New Jointer- Recommendations anyone?
CRAIGCONEY_M | Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I am in the market for a new jointer. I will have to settle for a 6″ as I presently do not have the space to posess an 8″ machine. I have narrowed my possibilities down to the Jet JJ-CSX-6 or the Delta 37-195. I am not swayed by either company’s reputation. I would appreciate any feedback with your experiences.
Thanks
Craig
Replies
Craig,
This is just my opinion, but I'd go for the Jet. I really dislike those levers for adjusting the tables. Even a bad screw is easier to use and more accurate then those levers.
Don
Craig,
I would go with the Jet. It's a better designed machine. The 6 inch Delta jointer appears to have been a real after thought in their design process. The fence movement mechanism is much inferior to the Jet. Also, take a look at Grizzly. Grizzly tools suffer from the reputation of being bargain basement equipment. But their line of jointers is very good. I believe that each line of their equipment is designed and manufactured in a different factory. The joiner design and execution is several cuts above their other lines and you get a very good machine for the price. The fit and finish of my 6" Grizzly is extremely good.
Rich
Craig,
I've had the Jet 6" for 2 years and would recommend it. I had a slight problem with the on-off switch when I first used it. Jet sent me a new one immediately, after just a phone call. GP
I've owned the Jet 6" closed-stand planer for two years..just put my second replacement set of knives on it.
Other than switching it to 220, I've had to do no work whatsoever. Dust collection seems very important; if you don't run the dust collector every time you use this, you'll have to clear things out....not good.
Otherwise, it's easy to adjust, knives are easy to replace, fit and finish are nice..a great jointer. Now, if it was only 12 inches wide.....smile.
lp
I own the delta 6", and although its a great machine, I think the powermatic 6" is better. It has a longer bed, and a great height adjuster. The price is $749.
TDF
Craig,
Are you absolutely, positively, 100%, beyond all doubt sure you don't have room for an 8" machine?
In addition to the wider cut, you get a longer table and fence. I bought a 6" Jet and it's OK, but I really wish I had a bigger machine.
Jeff
I got the Jet 6" 2 years ago because of opinions expressed here. Have not been sorry. It does what I need.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Mike,
I'm SHOCKED.... after all the free press I've given you... well!!!
Seriously, with the short fence on the 6" machine it really gets difficult to work with anything longer that 4-5'. It's similar to trying to rip sheet goods with a 28" fence - you can get the job done, but it requires a lot of extra effort. A saw equipped with a long fence just makes the job a lot easier. The 8" jointer does much the same thing with its longer fence.
BTW, I believe Grizzly's fences and tables are longer than most.
Jeff
I said it did what I need, which is never anything over 6" wide and rarely over 4' long. My total usage probably would average out to less than 15 minutes per day.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Jeff,
I'd really love to have an 8" machine, but I am already tripping over stuff in my shop. Right now, I realize this will be an interim machine.
Here's my situation: I'm a telecom casualty - since October 2001, and my hobby is becoming my income, so for now I need to get what I call 'interim' machines that I can be comfortable with in my shop (aka 3 car garage) & be able to park them in my allowable space. Until I have enough income to warrant paying rent on a decent size shop for real machines. I live in an area with a strong HOA, and have to house my vehicles inside most of the time. More motivation to make lots of money for a new shop.
craig, what kind of work are you doing to produce income? I ask because I've been wondering lately what direction to go in when considering what to get good at. I tend to favor case goods (having completed only one project, by the way)and can't really see myself producing small gee gaws. Just wondering..
bill
I started by making a kitchen for a friend, I am working on 36 cabinets- shaker style hard maple face frames, rail & stile, milk painted beadboard panels, antiqued cherry beadboard backing in upper cabinets with antique glass doors. Needless to say, this is turning into an eternal project with the changes being made during construction.
I also am doing entertainment centers, closet organizers, and working on armiors for scrapbookers.
Another market which I have had success in is control panel modifications-the type used in dispatch centers and utilities. Many of the manufacturers aren't in business any more, so I get the work for making new inserts and modifying exisitng panels for communications and computer upgrades.
