Replies

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jun 16, 2004 06:33am | #1

   >> Is there another way to cut grooves by hand?

   A straight edge, a utility knife, a chisel, and a hammer or mallet.

   >> Still, it would be cheapest ...

   Only if there's nothing you'd rather do with your time, like maybe working enough hours at your day job to buy the No. 45. Your goals will change the more woodworking you do, and that's not a bad thing. But as long as your goal is making a tool chest or even cutting a groove, making a plow plane is a detour, rather than a step on the path. IMHO. Now if making a plow plane becomes the goal, have at it. I can think of worse ways to spend your time.

   >> Sorry if this topic is already covered somewhere in the archives,

   >> but I couldn't readily find it.

   No problem. Just having looked covers a multitude of sins. Actually, even claiming to have looked goes a long way.

2. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 16, 2004 07:00am | #2

   I can't be of any help here, since I am one of those who always picks up a power tool, unless I have no other option.

   However, there are many dedicated hand tool adherents in this forum -- many of which have an almost messianic zeal. They will find this thread and probably flood you with very useful comments/advice.

   But my main reason for replying is to urge you -- in the strongest possible terms -- never to hesitate in offering a comment or posting a question. This forum is filled with civil people with great experience who never fail to respond to the kind of thoughtful question you have posed here. Besides, there are many of us who appreciate the opportunity to pass along some of the hard-won information we have accumulated over the years.

   BTW, the search function in these forums is, I think, miserably inadequate. It is always good to try a search, but if you cannot quickly find the answer to your query, just go ahead and post it. There are a few here (not me) who manage to keep track of past threads, and if there is something germane to your issue, they will generally give you the link in their reply.

   So welcome to the fray ...............gezuar.

3. 
   Wateren | Jun 16, 2004 07:47am | #3

   Hello

   A flea market #45 might be just right for you.

   I bought a #45 at garage sale a couple of years ago for $25 (I think). It was not quite complete, it was missing the right guide, but had a ful set of blades. I was able to find what it was missing from the owners manual, which Lee Valley is reprinting for about five bucks (Stanley Combination Planes, item no. 49L80.52). This booklet has exploded views and parts details of the Stanley 45-55 series planes.

   Buying one of these planes new is big bucks, the number $355 sticks in my mind. Garrett Wade and Woodcraft both carry combination planes, I can't look them up right or I would give you their prices.

   You can make grooves using a Skilsaw (circular saw) and a straightedge, can cut the bulk of the waste to full depth and clean up with a chisel. This is faster and easier even if you have a combination or plow plane.

   Making a wooden plane using a chisel for the blade is not difficult but if you want to get going on the other projects this might be frustrating. On the other hand it might be a welcome exercise and diversion for you. Go for it if you are so inclined.

   Of course Uncle Dunc is correct, the basic method, using a chisel between knife lines, will still work.

   Cheers, Christo

4. 
   dirtstirrer | Jun 16, 2004 09:11am | #4

   Welcome to Knots, we're generally friendly here.  All bets are off in the Cafe though. 

   I think a 45 would work fine for what you're looking to do.  I have and use several, and they are good tools if you don't try to do something they are not designed for.  If I was you, I'd try to get a complete one, you don't need the box, or matching trademarks or any of that collecter stuff to cut dado's, so that will save you some $.  You should be able to find a 45, with all the parts, and a set of cutters, for about $100.  If you don't mind a little missing nickel, or a bit of rust to clean off that is. 

   Dave Heckel has an excellent book just on 45 planes, and their various types.  He sells them on Ebay, and if you want, I can give you his contact info.  Armed with that book, you'll know what you're buying is a complete plane.  Another good source besides Patrick Leaches website, are the old manuals that came with the planes.  Reprints abound on Ebay, for cheap. 

   I'm a 45 collecter, but I have to admit, there is a better way.  Get an old wood plow plane.  The advantage that they have over a 45, is that they actually have a throat.  That cutter with nothing in front of it on the 45 usually works OK, but throw some wild grain at it, and you've got your work cut out for you.  An old Sandusky or Ohio wooden plow is a great tool.  Make sure you get on in decent shape though.  You don't want a cracked, rotten hunk of junk that some idiot "antiqued".  They can be dedicated width dados, or plows with adjustable fences that will take different width cutters.  Either works well.  Bet you find that you can work just as fast, or faster with planes then those nasty, dusty, screaming unpredictible tailed devils. 

   Steve
5. 
   Crunk | Jun 16, 2004 11:53pm | #5

   My workshop is completely unplugged - no electric tools.  You could make a scratch stock (do a search), but it's a *relatively* poor replacement for a grooving plane.  A Stanley 45 is what you need, or a Record 405, or a Record 050C.  These are 'combo' planes in that they have cutters that do other things besides cut grooves.  You can find old grooving planes on EBay or through other antique tool dealers which may be a little cheaper than a combo plane.

   You could mark out with a straightedge and knife then chop grooves with a chisel and follow up with the scratch stock to smooth and even out the bottom of the grooves.  You could chop a reasonably serviceable groove with a chisel and mallet only, but woodworkers have used grooving planes for literally hundreds of years for a reason.

   You ought to dig your heals in and buy a Stanley 45 or the Record models I mentioned. 

