Hi. I am just starting out and have been reading up on table saws as my first purchase. Does anyone have any experience with the new Craftsman table saw, the cabinet version, that lists for about $950? I have regular 15 amp circuits. Will I need to get a 25 or 30 amp, 220 volt line for this table saw? Or should I just get the higher amp lines in general?
Thanks for any help,
Marty
Replies
A 15-amp circuit isn't going to handle that motor very well. That aside, I see the same downfalls for that Craftsman saw as I see in general for their power tools: It's underpowered and over-priced. The concept is excellent, it's just not carefully executed at a price comparable to other companies.
The other thing I always worry about with CM power tools is customer service down the road. This worry comes from experience. Their parts tend to be very expensive and, at least several years ago, hard to get. And it's almost impossible to find someone on the other end of the phone line who knows what they're talking about.
The new Craftsman is a hybrid saw, cross between a cabinet saw and a contractors saw. For the same money or less, you can get the well-tested and successful (click) Grizzly 1023 Cabinet Saw There are several models, and I'd recommend getting one with the Shop Fox Classic fence. That would be the 1023S ($825) or the left-tilting 1023SL ($895). Freight is around $78 for these saws.
If you buy a Grizzly 1023, you are much more likely to happy 5 years down the road than you would be with the Craftsman. You would need to run 220V to your shop (they have a 110V model, but it sucks up 24 amps, not a great idea). If running 220V into the shop is absolutely not possible for you at this time, take a look at the better of the contractor saws like General, that come with 1.5HP motors and a Beisemeyer-clone fence (the type of fence is very important). Click here for a look at all their small shop table saws.
BTW: Grizzly has excellent customer service. Don't have any personal experience with General, but they and Jet, Delta, other dedicated tool companies are always going to out-do Sears for CS down the road. They keep parts in stock and techs on hand.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 10/2/2004 12:03 pm ET by forestgirl
Forestgirl, thanks very much. You make a strong case for the Grizzly model. I am surprised at the lack of customer service you and others have received from Craftsman.
Sincerely,
Marty
I would second FG's recommendation. I got an up close look at the craftsman cabinet saw with bessy fence. The top is good and solid and the bessy fence is a good addition to the saw. The big drag I had on the saw is the motor and belt drive. It has a single belt and no where near the 3hp of the Grizzly 1023 that I ended up purchasing. The beef in the trunions and belts will make a difference. If you get the craftsman keep in mind that it is only 1.75 hp. It will run on 110, but IMO that's not enough to swing it in it's favor. If you get a SF or Griz, you will need 220, but it's worth it. I used a shop smith for years and my new Griz is worlds above. I really struggled with large lumber bogging the shopsmith down. Not a problem any more. I would compare the spec's of the craftsman to some others before you buy it. I own many craftsman tools, but in this case you can get better for the same money.
Bones, thanks very much for the advice. I am going to look into the Grizzly and get several 220 volt lines. Have you had any experience or know others that have used the hybrid saws from Jet (Supersaw?) or Dewalt? How about Delta? Of the tools-power tools you have, what do you recommend from Craftsman?
Sincerely,
Marty
Bones, thanks very much for the advice. I am going to look into the Grizzly and get several 220 volt lines. Have you had any experience or know others that have used the hybrid saws from Jet (Supersaw?)
My personal opinion is that if you can swing the dough and don't have a tight space problem then get the cabinet saw. Popular woodworking put out an issue in July 04 that was dedicated to the table saw. This is fantastic. Order it and it will provide a lot of information in a few condensed pages. It will give you the differences between the saw types and what the trade offs are. It talks about 220 .vs. 110. It discusses setting up a saw and tuning, as well as accessories. I still look at it from time to time.
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/store/backissue.asp?issuedate=7/1/2004
or Dewalt? How about Delta? Of the tools-power tools you have, what do you recommend from Craftsman?
Dewalt or Jet as in table saws? I can't speak to that, I have no experience one way or the other. Delta in table saws? They are very good. For me, it came down to cost. I looked at the unisaw, but so many people here, and reviews in mags and other internet forums gave them high marks. I decided to give them a try. The money I saved paid for the band saw I got (grizzly as well). You will find most people here will rag pretty hard on craftsman, but I have many craftsman hand tools and a few electric tools that have performed well over the years. I am a hobbyist and don't use them 10hrs a day. If you make your living with your tools, then a higher end tool is definitely in order. My 19.2 drill/driver is great, and the reciprocating saw and circular saw has done well over the years. I have had their routers, but after getting my first porter cable, I doubt I will ever use the craftsman again. I try to go by "get the best tool you can afford". Finally, do research. I know I read just about every review I could get my hands on before I made my mind up. I don't regret the Grizzly purchases one bit. Good luck on the decision.