My original intention was to do small stuff, but the larger case good market is going well, so I am going where the money is.
craig.. thanks for taking the time to satisfy my curiosity about the market for case goods. It's good to know that if I get any good at this I might be able to monetize it if my day job goes sour (and heaven knows anything can happen). When it comes to charging for projects I guess you figure the cost of materials, add a percentage to that, then decide what your time is worth and add up the hours, right? I was looking through a Restoration Hardware catalogue the other day and they have some really nice tables, desks, cases etc featured. It's discouraging because you look at the work and then the price and you think.. "man, I can't make that for that price." Margins must be pretty thin in that biz, eh?
bill
Bill,
What I gather from reading about pricing, rule of thumb is to take your materials and multiply by 3, add 15% for finishing to that. So far, that has come out fairly close to what an hourly rate of $45/hr plus materials for the jobs I have done. Seems to be the $45 mark on average.
As far as resotration peices, I am not sure what the margin is, but I know that when it comes to price, I can't compete with an automated machine. Likewise, a machine cannot compete with my quality and workmanship. It all comes down to what is your customer willing to pay?
If you want to make tables, etc. check out Matthew Burak,( I think) they sell table and apron kits, all you do is add the top. There could be a good margin in that.
Thanks, craig. I truly do appreciate all the information. You seem to be making a successful transition from pro to craftsman!
bill
Reading I've done (on forums like this one) seems to indicate that Jet's customer service runs rings around Delta. I can say, from personal experience, that Jet's CS is very, very good (I restored an old Jet saw). Can't testify about Delta -- I have two of their machines, but have not had to call them.
I have the Jet 6" jointer, but haven't used it as much as others posting to this thread. So far, so good though.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
F.G.,
My shop is mostly white too, and I'm glad. I've had to contact Jet several times these last four years (twice concerning things I broke, which they replaced for free!!!) Their customer service can't be beat.
Sad to say, Delta won't even return a call or email. I think service is a very important aspect when deciding what machine one will purchase. If it doesn't work, for what ever reason, all the advertising, tool reviews, recommendations, and reputation mean nothing. At that point all that matters is getting that machine up and going again. Jet has gone far beyond my expectations in this regard, and Grizzly's done a good job too.
Jeff
Ive had the Jet 1hp 6" for about a year now was looking at the delta and almost got it but Im very happy with the Jet . Set up was easy nothing really to adj the only adj was the fence and that was fairly easy... for 500 bucks its a great tool Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I have the Powermatic 54A long bed 6" jointer. I cannot see why I need an 8". I do not buy twisted boards.
The 54A has a bed that is 66" (I think) long, which is about the length of an 8" jointer. I find it an excellent machine at a great price.
If you don't have the room for th elong bed, I agree that the Jet is a good machine also.
Mike
I'm surprised to hear the shots against Delta service. I've called them twice for issues and parts for a portable planer that I've had for 11 years. I can't say enough good things about them. The only drawback is the price of parts is utterly ridiculous but then, they are for my truck too!
I've had a Jet 6" jointer for about 9 years that I bought second hand. It's a great tool. I wish I had an 8"though!
Kell
Jamie -
> ...Jet's customer service runs rings around Delta.
Are you dealing directly with Delta or with the retailer/local purveyor? I deal almost exclusively with Eastside Saw here in Bellevue. They carry PM, Jet, Delta, Bosch .... most of the brand names we've come to know, love, and be envagelic over. They provide the customer service. Perhaps you recall my recent long-winded whine over the Unisaw I bought from them. They would have taken it back in a heartbeat if I had pressed the issue. Nothing to do with Delta. It's the local rep. that counts as far as I can tell.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Hi Dennis. I was speaking of what I'd read about Delta service -- see my disclaimer in my post. People who have needed to contact Delta directly, for parts or whatever, seem to have an incredibly difficult time getting a response or resolution to their problems.
I agree that a local dealer can solve many of these problems if they're customer-oriented (read: smart). My local dealer carries Jet, Powermatic and the Shop Fox mortiser. Will test his CS when I get the Jet dust collector!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The extent of my problems with Delta have been waiting for long periods of time on hold, and then when finally getting through I'm always put on hold again while whoever answered the phone could relay my questions to someone who had the answers to my questions. I've never had any serious repair problems or the like to deal with.
Don
There are two Delta employees who post on the power tool forum at workbench
magazine, there names are Rock2Car & Delta 007, they are very helpful with any Delta tool problem and more than go out of there way to help you correct the problem, soo if I ever had something wrong with my Delta equipment I would post there, Hey give it a try its worth a shot....
Happy Woodworking.... ToolDoc
> ....I was speaking of what I'd read about Delta service
Oh - I overlooked your disclaimer (g).
So far, so good. Nothing broken yet. When it does, I'll chuck the whole thing, drag the trailer down to Portland to Barbo's and pick up the General of my dreams.
