Replies

1. 
   BHerman | Jun 22, 2004 10:30pm | #1

   Hi Youngin -

   Not sure if I qualify as a "regular" since I don't often participate in discussions, but yours caught my eye. Pretty impressive shop for a 19 year old - I'm in my late 40's, have been woodworking since I was a kid, and don't have as much stuff as you do !

   Really only one answer to your question - always double and triple-check your measurements before you cut! I know that sounds like a simple answer, but that's all that it takes. I wish I had a dollar for everytime that I stopped myself before I did something, double-checked, and found that I'd gotten distracted and missed a mark. Also, I always write dimensions down on paper, memory is a fleeting thing.

2. 
   jackplane | Jun 22, 2004 10:46pm | #2

   Welcome.

    I try to visualize the machined parts, and how they assemble into a whole before I begin cutting. If what you envision does not match the drawing, that error must be corrected.

1. 
   BG | Jun 22, 2004 11:20pm | #4

   youngin,

   There are a number of things you can do to help yourself, however, the first thing is to define the problem.  Are you making a mistake because you didn't think ahead?  are you cutting to the wrong line? measuring wrong? are your mistakes with primarily one tool or process.  In other words narrow down the issue and document the problem.  Eddie here from Aus. marks on his students work the error they made...then they can focus on the weakness and avoid it....it might mean taking a break...or developing a process which helps avoid (measure twice, etc.).  Concentrating is exhausting work..developing stamina takes time and there are some other tricks which you can read about elsewhere 

   Most of your problem is age related...once you get your wisdom teeth you'll see it gets easier.

3. 
   forestgirl | Jun 22, 2004 11:12pm | #3

   Hi Nick, welcome!!  It's great for us old'ns to see a youngin step up here!  You're light-years ahead of me in experience and spatial abilities, but I might have a couple of ideas on the concentration thing.

   • What else are you thinking about when you're measureing and cutting?  They might be things that seem to be "more important" or "more creative/interesting/complex" than the mundane act of stringing a tape and making a pencil mark or setting a fence.  While the second might be true, the first (importance) is certainly not :-)    So, devote yourself in some kind of Zen-ish way to the process of measuring and cutting. 
   • Use the old axiom, "measure twice, cut once."  Sometimes you don't have to actually measure -- you can use a corresponding piece of stock to take your distance from.
   • Maybe take a transitionary break between whatever you just finished doing and the actual measuring/cutting process.

   I make alot of mistakes on simple stuff because I'm mentally fretting or problem-solving about something more complex that's waiting down the line. 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   CStanford | Jun 23, 2004 12:36am | #6

   He's 19... I think I know what he might be thinking about.

1. 
   BG | Jun 23, 2004 12:50am | #7

   ...glad to see ou can still remember...lol

2. 
   forestgirl | Jun 23, 2004 07:44am | #16

   Too funny!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

4. 
   JimW | Jun 22, 2004 11:53pm | #5

   Youngin,

   I am also relatively young (22) but I only started four years ago with a small shop in my basement which isn't even close to being done, so you probably way ahead of me.

   As far as measuring goes, one problem many people have in letting their tape "shoot" back into the case.  This is bad because it bends the hook out, causing in accurate inside measurments and sometimes even outside ones too.  Stanleys new tape has wings that should "help" with the problem, but it is still best to hold your finger against the tape to slow down its speed.

   Another tip is to always use the same tape.  If you take a measurement with one tape and then cut with another, you can cause all new problems.

   Hope this helps.

   Jim

   Coventry Woodworking

5. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 23, 2004 12:57am | #8

   I don't have much to offer about measuring to a would-be mechanical engineer who is proficient in CAD. You no doubt already know about the virtues of good rulers, tapes, and the like.

   But one thing that has not been mentioned in the posts thus far is the value of using a story stick to lay out and construct whatever you are building. It has been used since humans started building things, and it is still the best way to keep track of your measurements.