Bones, I forgot to ask before.. What does SF stand for...which company? I can't think of it offhand.
Thanks,
Marty
[Jamie nosing in here] SF, in this particular instance, stands for Shop Fox. Most of the Grizzly saws are equipped with Shop Fox fences. They make a Shop Fox Classic (Beismeyer clone, yum), Shop Fox (yuck), and Shop Fox Aluma-Classic (jury is out, IMO).
Shop Fox's machines are sold through a number of on-line and store-front businesses, and maybe a local dealer in your area. Their best-known tools are probably the benchtop mortiser, cabinet saw and oscillating drill press. Here's a link to the full line:http://www.shopfox.biz/shpfxmachinery.cfmforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"...What does SF stand for"
Sorry for the abbreviation. It stands for Shop Fox.
Marty -
I purchased that Craftsman saw a little over two months ago, and have been very happy with it. Solidly built, great fence, and a surprisingly good stock blade and miter guage. I've used it to cut maple, oak, walnut, etc., and have not experienced any lack of power from the 1 3/4 HP motor. My only complaint was that the stock splitter/blade guard was difficult to align properly...but probably no more so than other stock guards. Replaced it with an MJ splitter and a shop made overhead blade guard. Also, while the list price is $950, Sears regularly runs sales on this saw...I paid about $720 for it between a sale and an additional Craftsman club discount. There has been several discussions of this saw and the other new Craftsman saws over on the Woodnet forum, if you're interested in additional information.
The saw is manufactured for Sears by a company called Orion International. As I understand it, that company was formed by a group of former Delta employees who were "downsized," which probably explains some of the design similarities between the new Craftsman saws and some Delta products.
Steven
p.s. No affiliation with Sears/Craftsman/Orion...just a happy customer.
Thanks for the info Steve. I take it you have had the need to call customer service at Sears yet? Also, $720?!! That is a great price. I have seen sales for $899; did the did the other $179 come from a Craftsman Club discount? Did someone set the saw up from you? When you bought the Craftsman what others did you consider and why did you choose the Craftsman?
I am just learning the woodworking lingo...MJ splitter?
Again, thanks very much.
Marty
Hi Marty -
Yes, the $720 was from a combination of a regular advertised sale, Craftsman club discount, and another 10% discount coupon. Haven't had to use customer service yet, everything on the saw has been working fine.
Set the saw up myself, but my FIL and BIL came over to help with the heavy lifting. Whichever saw you ultimately decide on, I recommend choosing a mobile base first, and assembling the saw onto the base...a lot easier than trying to lift a saw that weighs in at 400-450 pounds (when fully assembled) onto the base.
Overall, I chose the Craftsman because it had the features that I wanted for the type of woodworking that I do. I wanted a quality fence, but I do not do large pieces, so the 30" fence capacity is plenty for me. Plus, since it is a Biesemeyer, I imagine that if I wanted the extra capacity (and had the extra shop space) I could find longer rails that would fit the saw. Also, my shop is in my basement, so I wanted a fully-enclosed cabinet for better dust collection. Solid cast wings, extension table, left tilt, and ample power for my needs all played a part in my decision. Early reviews of the saw from other owners were also positive.
As far as what else I considered, I looked at the Dewalt Hybrid and a couple of the General International saws for new saws, and was keeping my eyes out for a deal on a used cabinet saw. Also thought about the Grizzley cabinet saw, but I prefer to see something in person before spending that kind of money. (Too bad Grizzley doesn't come to any of the WW-ing shows to display their products.)
The MJ Splitter is a particular brand of splitter put out by Micro Jig (the same folks that make the Gripper system). I think they are available at a variety of stores...purchased mine at Woodcraft, but I have also seen it in the Rockler catalog, and I think you can order direct from the manufacturer. Goes for about $15. Easy to install, works well, and for $15 much cheaper than any of the other aftermarket splitters I have seen.
Hi Marty - Here's a long winded version of the way I view this situation... The new saw from Sears appears to be a step up from the saws they'd been selling over the past few years. One valid concern that others have pointed out is the lack of a track record....time is the only resolution for that. The early user reports seem to be positive. The saw does have several things going for it...full featured miter gauge, top notch fence, enclosed cabinet (better DC), cabinet hung trunnions, full cast iron wings, outfeed table and extension tables, a decent blade, ribbed serpentine belt (less vibration), and the ability to run on 110V can be an assett if 220V is not an option or a desire....electrical costs should be considered in the equation.
