. If you have a few tools that you have gotten your use out of and are ready to sell, I'd like to correspond with you. Do you live anywhere near Virginia? Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
I like a person who seeks a fresh challenge each time! So my suggestion should just be a natural goal for you - why don't you rebuild an old saw into something special?
I don't have many backsaws compared to some - I've added a few since this picture was taken. Here are 14" and 12" crosscut tenon saws, LN and John Cotterill dovetail saws, and the Crown gent saw I mentioned earlier.
View Image
Here is an example of rebuilding a saw - replacing the handle on a old 50/60s Spear and Jackson (in this case to use as a 10" crosscut). I think Phillip could say lots about this particular saw.
View Image
I did have a go at making a bowsaw for dovetailing. It is small and light (11" long blade). The 6 tpi blade was from a bandsaw. Although the teeth were few, it cuts quite well and I have successfully made dovetails. But I don't like the balance for dovetailing - too top heavy.
View Image
Incidentally, there was not much tuning required for the Crown gent saw - there was too much set on one side (when it cut it pulled in that direction). The solution is to run the side ONCE along a diamond stone. Then try it again. Do more it required. Do the MINIMUM at one time - you cannot replace metal. This is an easy fix that ALL can do. I removed too much from the John Cotterill, then had to reset the set. Ditto, this is an easy skill to learn.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 9/18/2006 9:59 pm ET by derekcohen
Derek,Thank you very much for the photos of your tools, especially the ones you made and/or modified. I am in awe! I believe you can tell from my recent Knots posts, that you have influenced me greatly. I wish I had more hours in the day. My work proceeds slowly, and you have given me more ideas for new projects than I can do in a long time. I will never become an electricity-hating Neanderthal, but my love of and appreciation for hand tools is growing rapidly. I have much more of an interest in, and less fear of "messing with metal". I sincerely doubt that Mike Wenzloff and his sons have anything to fear from me in the way of competition. I will find someone here in the Virginia / Washington, DC area who can give me some lessons. The next time you get over to this side of the pond, you are invited to a barbeque at my home. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Email sent.
Hi Mel,
Along with the other bow saws mentioned by other posters, Crown Tools makes one that goes for about $60; it has IIRC a 12" rip cut blade, but I don't remember the TPI (looks like about 10 or 12). Nice little saw for the money.
You could also build your own. If you're interested, I can send you several sites that have instructions for building both bow and frame saws; most use a band saw blade for the cutter.
Bow saws are pretty fun tools; haven't tried to cut dovetails with mine yet, but it does a pretty nice job on curved cuts. When you get/build one, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun exploring what it can do.
Great thread, once again!Tschüß!
Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!!!
James
James,Please do send me the websites for making a bowsaw. Why buy what you can make? If it doesn't turn out well, I can still buy. Here is a side thought that I think you would get a kick out of. I work for NASA. These guys are a great group of engineers. I heard of an old piece of NASA humor. Back in the early days of NASA when the Von Braun and his buddies came over from the old country and settled at Marshall Space Flight Center (Alabama), there was an interesting fusion of languages and dialects. At meetings of folks from all of the NASA Centers, you could tell when the Marshall folks were around. You would hear phrases like "Achtung, y'all!" (For those few of you out there who are not fluent in German, that means "Attention, everybody!)Looking forward to those websites. Making a bowsaw will be an interesting project, especially since we all saw the one that Derek Cohen made. I am not ready to play one-upsmanship with Derek, but I'll see if I can make the design interesting as well as useful. Enjoy,
Mel
PS - you are right. This has turned out to be a great thread.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Howdy Mel!
Here are some of the sites:
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/bowsaw.html (this one has about a dozen additional bow saw site links)
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/wwbowsaw.html (bow saw)
http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/frame_saw.php3 (frame saw)
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_416.shtml (frame saw)
http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk/everyday_life/work/1750-1820/TL.0118/ (late 17. century carved bow saw -- cool picture!)
_____
<<"Achtung y'all!">> What a hoot!! That is too funny. Reminds me of the spoof Ernie Kovacs did on the Lone Ranger (in German) where Tonto approaches the Lone Ranger and says (with a totally straight face), "Guten Tag Kimosabe!"
<<I work for NASA.>> Cool. My wife works for a USAF organization that has a launch scheduled for later this year, so I might get the chance to go to Cape Canaveral and witness a live launch. That would be too much fun!!!