   I knew about story sticks a long time before I started using them, but never utilized them , in part because they seemed more trouble than they were worth. But years ago, I met a cabinet maker who used a story stick for virtually everything. I thereupon resolved to stay with it until I found a system of marking story sticks that worked for me.

   And now, it is an indispensable part of my cabinet building system. Used in conjunction with your drawings, I think you'll probably find it is pretty much impossible to mess up.

   I hope you will continue to find time in your busy schedule to participate in these forums.

6. 
   Midnight | Jun 23, 2004 01:23am | #9

   Hi Nick..

   lord knows I'm guilty of doing this myself.. distractions, blonde moments, tired... no matter....they're all blowing my focus away from where it should be.  Learn to catch it; as soon as you feel your concentration is slipping, take a time out. It doesn't matter what you do provided it's not shop related. Give your head 5-10 mins to clear, have a coffee, blow off some steam, whatever, just give your mind some time to relax. You'll end up saving time on the project overall; less re-work to do.

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

7. 
   mike4244 | Jun 23, 2004 01:49am | #10

   First thing Nick , everybody makes little mistakes. Sometimes big ones. Now a few things that may help. If possible try to measure with the same tape, rule etc, there are variations in both, even using same brands. On moldings I usually do not mearsure at all, I will cut a miter , hold it against casework and mark the other end. Not always practical though, if molding is long  I will cut it over size , then clamp if I can and mark the other end. With casework, using a long fence and stop block will help keep identical boards the same dimensions. Use this on a mitersaw or a table saw within reason. I write dimensions on unfinshed side of boards, helps keep me straight even if I do not look at it again. Use story sticks for critical dimensions and for repetitive work instead of a tape. The next time you realize you made a mistake , stop for a few minutes, figure out what you did wrong. Then figure out how you should have done it. Make a few notes, look them over when you have your morning coffee. Forget that your not old enough to have coffee.

   Nick don't be too hard on yourself, and check in to the forum often

   mike

8. 
   add47 | Jun 23, 2004 02:15am | #11

   Without a valid personal claim to expertise or even proficiency, I will offer the following thoughts...

   My experience has taught me..

   to avoid using a tape measurse for cabinet or furniture scale measureing.   accuracy is between 1/16 and 1/8 in at best. I use hard rulers mostly, or mark directly.

   Story sticks do avoid confusion and miscutting

   pencils are for carpentry, while marking knives and scratch awls are for cabinetry/furniture.

   Cut it an 1/8 long and sneak up on the final cut.

   Maybe doesn't apply to you, but bi-focals help me

   Lighting is huge.  Glare and shadow can lead to "kindof" accurate marks.

   My mentor says visualize 1/32" and measure to that tolerance   It seems to work, when I take my time, but 

   the hurrier I go the behinder I get.

   By the way, hats off to your ambition and early personal development.  I won't disclose what I was doing at your age, but it was not as respectable.

1. 
   Biscardi | Jun 23, 2004 02:41am | #12

   I think the single most important thing anyone ever told me about woodworking is:

   Always do each step of the project the best you can. Never say, I'll leave it go at that and "fix it later".

   I think dependence on mechanization limits you to how good your tools are. Learn how to use handplanes and spoke shaves and gouges and you will fix all mistakes your power tools make.

   Find and read good books on design (Wallace Nutting, Chippendale, Frige, Gottshall). Learn proportion. Joinery and finish gets you only so far. 

   I can't add much more to what is writtten above. Enjoy your hobby and come here whenever you like to ask questions. This is a great crew of people.

   Frank

   Frank

9. 
   emerckx | Jun 23, 2004 03:49am | #13

   Youngin,

   Lots of good advice in other replies. I would add that for repetitive cuts, don't measure, but use stops on your saw or fence. BTW 19 is not young...I'm only 12....really. Been at this for 16 years or so.

   Mike

10. 
    BArnold | Jun 23, 2004 05:19am | #14

    The other responses cover most of the territory.  The only thing I can add is to understand what your CAD program might be doing in rounding of values.  I've seen errors in very well-done AutoCAD drawings where, due to the rounding parameters defined in the setup, mismatches of 1/32" are not unusual.  Take a couple or more of these in sequence and you've got a noticeable mismatch in your cut pieces.

