I recently built cabinets and the doors for the cabinets, in a new kitchen for my church here in southern California where the humidity is normally very low.They all turned out great originally. The problem is that the fridge and the freezer are both industrial grade and they put out a lot of humidity. Now I have issues with some of my doors that originally sat perfectly flat to the face frame. On about 8 or 9 of the 28 doors either the rail or the stile of the door warped so much that on one door I have almost a 1 1/2″ gap on the bottom (this is over a 52″ tall door.) Most of the others average about 1/4 to 1/2″ out. I am wondering if inseting 1/2″ rare earth magnets into the door and the face frame might help to pull the door to a closed position. I am not going to build the doors again because for one thing there is no guarantee that this won’t happen again and second I just don’t want to! Please help.
Nate
Edited 7/13/2007 7:01 pm ET by nwr
Edited 7/13/2007 7:02 pm ET by nwr
Replies
Hi nwr,
I know you said you don't want to make the doors again.....but......52" is a fairly long door. Could you replace it with 2 doors? That would at least minimize the look of the warp if it happened again. Otherwise you'll need to address the moisture problem.
Paul
I never tried this, but if you can determin what's warped you could put a piece on the inside to form a T with your stile or rail, that may pull it straight.
C.
Nate,
I' had a problems with warped doors due to similar humidity microclimates in the cabinets' final locations. Fortunately the gaps tend to be only 1/8" or less, in my case. The problem is indeed fixed easily using a rare earth magnet.
One issue is that you need to locate a handle over or very near the magnet, as they are strong and require a hard tug to separate from their keeper. If the handle is a long way from the magnet the door will bend alarmingly, when opened, before coming free.
Your doors sound beyond this technique as the gaps are so big. It would take a very strong magnet to close the gap and a correspondingly enormous tug to get the door open again. The required forces will be even larger if the door frames are substantial and stiff.
Not too much help, this, I know.
Lataxe
nwr , What wood was used and was the wood kd and stable before making the doors ? Does the room need ventilation as well to prevent ongoing problems ?
You didn't say but what type of finish is on the doors , and are they finished on both sides and all the edges the same ?
What type of panels have you used , the doors sound like they are overlay , perhaps you could use latches that positively lock the doors in place .
dusty
Refrigerators and freezers do not create excess humidity, if anything the heat they produce would raise the air temperature in the kitchen and lower the relative humidity. The problems with the doors are not likely due to the kitchen's environment in any case, if they were, all of the doors would have warped.
Warpage in doors is almost always caused by one of three things:
1. Using flat sawn wood, or wood with wild grain, in the door frames. This is the cause of at least 90% of the door warping I've seen. Proper choice of wood is a must. Some wood species are more prone to problems.
2. The problems in #1 are made worse if the wood hasn't acclimated to the shop environment before being worked on.
3. Unequal finishing of the doors surfaces causing uneven moisture gain and loss will occasionally cause problems.
John White, Shop Manger, Fine Woodworking Magazine
I definately agree with John. That is too much warping due to temp humidity changes. I avoid doors that large, but when I have to make them I use 7/8"-1" thick stock.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Just to clear things up a bit. The doors were all made from 13/16" poplar that was well dried before being made into doors. They are all flat panel doors with a 1/4" mdf panel and they are all painted on both sides. Only one door is 52" and that is only half of the opening of a pantry. There is another door below that. The reason I believe it was the fridge and freezer is because the doors were all installed a few weeks before any of the appliances came in and none of them had any problems before this. I was able to use cabinet latches in order to hold most of the problem doors closed but a couple of them have a gap on the bottom where I cannot put a handle. I was thinking that maybe I could still put a bumper on the bottom of the door and just let the magnets pull themselves together somewhat sandwiching the bumper, so the magnets never actually touch. This would make it easier to open the door. Would this work? Here is a picture of what I am talking about. I tried to resize it but I'm not sure if it worked.
Edited 7/14/2007 12:10 pm ET by nwr
Ah... Poplar, in my experience, is somewhat unpredictable in it's stability. I finally quit using it for paint grade cabinets and went to maple.
Paul
That would be nice if I could charge to build out of maple. Out here I got my poplar for $2.10 bdft and at the same place hard maple was $7.50 bdft. Pretty big difference when using 500 bdft.
Not all maple is the same; around here, I can buy soft maple, which is generally the same price as poplar. As you indicate, hard maple is at least twice the price.The lumber yard I buy from carries both.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I come to the same conclusion. I still use Poplar for face frames some times, but doors are always maple.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I can get soft maple here but it is still about $5.50 bdft and I didn't realize that it was any more stable than poplar. I'll have to keep that in mind next time and possibly order it from elsewhere. Thanks for the advice.
nwr
I agree with others who are telling you that there is a very good chance that the poplar you used was not all at the same MC when you finished it.
Kitchens and baths, where cabinets are generally found, have many appliances in them, and in the case of bathrooms, constant swings in humidity levels. My son enjoys a 20 minute hot shower that turns the bathroom into a streambath every day. If the wood used to build these doors was at equilibrium with the environment that it will be living in, than you would not see severe warpage like you are seeing in your doors. At most, 1/8" to 1/4" of movement. Then, if high quality hinges are used, this type of movement can be adjusted out.
For warpage causing a door frame to be out by more than 1", you will probably be stuck rebuilding. I always use Qsawn or riftsawn lumber for all my door rails and stiles, and it always sits in my shop for a few months before using to get acclimated. In 20 years, I've never had to replace a customers door.
Jeff
BTW I also use straight grained poplar for my painted work. No problems.
Edited 7/16/2007 2:21 pm ET by JeffHeath
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