I agree that dollar for dollar the Griz and SF appear to offer more substantial machines, but that doesn't necessarily make the Sears the second best choice. Alot depends on your needs. The Sears saw goes on sale frequently...I've read of several people picking it up for $750-$800 which makes it alot more attractive. Many wwers use 1-1/2hp contractor saws successfully for their entire wwing lives, then pass them along to their family and friends. The full blown cabinet saw, while definitely more robust, isn't always necessary. With the correct blade selection you may never need 3HP, although I do find 220v availability a worthwhile pursuit. Also many people find it unnerving to buy a $900 machine site unseen. There's alot of value in pawing over something and getting a feel for it.
IMHO the Jet and DeWalt hybrids offer less for the same money as the Sears. The quality of the rip fence relative to the cost of the saw has always been my biggest knock against those machines. They do offer the option of a sliding miter table for ~ $400. I prefer the DW over the Jet. Jet is now offer it's SS fence on their $550 contractor saw...which to me is an indicator of it's value.
As far as customer service goes, it's hard to anticipate what each of our experiences will be like. The corporate trend in general is cost cutting which often results in under trained over stretched resources. I've heard of good and bad from just about every company who sells machines. The more items that get sold, the higher the probability of needing some service. The more service requests that are made, the higher the probabily of running into some sort of problem. We indeed may hear of more Sears CS problems, but there's a ratio of items sold vs items serviced that we're not privvy to. I'd hazard a guess that Sears sells more stuff than any other company. That said, I'm still very cautious about spending hard earned money on their wwing machines, b/c there's usually a better choice in the same price range. There new Professional router appears to be clone of the Bosch 1617 and got high marks from Wood. Alot of people like the 6" jointer, but my opinion is that it's not as good a choice as the Griz, Ridgid, Sunhill, Yorkcraft, or Bridgewood.
I'm not disagreeing with the others about the value of the full cabinet saw. Those are great choices for many people, possibly myself included, but there may be some advantages of the new Sears machine to consider. My suggestion is to make a list of the factors that are most important to you, and choose the best saw you can afford that will suit your needs.
FWIW - Here's link to another discussion about this saw's origins. It contains a link about Orion International who makes the saw. http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1143230&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=
Good luck and please keep us updated.
Scott
When I was a kid (shortly after the earth cooled), Craftsman tools were considered to be very good and everyone I knew had them. Like many companies, Sears went through a long period of declining quality and lousy customer service which cost them dearly.
Now, I think I'm seeing Sears pulling their act together and improving their stuff. I'm hearing good things about their new cabinet saw and many of their other tools seem to be greatly improved. One change that got my attention is their new line of sockets with the sizes marked in LARGE letters. After 20+ yeaers of squinting to read the tiny size markings, that feature alone is almst enough to get me to replace my extensive socket collection. - lol
Scott, thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. I have very little woodworking experience. I have been reading about equipment for awhile now and have asked for opinions in forums and the few that I have met.
The overwhelming response in terms of tools is get the best you can afford. And, they say it generally pays to spend a little more for certain items because of more satisfaction, better results, less downtime and maybe never having to buy another one. I also have read and heard that a table saw should be first on the list. So, that said, I am leaning towards getting a couple of 220 lines to get more flexibility. I'll take a look a Grizzly and a few others. I am going to write down what I am looking for-that will help.
Thanks again. I'll be in touch as I get closer to a decision.
Marty
Hi again Marty - Since you have a PC, you may find it worthwhile putting your "list" into spreadsheet form (like Excel) . I know I did.
I would like a nicer saw, I would love to pick up a used Unisaw, found one for $650 but it might still be out of my range.
My current craftsman table saw sits in the rain year after year and works year after year. It isn't that I am punishing it, I just don't have room in my shop for it. It has that old crappy fence they used to put on them 20 some years ago. Still going strong.
I actually feel guilty about leaving my craftsman 6" jointer in the rain, it has to be 30+ years old, I got it for $40 a while back at one of the local used tool sales we put on. I may get the surface ground one of these days as it is worn around the throat.
The motor on the craftsman cuts through 2" oak and even a few 4" walnut blanks. Anyway, they are good solid tools.
Marty-
I have a Delta Unisaw and love it. I had a 10" Craftsman for many years, and when I was able, I spent the bucks on the Unisaw. I have the 3HP version with the Unifence. I suspect this saw will last forever, as it has been around forever and the old ones are as solid as they day they were built.
Yes, it's more money, but just looking at that sucker makes me feel good. And using it is a dream. That's my 2 cents.