    Bill Arnold

    B&B Woodworking

11. 
    RANGERP75R | Jun 23, 2004 06:27am | #15

    youngin

       Agree with Ben as to measure twice and if you still have doubt, measure until you don't. I usually lay out and measure in the mornings while the mind is fresh. Prefer to make cuts at that time also an save the more remedial task for latter as the mind starts to wonder.

      Also agree with nikkiwood on story sticks. Hard to foul it up with that one as long as you don't allow your mind to drift to left field. If you have any distractions in the shop, get rid of them. This is important in my opinion, especially before you measure and make a cut.

    Regards...

    sarge..jt

    Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

12. 
    Steinmetz | Jun 23, 2004 01:42pm | #17

    Nick, Try to make all the mistakes early on in your career.

    That way, you'll find theres many ways to do the same job.

    I'll bet if all the "Woodies" (a k a Knotheads)  out there

    (You all know who you are) acknowledged

    just one' Boner,' we could continue this thread indefinitly.

    So as not to distance myself from the rest, let me think of any I may have made??????????????????????????  Well nothing comes to mind   OH! yes,  The marriage to my first wife.  Stein 

    Her name was Brunhilde.

13. 
    Dave45 | Jun 23, 2004 05:04pm | #18

    Good Morning Nick and welcome.  Your post caught my eye since I'm also a Mechanical Engineer and AutoCad driver.  The major difference between us is 40 years. - lol

    A couple of thoughts regarding those pesky "errors" that creep into your (our) projects.

    • Your CAD program is capable of precision levels that you'll never attain in the shop unless you have CNC machinery.  I can set AutoCad up to show + 1/128", but there's no way I can actually measure that closely.
    • I "build" every project in the computer including every cut and print out "working drawings" to use in the shop.  As I progress thru the project, I continuously recheck my measurements and "tweak" the next cut(s) as necessary to compensate for the "errors" I've made so far.  These "tweaks" are typically + 1/16", or less.  I also update my drawings frequently so I always have an "as-built" for my files.
    • "Story sticks" are a godsend.  When I make one, I mark it with a Sharpie marker and keep it until the job is done.
    • Set up and make as many of your repetitive cuts as you can at the same time.  Having to duplicate a setup to recut a piece always introduces an error.
    • Never, never, never use the "hook" on a tape measure for a critical measurement.  If I need a 6" measurement, I usually slide the tape over and put the 10" line on my mark and make a new mark at 16".  Some folks won't use a pencil, but I get good results with a Pentel 0.7mm mechanical pencil.  I've tried the 0.5mm, but broke more lead than I used. 
    • Stay focused when you're in the shop.  When I start a saw, my world consists of the saw and the workpiece.  I often make a "practice" pass before I start the saw to make sure I'm balanced and in control at the beginning, middle, and end of the cut.  Shifting your stance or grip can result in a real mess if you aren't careful
    • Don't work when you're tired.  When I was 19, I don't think I ever got tired but I sure do now. - lol  My 'workday" includes short breaks every hour or so when  I shut everything down and get a cup of coffee (decaf, these days) or a drink of water.  I'll spend 5-10 minutes looking over what I've been doing and thinking about what I need to do next.

    I could go on, but this is already too long.  Two final things.......

    • Plan your work, and work your plan.
    • Measure twice and cut once. (If it's really critical, measure 3-4 times)

    
    

    ---

    Edited 6/23/2004 10:06 am ET by Dave

14. 
    ASK | Jun 23, 2004 11:20pm | #19

    Youngin,

    I also use cad and draw everything. As somebody already suggested, in the setup of the program, set the tolerance as small as you can. 1/128" if possible.

    I draw a plan, sections, elevations and any details I think I want/need. Dimension everything. I draw each piece sepatately and dimension it. I then draw a layout on the actual pieces of wood I am using and account for the saw blade thickness.

