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Hello out there. We are building a bird’s eye maple table, about 42x 86, and want a finish that won’t yellow, is durable (young kids!) , and can be applied without a spray booth. I hear that a water based poly would work okay, but uncertain about applying it to such a large surface. any tips? thank you, Lori and Wayne
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Replies
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Try posting your question on Jeff Jewitt's forum, http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
*Gee Don,That was kinda rude.b ;) Nothing against Jeff (fact is he sometimes posts here) but, there are plenty of folks here that can answer Lori's question. Me? I don't have use for water based anything, unless for painting interior walls. Since Lori is concerned about yellowing and durability and there are no interior finishes that have decent UV blockers, that means that we are into finishes for exterior use.For superior UV protectionb and durability; my recommendation would be Interlux Goldspar 95 which is a one part polyurethane spar varnish. This is brushed on using a high quality China bristle brush, sanding between coats with 320 grit silicon carbide paper, wet. The second to last coat sanded with 400 grit silicon carbide, wet. This is a high gloss finish. For a satin sheen, use 600 grit silicon carbide, wet. For a semi-gloss, use 1200 grit silicon, wet.Personally, I like the "aged" look of Birdseye and would finish it a little differently but........Dano
*Dano, I was about to post the same question as Lori did, so I am glad you responded.I also second your statement that we should not be rude about any questions. Actually, I never even knew about Mr. Jewett's Web site (although I am familiar with his books).Lori, let us know how it turns out.
*Dano --When you wrote "320 grit silicon carbide paper, wet," what do you use to wet the sandpaper for this particular application? Water, some of the Goldspar, or something else? Thanks,David
*David,Just plain ol' water.Dano
*Dano, not to be rude (he he he)...Lori, you might be running afoul of a terminology problem. "Yellowing", to many finishing folks, means discoloring from sunlight over time. This is why Dano is referring to a marine finish with huge ultraviolet light blocking capability.But, I wonder if what you desire is that the Bird's-eye Maple retains its' white color, as opposed to being turned yellow by the finish? Dano will correct me if I'm wrong, but Goldspar is likely a very yellowing/ambering finish.I do use a fair amount of water-based finishes. General Finishes makes a product called High-Performance Polyurethane that I would trust to even a kitchen table, given appropriate application. Using Dano's finishing schedule, with the exceptions of substituting a synthetic bristle brush, and sanding dry, will give a very nice finish. Once the finish is complete, give it at least a week or two (longer for high humidity, shorter for low) to fully cure before putting it into service.Please try any of these suggestions on some leftover scraps first. The coloring and feel that I find pleasing may not suit you at all.Dave
*Dave,As with any finish, the Goldspar will darken the piece somewhat upon application. However, because Interlux is a manufacturer of marine finishes formulated to withstand the rigors of the harsh marine environment, their UV blockers will significantly retard the piece from yellowing.I personally don't know of any product that will not slightly darken the wood or prevent it from "aging". I have found that clear shellac has the least amount of color change when applied but, it will not block out the UV rays nor offer the protection of a poly finish.On the other hand, Interlux's Schooner Varnish 96, is a "traditional" spar that is more amber upon application, formulated with UV filters, not blockers. It too is a very durable finish.FWIW, mine is certainly not the only solution; just one that I recommend as I understand the question. As alluded to previously, I would take a completely different approach if I were doing the piece. Additionally, while I have an intense dislike for water borne finishes, I also acknowledge that if I were ever forced to use one, you would be the first that I would seek advice from.Dano
*Just tossing up a different idea here, too.I wonder why you put such a high stress on UV protection? Good, I guess, but I'm not sure the presence of large amount of UV was called out in the original question. Then again, my personal house somewhat resembles a cave... ;-)"I personally don't know of any product that will not slightly darken the wood"The waterbournes are particularly "good" here, even more than superblonde shellac. I put quotes around good because this is a common cause of complaint with these finishes. People say they are blue, or dead looking, and this is a major cause."or prevent it from "aging"."Agreed. We cannot stop time, no matter how hard we try. When someone is very concerned about color change over time, I recommend high-pressure laminates or solid-surface materials. The really good ones change pretty slowly."while I have an intense dislike for water borne finishes"They are like everything else, there's good ones and bad ones, properly used and improperly used. I'm trying to think of a particularly crappy brand of spar varnish, that someone might use and say "spar varnishes are horrible". It's like that.Appreciate the compliment,Dave
*Dave,Good points all. Guess I "ass-u-me" too much by Lori's question. Though a piece sitting in a bow window facing the the South in a home located in Arizona might "age" quicker than one sitting in the north end of your cave.b ;)You're welcome, I calls 'em as I sees 'em.Dano
*Dano --Thanks.David (from the "what do you use to wet?" question)P.S. Dr. Suess wrote a short little story called "Too Many Daves" about a woman who had a couple dozen sons, all named Dave. Sigh... maybe I should change my name to "Pdavid," with a silent "P."