_____
Haven't gotten around to making a bow saw yet (I'd like to make both a smaller -- 6 inch -- and a larger one -- 20 or 24 inch), but have made a frame saw. It was fun to make (I dovetailed rather than M&T'd the frame); it works ok, but still needs some tweaking. Anyway, it's a fun and relatively simple project.
Hope the site links have what you are looking for.
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 9/19/2006 2:22 pm by pzgren
Pardon me for jumping in, but here are some shots of a bow saw I built this past year. It's not all that great for dovetails, but it does work well for general purpose cutting. I would caution anyone considering buying the "Turbo Cut" Japanese style blades being offered by a number of vendors to consider carefully the aggressive cutting action of these. I bought a couple of them and found them much too aggressive and "choppy" in their behavior. After being dissatisfied with several vendor's offerings (including the Highland blades), I cut down an old (not collectible) Disston hand saw for a couple of blades. Those have worked much more smoothly. It did take a while to cut the teeth though...Cliff
Cliff,
Thanks for the heads up on the blades.
BTW real nice saw!! Beautiful wood. Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Cliff,
Please do not apologize for jumping in and being so helpful. Thank you for jumping in, for putting in the photos of your bowsaw and for the info about the Turbo Cut blades. I hope you don't mind if I keep you in mind when I start making my bowsaw, and contact you with questions. I am rather new to toolmaking so I may have some naive questions. I am not about to cut my own teeth in a blade. That is for later. So if you were to buy a blade that you could use in a bowsaw for dovetailing, which one would it be? With that as a start, I could size the rest of the saw to fit.Your bowsaw is beautiful. Great figure in the curley and birdseye maple. Nice styling.What material do you use at the top for the "twine" or "string"?What can you tell me about the joint between the two vertical pieces and the center horizontal piece? How did you join them? Is it a "hard" joint" or is there a wiggle in there? By tightening the top, the blade on the bottom is stretched, but I don't know if those two joints have to have some wiggle room to allow that to happen?Any advice you can provide is much appreciated.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,Thanks for the comments, they're much appreciated.I sized my saw for the turbo cut blades that Highland sells for the "Classic 400" saw that they sell. Here's a link:http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=6045The length of the blade you buy isn't real important; you can easily cut down a longer one, or construct an additional stretcher piece for the saw to accommodate different sizes.After trying out the "Turbo" blades, I bought a couple of the Putsch blades from Highland, but they were much thicker than I wanted, and had excessive set to the teeth.The joints at the ends of the stretcher are simple stub tenons and mortises. There is no glue; it's just a snug fit. That makes it easy to make additional stretchers if you want to use different length blades. I have seen bow saws constructed with a matching radius where the tenon shoulders meet the mortises; I think it's a waste of time because in use there's not enough swing between the parts to matter. The wood does flex just a bit when you tighten the cord, and that seems to accommodate any movement between the pieces.The twine I used is 40 year old flat nylon lacing twine that was originally intended for electronics wiring assemblies. It was in my junk drawer, it is still plenty strong, and it's worked well for the application. I think almost any good grade of twine would do as well.Cliff
Cliff,
Excellent. Thank you very much. That answers my questions. I appreciate hearing your experience with Putsch blades, and how you settled on the ones you now use (Highland classic 400).
I learned a lot from you.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
CD. I have a bow saw on my radar screen, the wood is no problem or the turned handles. How do you do the mounts-machine stainless bolts cut them off and insert hardened spring pins- no problem to me unless there is a better way? How to hole the blade stock- I have a Whitney punch- do you drill it? For the blades I have an old 24"+ Disston back saw as a good saw plate (non collectable) or I was thinking of some wider band saw stock from Suffolk Machinery that I may re-shape but only for set or flat rip depending on what they have. I currently file and set all of my American full size saws(Disston/Atkins etc) Thanks for the info, Pat
ps. nice saw, beautiful wood, those hot wires make real nice detail lines on handles eh. pfh
Edited 9/20/2006 10:33 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
PADDYDAHAT,The blade mounts I made are somewhat unusual. The shafts started as 3-1/2" bronze carriage bolts, a good quality type with smooth (not threaded) shank for about 2". The sides of the heads are cut off, leaving a square cross section at the end of almost 1/2". That section is drilled and tapped crosswise for a #8 screw to hold the blade, and then the square section is slotted from the end to allow the blade to slip in.At the other end, where the shaft passes through the vertical part of the saw, I needed only about 1-1/4" of smooth shank, so I cut the threads farther down with a die. What's a bit unusual (and invisible) about this saw is that both the vertical standards and the handles have threaded brass inserts. These allow the blade hold shafts to be adjusted somewhat for varying blade length, and they make it possible to lock the shafts to prevent blade rotation when it's not desired. The handles are simply tightened down like a jam nut against the body of the saw.So far I'm pleased with the results; the saw cuts very nicely and is comfortable to use. I doubt I'll ever use it to cut dovetails, but it's certainly a viable option for resawing and cutting curves (with a narrower blade than the pictures show).Thanks for the comments...Cliff
Cliff, many thanks for the reply, the blade mounts are neat but the threaded brass inserts are brilliant!!!! Takes all of the blade adjustment problems away. All the best. Pat
Hi Mel
You got quite a discussion going here about saws.