    I then write down how to cut the pieces. and number each cut in order.

    All this gives me a good sense of what I have to do and helps avoid mistakes.

    Now the trick is transferring these measurements to the pieces of wood. As has been suggested, use a straight ruler, not a tape measure.

    The only other reminder I can give you is if you make any changes in the drawings, don't forget to make the changes on all parts of the drawing. I did this recently and had to cut down the width of 6 drawers which had already been assembled by 1/2"

    Good luck

    ASK

1. 
   macalex | Jun 24, 2004 03:00pm | #23

   All the good advice you'd expect from a crew like this, and all of it useful and appropriate ... but

   I wonder about training. Those of us who are self taught (and I'm guessing you are, pretty much), and may not even have actually seen any or many time-served tradesmen at work, let alone worked with one, sometimes don't know what the 'right' way is to do things. We find a way that seems to work, and we do it that way. We have the gear, sometimes the best gear there is, but have never learned the basic skills ... and in the end it's technique and not steel or carbide that makes the difference.

   A trade training is about systems, and processes, and repetitive actions that hard-wire eye-hand coordination. There's no short-cuts, autocad is not a substitute, and machinery doesn't make you foolproof.

   How does this help? I'm not sure it does! You're an engineer. Apply an engineer's analysis. Think systems and processes. But remember - the best furniture makers, ever, came from traditional apprenticed backgrounds.

   Good luck, go well

15. 
    Jellyrug | Jun 24, 2004 01:11am | #20

    Youngin,

    Enjoyed your post as it makes me look back.

    When I was 19, my father was a master craftsman at woodwork. He tolerated no mistakes and was an absolute perfectionist. I did some work with him as a kid, learnt a lot but the strict perfectionism scared me away. Must say, he was very strict, but fair. The first mistake was OK, but a repeat not.

    So, at 19, it was stay away from dad, enjoy motorcycles and girls and then there was this responsibility to pass college, also Mechanical Engineering.

    To make a long story short, I graduated and got my masters in Europe, later found my way into management and now I'm Americanized with woodwork as the number one hobby.

    About the measuring mistakes, I believe a lot has been covered to help, but this is what I do:

    1.) If I make a mistake, I remember my father and get very tough with myself.

    2.) I only measure with a tape or ruler if I have to.

    3.) Any precision fit is cut a bit bigger and then trimmed ever so slightly, until I get the perfect fit. A pencil is the most inaccurate tool around.

    4.) For any repetitive measurements, I always use either a jig, or stops on my equipment.

    5.) When I have to measure, specially if I have to add, subtract, or calculate angles, I always work in the metric system, as every millimeter adds up and you don't have to think. I use both a tape and ruler, with inches at the top and mm at the bottom. I only use inches when it comes to the 4/4, 8/4 stuff, or when I use the tapes on my machines, which are all imperial.

    6.) I also use Autocad, but will complete the drawings only until I have enough information for myself to use in the shop. When I do, I work in inches and religiously stick to woodwork dimensions. 4/4, I use 13/16 and 8/4, will be 1 13/16 etc. All other dimensions I will round off, adding up to a total dimension, which is rounded exactly to whole inches. If I'm pushed I'll round off to 1/2".  In the shop, wood dimensions which differ from the drawing 4/4 etc. are compensated by sticking to the overall whole dimensions.

    7.) Finally, we are all human and it's OK to make mistakes.

    Willie J Martins

    CA Central Valley

16. 
    datachanel | Jun 24, 2004 03:46am | #21

    Hello and welcome,

    I'm a little bit older than you at 24 and am currently pursuing an MFA in Technical Theater Production and so I do all my construction drawings in CAD.  I also have to deal with the undergrads who then build off of my plates.  Here are a couple items that  I don't believe have been mentioned yet.  First your marking utensil, use a sharp pencil or knife so that there is no doubt as to where you are supposed to cut. Also "crows feet" or arrows are useful since you know that the point is exact and you don't have to remember which end of the hash mark you just made is where you want to be.  Also familiarity with your tools is important, so that you know exactly where to line it up.  I no longer bother using a square to draw the whole line on a board to be cut, just one crows foot.  Also, as has been mentioned, jigs are wonderful, take the time to make them right and they will serve you well.  Setting up to mill multiple pieces at once is not only faster, but more accurate as well.  Good luck.