Marty,
Although I only have one item from Grizzly (the G513 bandsaw), I wanted to agree with the others who are recommending that you look seriously that direction. When I purchased a new table saw early this year, I went with the Jet JTAS10XL -- the Grizzly G1023SLX looks identical in the catalog and the specs read like the Jet manual. I could have saved a few hundred dollars going with Grizzly.
As to the quality of Grizzly products, I bought my bandsaw based on input from the folks on this forum. The comparable Jet model I was looking at is priced about $400 higher. My neighbor has the Jet and, after seeing my Grizzly, is kicking himself.
God luck!
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
General International makes a great saw for about $650 to $700 bucks. 2 hp, left or right tilt, two cast wings, 50" fence rails so you can add a side extention table (or save 30 to 50 buck and go with the 30", I bought the 50), and solid cast miter gauge. I think it is very very hard to beat. You get the extra beef and extras for just about the cost of more basic contractor saws. Not a cabinet saw, but pretty darn good.
I have a good friend who bought that saw (General International) last month, and it is extremely nice! The wings fit so well to the table, you can barely feel the transition. Quality fit and finish. Great fence.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The only thing about the GEneral is that I don't think they are sold all that widely. If you are in a large city, no problem. And I would bet that back east you would have no problem either as General is out of Toronto (I think). That said, warrantly could be a problem, but really once you get it out of the box and up and running the likelihood of a problem is nil. Ok, in time you need a motor? Well, you don't even need to replace it with a General, right?
If you had an out of box problem, htat could be an issue. And you would be smart to talk to your dealer about that eventuality before you buy.
But WHAT A SOLID SAW!
Hi Marty, I have read through a few of the comments to your post and I have concerns. There is some danger associated with some of the larger saws recommended. Years ago I was also inexperienced, and was ripping 2X4s in half with a 3hp 220v unisaw. At the end of the cut the piece against the fence was thrown backwards like a rocket and went completely through the wainscotted lath and plaster wall behind me. Later on that week a piece of plywood I was free cutting (on an angle) jammed and I was rewarded with a broken rib for my stupidity.
That was almost 30 years ago and though none of those things would happen to me today (knock on wood), I would recommend you start out with a less powerful saw that will be slightly more forgiving. You are right about spending your money wisely on quality but bigger isn't always better the first time.
"I would recommend you start out with a less powerful saw that will be slightly more forgiving."
That 'more forgiving' saw could also become a danger when one tries to cut material that is more than it can handle; i.e., ripping 8/4 or thicker hardwood. I had a couple of close calls with a 'less powerful' saw that would not have happened with my 3hp cabinet saw. Ripping 8/4 stock on my old saw (1 3/4 hp contractor model) would result in tripping a breaker occasionally -- never happens with my new saw.
Also, 'free-cutting' is a dangerous task. Far better to use a circular saw.
Regards,Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Hey Bill, like I said, I made a few mistakes 30 years ago, and I think Marty may be better served in his novice stage (post 12) by a less powerful saw. I mentioned a couple of dangers to get his attention.
Eventually, through experience and training we develop a safe way of working and know the limits of the equipment we are so accustomed to. You know he's going to be jamming some material, its part of the learning curve. Most novices are ripping ply and 3/4" stock, and with a decent blade, a 1½ hp saw will fit the bill, Bill.
" Later on that week a piece of plywood I was free cutting...." Yikes, Gordsco, major, major mistake. Never free-cut on a table saw. Sounds like your material control needed some improvement -- that ripped 2x4 had a reason for turning into a missle.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 10/6/2004 12:21 pm ET by forestgirl
" Later on that week a piece of plywood I was free cutting...." Yikes, Gordsco, major, major mistake. Never free-cut on a table saw. Sounds like your material control needed some improvement -- that ripped 2x4 had a reason for turning into a missle.
Like I said.... 30 yrs ago..couldn't read grain back then. Today, I frequently free cut curves in 1½" stock, prior to sanding smooth and still count to ten without taking my socks off...;~).... but I've never forgotten those foolish mistakes and just how lucky I was back when.
I can't imagine every trusting my hands to stay steady enough to free-cut on a table saw. Guess I'll have to stick with the fence, or the miter gauge, or a template as instructed. Glad everything turned out OK for you.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have had very good luck with all Craftsman power tool products, especially the high end ones. For $100 a year, you can get a service contract and Sears will come out to your home, calibrate the saw trunions, and replace any worn parts. If the motor blows, they replace it. The technicians are all very well qualified and cheerful.
That being said, I currently own a Delta Unisaw...........
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
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