Here isa web site http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-BOW12.XX&Category_Code=TXQP
they have blades that are less expensive. I will still go with the Wenz dove tail saw. In reality I am more of a hand tool collector than a hand toll user.
I am in the process of finishing a European style workbench. (Frank Klausz) I have been at it on and off for 3 years now. It is quite the work bench but I think I will use it more for its esthetics than a work bench. I am just finishing up the tail vise and then will flatten it and post pictures.
All that to say that some of these ideas we get can take us away from producing furniture. My wife keeps saying. "Isn't a workshop supposed to produce something other than dust?"
Roger
Rog,
Loved the "message" in your message. Someday we'll do a thread on the philosophical, ethical and socioeconomic bases for woodworking. Until then, we all do it for the same reason -- because we like to (at least those of us who are hobbiests). The interesting thing is that the "it" is different for each of us. I am sure that we all like to collect tools, we all like to fix up tools we bought that need to be fixed up, we all like to make tools, like your workbench that are "a cut above", or maybe even two cuts above. That is what makes it so interesting. We all have different takes on this think called woodworking. Our paths cross every once in a while here in Knots as we see others who are doing something that is close to something that we do or think about. I suffer from the same problem that you do. I spend enough time making jigs and fixing up tools that I am not efficient in turning out furniture. But that doesn't matter because our house if FULL. Our kids get all the furniture that I turn out. Luckily they like it. They really don't care what saw I used to make the dovetails. I am glad to meet a kindred spirit. Please put up some photos of your workbench when you are ready, and please write once in a while just to touch base.Have fun.
Mel
PS this surely has been a fun thread. I have not only enjoyed it, but I have learned a lot.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I disagree with the poster who said half-jokingly that you should practice with the difficult saw so that the real thing is easier. I think that sawing to a line, like hitting an 88mph baseball or playing guitar, is all about muscle memory and thus you should practice with the girl that you're going to the dance with.
I disagree too. Practice shouldn't be punishment. The name of the game is to build furniture. I've yet to have an end-user of a piece of furniture want a run-down of the tools I used - style, brand, etc.
The only thing I did to the Stanley was to remove a little bit of the set with an 800 grit ceramic pocket stone.
I've never re-sharpened one, but I've thrown a few away. I've been using a Pax and it's about ready for the trash heap. My eyes are too weary and life is too short to re-sharpen a cheap dovetail saw - at least for me.
Try a Japanese Dovetail saw from The Japanese Woodworker in the $35 to $50 price range. I have a Lie Nielson dovetail saw that cost over $100 and never really mastered, I bought the $50 Japanese saw and have very good results quite easily. It also is the saw I reach for to make quick cut off cuts of various sizes.
LJM
I have a Japanese saw that really works prety good. I was under the impression though that they were not made to cut hardwoods repeatedly.
Roger
Not so. Think about it, this is the type saw the Japanese have used for many years and they often are working in hard exotics.
Also I find that the pull stroke starts the saw a lot easier than the push (western saws).
Larry
My two cents.
I think saw sharpening and making is like so many other things- doing it well is pretty complicated. So don't (those of you who can do it well AND those of you who haven't tried) underestimate it. Restoring an antique saw or fixing a new one isn't quite as simple as a quick lick with a file and a little stoning. Now if you want to learn these skills and are willing to do what it takes to learn them, I'll be the first in line to encourage you to do so and help where I can. But it'd be wrong of me to say its nothing to learn these skills.
So I think your choice is not which saw to buy, but whether you want this particular set of skills or not.
Adam
Get a Dozuki from Japan Woodworker
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