    Datachanel

    Doing things the hard way

1. 
   Fingrs | Jun 24, 2004 07:36am | #22

   Ok, dude, this is going to seem totally off the wall.  At the ripe old age of 50 I was diagnosed with attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder.  Actually, I figured it out and got confirmation from reliable sources.  Now I take medication (I try not to call them "drugs") and my life is totally changed...especially my woodworking. 

   If you happen to be one of those kids that got diagnosed with ADHD in school (got bored, attention strayed, etc. but not necessarily a behavior problem), don't think it's goes away.  It doesn't.  You just compensated (computers are great for that!). 

   Some of my prior problems in woodworking included difficulty transferring measurements from drawings to the material, and not taking time to think through each cut.  I often didn't "ease in" on critical cuts, as others have suggested.  I didn't deal with mistakes when they happened but tried to correct later (it's really hard to build an accurately out-of-square drawer!).  Somehow I was always in a rush to get the project done...but "done" didn't usually equate to "finished".

   My ultimate compensation was to slow down and realize that precision is needed at each step...rushing things only wastes wood.  And if you're going to waste wood, try to ruin only a couple of board feet rather than the entire project!

   The other suggestion I might offer (assuming the others are not helpful) is TURN OFF THE RADIO!!!  Music is wonderful, but distracting.  I think (my opinion) it competes with the same part of the brain we use for organizing spatial relationships, which is critical to good woodworking.

   Have fun and let us see some of your work when you're ready! 

17. 
    CajunDan | Jun 24, 2004 03:44pm | #24

    Hi, Nick

    Its great that you got such an early start. Wish I had. Your shop sounds awesome.

    It is hard to give you specific advice without seeing how you work, but several possibilities come to mind.

    First, if you think like an engineer, you might be expecting engineering tolerences, not woodworking tolerances. Wood is an elastic medium, and measurements change as soon as it is cut. Some engineers have better luck when they loosten the tolerences somewhat. Plus or minus 1/64" is is as close to perfect as most can measure. (Not fit, measure).

    A second common mistake is assuming plans are accurate. Don't try to cut out a piece according to plans and have it fit. Instead, use the plans as a guideline and cut your piece to fit what it has to fit. This is how most handtool woodworkers work.

    Third, use a marking knife, not a scribe or pencil. Use the same ruler for every measurement, if possible.

    If you are experiencing what my teachers used to call careless mistakes, start writing down every measurement and double checking before cutting. Thak the marked, but uncut piece to your work to see if the cut makes sense.

    Most of all, have fun.

    Dan

18. 
    DougF | Jun 24, 2004 05:28pm | #25

    Hi Nick,

    Your introduction caused to me to reflect on my own work and, while I'm far from 19, I experience the same problem.  For me, it is that I'm mentally several steps ahead of where my hands are.   Despite accurate drawings and extensive shop notes, most of my mistakes come when I get ahead of myself.

    Others have addressed this well and it bears repeating: focus on the cut in front of you and nothing else. 

    But I think there is one other really important lesson, also expressed in different ways by fellow Knot'ers: you've got to keep in mind why you are doing this thing called woodworking.  For most of us, this is not the way we make our living; rather, it is an expression of our desire to create something of which we can take pride, others may appreciate, and something that might survive us.  If our avocation causes us more than the momentary frustrations that we all experience from time-to-time, then we should question why we pursue this endeavor.  This is art, the medium is an imperfect material, and we are human.  When we can reconcile and incorporate all of these limitations into our work, I suspect this is when we are closing in on mastery. 

    You've got a great start and welcome to Knots.

     Doug