Yeah, sure.... (g)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Ahhh, Dennis? Am I to understand you might know the best places to buy tools in Portland? forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
> ....Am I to understand you might know the best places to buy tools in Portland?
The people I dealt with from Barbo seemed quite knowledgeable and eager to be helpful. Pretty alright for sales people I guess. I just have their name in mind since they're the only General dealers I could find in the area. I guess there's one in Vancouver, too. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing given the rate of exchange. Dunno about duty bringing it back in, though.
Barbo also has pretty good selection of older machines of all kinds.
They also handle the big mondo CNC stuff, too. That stuff is scary!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
As a partial thanks for answering all my table-saw questions, I can tell you for certain that there is no duty on importing a General (made in Canada version, not General International) Tilting Arbor Table saw from Canada. I did all the research on doing so as part of my search for a General table saw. As the General brand (does not include General International) is made in Canada, it is exempt from duty per heading/subheading 8465.91.36 of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (2002) (Rev.4) Annotated for Statistical Reporting Purposes. What a mouthful. Per this guide, most varieties of General woodworking tools are exempt from duties per this schedule.
That's why you can get one from a Canadian store delivered to your house for $200 less than you can find it for at a US store before you add the sales tax and delivery. It took me a lot of time to figure it out, but I learned quite a bit in the process.
Paul
What about the sales tax business? We have one of the most (in my opinion) repressive sales taxes in the country. If I buy something in Portland OR. just across the border, and have it shipped to my house, the seller has to charge and pay WA state the sales tax. If I go down to Portland, I don't pay the sales tax. On big ticket items the savings will more than pay for the trip down. Coming back from Canada, would you have to declare the equipment and thus be subject to paying sales tax in your state if you had same?
Actually an academic question since I doubt if I'll be making such a move, - curious none the less. Vancouver's an even nice drive! (grin)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Wow, that sounds just wrong to me. Are you purchasing them in person at those locations, and just having them shipped to your home? If that was the case, I could see them collecting the tax. I don't think they have to do it, I think they are just doing it.
For example, if you order a computer from Gateway that costs $1000, they will charge you sales tax on that entire $1000 and send it to your state. Dell, on the other hand, will only collect sales tax on the value of the services provided to you in your state, which amounts to the service contract, which is for arguments sake, valued at $100 of the $1000 price of your PC. Assuming a 7% sales tax rate, the Gateway will cost you $1,070 and the Dell $1,007. The difference is $63. The reason I know this is that when I bought my first PC years ago, this is what made the dell cheaper than the Gateway.
The basic rule is something to the effect of that a state cannot charge sales tax on interstate commerce in which they have no physical location (stores). But if you were purchasing the product in that location and just having it delivered elsewhere, it really is not interstate commerce as you are making a purchase locally. I can't figure out why they would charge the WA tax, though. If I buy something in CT near the border, and have it shipped to my house in NY, they charge me the CT tax, not NY.
In the case of the Canadian issue, I do not have to pay sales tax to Canada for the purchase, nor do I have to pay a duty as it is a NAFTA protected purchase. I can't see how I would be committed to paying NY state sales tax, as I didn't buy anything in NY state. That would be equivalent to buying a car in Pennsylvania, driving it home and then paying NY State sales tax on the purchase. NY state would certainly love to do that to me, but it is not currently the law.
Hope this helps.
Paul
Maybe I miss-spoke... If I go to Oregon (physically enter the store and make eye contact with someone and physically hand money and walk out of the store with the item) to purchase something, I don't pay the WA state sales tax. But, as I understand it, if I buy something from a dealer in Portland and have it shipped by common carrier, then I have to pay the WA state sales tax.
Don't ask me, I don't make the rules! (grin) Don't care for them any more than the next person.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
We have the same nonsense in Michigan, only more confusing. If I buy something at Menards (just across the river in Wisconsin) I have to pay Wisconsin sales tax on it. If they deliver it to my house, I have to pay Michigan sales tax which is 6% as opposed to Wisconsin's 5%.
If I buy something by mail order or internet and the company is in state, I have to pay sales tax at the time of purchase. If the company is out of state, I pay no sales tax at the time of purchase, but I must declare all such purchases on my state income tax form, and pay the tax when I file.
Who else but politicians with too much time on their hands could come up with such a bunch of hokum?
Jeff
that sales tax crap is some true grade A nonsense.