   
   

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   Edited 6/16/2004 5:34 pm ET by BossCrunk

   
   

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   Edited 6/16/2004 5:34 pm ET by BossCrunk

6. 
   Alan | Jun 17, 2004 12:40am | #6

   Grevisse,

   I too am a devoted hand tool user--and perhaps a bit messianic--but I'll try not to preach.

   A Stanley #45 or #55 will do the job, as will an old wooden plow plane, but there are alternatives if you don't want to search endlessly and wait for one of those to come around.

   Until recently Stanley still made their #12-250 combination plane.  I have one and it has never let me down.  With sharp, SHARP! irons and a light cut it works wonderfully well.  You may still find one new that some catalog outfit didn't sell.

   Clifton is now selling the Clico combination plane.  Its capabilities are somewhere between a Stanley #45 and a #55 (IMO closer to a #55).  I have one of those too, and it also works great:  it's a very well made tool that works well.  The problem is that it costs big money.

   IIRC I've seen ads for an ECE plow that comes with several different width irons.  I don't have one of those, so I don't know how well it works, but ECE has a reputation for making excellent tools.  You might check Woodcraft, Highland Hardware and Garrett-Wade.

   As others have said, it's relatively easy to make a groove with a cutting gauge and a sharp chisel that's the width of the groove you want to make.  Use the gauge to cut both edges of the groove.  Then, begin at the far end of the groove and work back towards yourself.  Make sure you are working "uphill" into the rising grain.  Put the chisel bevel down a few inches from the end, raise the handle just a bit and zip out 1/8" or so deep to the end.  Move the chisel back towards yourself another few inches and do the same thing.  Keep going all the way to the far end as you work.  It is remarkably easy to do.  If you're a fanatic you can use a scratch stock or something similar to make everything a consistent depth, but that's too much trouble for someone as lazy as I am.  It's a snap.

   You can make a dado the same way, except use a saw to cut the edges to the depth of the dado.  The chisel actually makes a "zip" sound as you remove the wood between the kerfs.

   As I guess you can see, there are a lot of alternatives to one of those screaming, forked-tail, dangerous, electron-chomping devils.

   Welcome to the less expensive, safer and quieter hand tool side.

   Alan  (who has once again gone on way too long.  You shouldn't have gotten me started; you know how I am.)

1. 
   Crunk | Jun 17, 2004 01:23am | #7

   Garrett Wade had a few 12-250s left a few months ago.  I had one once.  Mine had a machining defect that allowed the cutter to project deeper on the right edge.  This happened with every cutter and I could not tune this defect out of the plane.  I returned mine and never tried another unit.  However, I liked the overall design of that plane very much.  Stanley should have kept producing that plane given the resurgence of hand tool woodworking.  It was reasonably priced as I recall.  I'm sure I had a rare defective unit.

   I came across a Record 050C which is essentially the same plane, though the machining is far superior.  Thing works like a charm.  This is a less sexy tool than an old Stanley 45, but the geometry is better - it has a low profile/low center of gravity like the Stanley 12-250 which makes it much more comfortable to use (less 'tippy' than the 45).

7. 
   Floss | Jun 17, 2004 01:57am | #8

   Here are a couple of places that sell wooden plow planes, kind of pricey though. The look rather nice with an assortment of wide and narrow blades.

   J.P.

   http://www.fine-tools.com/divhob.htm

   http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=2_4_333&osCsid=b63e68bcaaf265a122f1304d4f66b61c

1. 
   Grevisse | Jun 17, 2004 06:02am | #9

   Thanks, everyone, for the incredible information and words of encouragement, not to mention the ultra-speedy replies. Sorry I wasn't able to answer each post immediately, but they just came too fast.

   Uncle Dunc, your advice was eminently practical; I won't start building specialty planes just yet. In any case, the tiny, engineering-oriented section of my brain is already badly overtaxed.

   Nikkiwood, thanks for the welcome. I still intend to use Knots sparingly, but I won't hesitate to post when I have a question that magazines, books, Web searches and forum searches don't answer. And you were right: the hand tool enthusiasts were, if not messianic, at least...well, enthusiastic.

   Wateren and Dirt Stirrer, I'm still considering that flea market 45, and if get it, I'll definitely look into the 45 instruction books available from Lee Valley and Dave Heckel. But I'm also going to see what I can dig up regarding wooden Sanduskys and Ohios. IIRC, the flea market had a number of wooden planes too, but none that seemed adapted to plowing.

   BossCrunk, much gratitude for putting me onto the Record 405 and 050C. I'm still at that early stage of woodworking where I think Stanley is one of the few names I can trust. Obviously, it just ain't so.

   Alan and jp, I checked out the ECEs. Nice, but alas, a touch on the pricey side. I'll have to wait and see if I do enough grooving to justify the cost. So far, however, it's not even close. Anyway, I can't wait to try out all the great tips Alan served up for cutting a groove with a chisel. I can already hear the zzzip!

   Thanks all. My options seem infinitely wider now than they did at this time yesterday. And while I wouldn't necessarily categorize tables saws, routers, etc., as dragon-tailed, ravenous, finger-munching powergoblins, there's undoubtedly something about hand tools that just ....... well, don't get me started. (There was a thread in Knots recently about the type of articles we'd like to see in FW. I'd love to see a regular feature called, I don't know ... Do It By Hand, maybe. Something short that explained a hand tool technique.) Anyway, thanks once again everybody.

   Grévisse