*Dave Davamoore: No, no, no, don't even think of it.Haven't you received the flyer? The eventual goal is to have an "All Dave, all the time" forum. ;-)How do you tell a guy's name is Dave? He's the one who doesn't turn around when some woman yells "DAVE!" at the mall.Dave
*Dave Arbuckle:EXACTLY!!! I never, ever turn around when someone yells "Dave" or "David" in public. I wait until the third call, and then I figure that all of the uninformed Daves have already turned around to see who it is.At least your last name is somewhat unusual. I once lived in a high-rise (55 stories) with four -- count 'em, four -- other David Moores, two of whom had bad credit and showed up on MY credit report because of the address cross-search.D... D... David
*P.S. Sorry Lori, I hijacked your thread. Unfortunately, I don't use water-based poly, so I don't have much to add beyond my own whining. I'll sit on my hands now.David
*Hey Dano, the Interlux Goldspar 95 where can you buy that. A marine boat store of home improvment store>?scott
*Scott,No, you will only find Interlux at a marina or chandlery.Dano
*Dano, WOW what input! As my first time to a "chat" room it sure is interesting. My concerns about yellowing are that I want it to stay as blond as possible and not have the finish change it immediately. I think (know) it will change over time and exposure. ( I don't live in a cave!) I am very familiar with spar varnish, having been in the boat business for longer than I should of. If I use a spar varnish and want a satin look, why not just use a a satin varnish? And since you lead me in, what would you do instead? This is a very modern piece. Thanks for your time, Lori
*Lori,As I think I indicated there is a big difference between a traditional spar varnish an a polyurethane "spar" varnish. My recommendation for the Interlux Goldspar 95 was primarily out of my assumption that yellowing and durability was a big issue. While Interlux Goldspar Satin 60 is a low luster interior modified poly varnish, it does not have any UV protection as is the case with interior finishes that I am familiar with. As you may or may not know, the Goldspar Satin 60 is extremely durable, enough so that it can be used on a cabin sole.If you were my client, knowing that durability is a big issue, I would show you a piece of "aged" Birdseye and gently "persuade" you to see it's beauty. Once that objection was resolved, what I would do is apply a thin coat of boiled linseed oil to "pop" the grain, let cure for a week or so before applying at least six coats of the Goldspar Satin 60, sanding between coats with 320 grit silicon carbide lubed with water. The next to last coat would be sanded with 400 grit silicon carbide, lubed with water. The actual number of coats would be dependent upon how "deep" of a grain appearance you desired. If you want a hand rubbed look, then I would use 6 coats of Min Wax Wipe On Poly in the satin, with a similar sanding schedule. I've consumed considerable band width on the subject of Min Wax Wipe On Poly here, if you have the time; feel free to perform a search. Briefly, I was extremely skeptical of the product when it first came out, I am now completely sold on it. I recommend it highly to those who are novice to hand rubbed finishes yet want to easily achieve the look. I use it frequently on pieces where durability is an issue. On the other hand, since we don't have little munchkins running about, if this were my own piece I would apply the boiled linseed oil as above and apply my French polish for the finish. After curing, it would be waxed with a light coat of my beeswax and buffed to a semi gloss.Oh, by the way, welcome to thei Knots forum, I hope you enjoy your stay, that you come back often, and share with us what you have to offer.Dano
*Dave, thank you for your input. Yes, you may be closer to the yellowing thing in that we would like to keep the blondness of the maple. Knowing that time will change it, but wanting a clear finish intially. When you use the water based poly do you start with it or put down something first, a sealer or anything? I assume its a gloss finish that we could buff down to a satin? I'm a little concerned that the waterbased is "milky" looking and not clear? Maybe that was when they first came out. I'll be experimenting soon, thanks, Lori
*You're welcome, Lori.I would recommend against using just waterborne poly. It will leave the wood light in color, for sure. But it will do almost nothing to enhance the grain and figure, it rather negates the point of using Bird's-eye Maple.Two things I would try for an initial coat would be super-blonde shellac or "pure" tung oil (the stuff called "tung oil finish" will yellow pretty significantly on application). Either will enhance grain, in slightly different ways. I believe all super-blonde shellac is dewaxed, but just in case, be sure it is dewaxed, or the topcoat may have adhesion problems. No adhesion problems with tung oil, once is has cured. Curing can take a long time, though. I wait for the smell to subside, for a thin "pop the grain" application I would budget three days to a week for this part.Waterborne poly is milky in the can, it looks like "no fat" milk. This is a function of its chemistry though, not the final appearance. So long as you don't apply it in great huge thick layers, it is very clear once it cures. I strongly prefer gloss formulated finishes, and buffing back to the sheen desired. I use ScotchBrite pads mostly, they are available in several grades for differing sheens.Experimenting, that is the most important part. :-)Dave
*Couple of questions & comments:Lori, if you have never used watco ot tung oil or similar, please be sure to let it fully dry before applying a top coat. I (and probably many others here) can attest to the mess that you can create if you don't wait long enough.Dano: What do you think about wet sanding with the finish as the lube? And what is a chandlery?I have a client that want a very light colored cabinet. Would holly be appropriate, or is it not suitable for cabinets. They don't want much grain to show.
*Ed,Wet sanding with the finish as the lubricant makes no sense to me, seems that would defeat the purpose. A chandlery is where marine goods and supplies are sold.Well, Holly would certainly be light, damn near white and it has an extremely close grain. It is real stable; radial movement is 3/32" per foot, tangential is 13/32" per foot, 90% to 60% relative humidity. Takes finishes very well and is real durable, expensive too. FWIW.Dano
*Dano, you were doing so well, right up to the part where you used the 'e' word.Did you see the article in the current FWW about wet sanding? That's why I asked the question. Seems to make sense, especially for the first, possibly second, coats.
*Ed,Oh well. I don't have much use for water borne finishes either. b ;) Seems to me that incorporating the residue as part of the finish is sort of contrary to what I was taught. It it ain't broke, why should I "fix" it.?Dano
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