Hi Dennis,
No, you didn't make any mistakes. My explanation was rambling and trying to cover too many things at the same time. JeffK's post explains it all pretty well. The way it works up there in the north, it appears the states must be very strict about collecting the taxes. The only thing they are that strict around here is the sales tax on cars, and they only charge that because they have to pay it to register the vehicle with the state & get plates. Connecticut has such a "Sales & Use" line item on their returns like JeffK mentions, but I believe New York does not.
They get you either way. Ugggggh.
Paul
I've had the JET for about a year now. Put a link belt on it. Runs great, works great. Knives easy to change. Adjustments are pretty easy. It was my first jointer and I did not realize how much I would use it. As a result, I often find myself wishing I'd held out longer until I could afford an 8".
I have been reading these threads for sometime about jointers. It seems everyone wants an 8" jointer. After much ringing of hands and consternation, I purchased a Sunhill 8" machine, mobile base and pressed Sunhill for an extra set of blades. It arrived without any problems and did not require all of adjustmemts the scary stories tell on this web. I went through a checkout of all major adjustments in about 45 minutes and adjusted the fence (manuals suck, but they tell you that) and one of the four blades. It works wonders on edge joints with no perceptable line. I haven't falttened any rough stuff yet, but expect it to perform the same as it did on edges. The bed lenght is 70+".
It took $924 and a 220v plug to share the circuit with my air compressor. It sits in front of my seldom used RAS until needed. Space is getting very tight in my shop. Sidney was very pleasent and helpful.
Benny
Interesting to see a post on Sunhill. I ordered their catalogue a while ago when I was looking for a 12" jointer. The Delta was 3400 or 3900, can't recall. I opted for an older 12", from 1922 or so, at 2500, and love it. Very heavy. POss. about 1500 lbs, and a bear to get in the basement. Wonder how the other Sunhill equip. is?
The Sunhill 8" jointer weighs in at about 510 pounds. It was finished well but they put two bolt down flanges on the ends of the base to bolt to the floor and they got in the way of setting it in the mobile base. Since I had some captive help at the time we built up the base and bolted the base down to the build up. Sidney sent me an email and suggested that I cut off the flanges and set the jointer down into the mobile base for better stability. I'll have to do that when I have captive help again to lift that heavy bugger off the mobile base. I have done some work with the machine and it is a dream. I choose the Sunhill because it has a four knife cutter head, long tables and a great price. So far I am very satisfied with the results the machine gives me and the quick feedback from (Sidney) Sunhill.
Benny
From their literature, as I recall it, they use a number of different shops for their various tools. I believe that most of the WW equip. sold in the US, under whatever name, is made in the Far East. Using different shops for their special skills seems a decent buisness model. Longevity of any given shop is something about which I know nothing, but could impact a replacement part. I was told by someone that Taiwan shops were far superior to Chinese shops, but I have no knowledge. Glad you got a good one!
One of the things I found interesting about my old beast is that it uses off the shelf bearings, knives, etc., so that repair is pretty inexpensive. When I bought it , I had the fellow deliver it (he is a used mach. dealer), and he put in new bearings, which I am sure that I will not have to change out in my lifetime. They are open bearings, running in about 4-6 oz. of oil in a little kettle with zurk. Most of the used larger stuff is 3 phase, but this is a 3 hp. single pahse. I am going to have to get a phase converter for other big tools, however, as many are direct drive, including possibly the Oliver TS which I lust after.
I have a Sunhill 8" jointer, it's a great machine for the money. The fit and finish is acceptable, nothing to rave about, but the important stuff all works great.
This is the same jointer that Jet sells, made by the same factory in taiwan. The jet is something like 66" on the bed, while the sunhill is 72". The extra yardage comes from some bolt on cast iron extensions.
the cutterhead is another differentiator, it features 4 knives vs 3 for most jointers, so you get higher CPI than other machines, 18,000 cpi to be exact. The motor is 2hp 220v only, and a good magnetic switch is included.
The included instructions are something to laugh at, and I'm not exaggerating, but how much direction do you really need to operate a jointer? The assembly is cake, the machine comes in 2 pieces and it takes about 30 minutes to set it up... it would probably take 15 minutes if the instructions on wiring the switch were a little clearer. From the factory, the cutterhead and other adjustments are right on... at least enough to get started with.
No vibrations from this 500 lb. machine, a nice long bed, plenty of fence and lot's of power, all at a price comparable to 6" jointers from the others. On top of that, Sydney is a great person to work with and they don't jerk you around on shipping, if I recall correctly, I had my jointer a week after I ordered it.
I will buy from sunhill again, I'm already looking at one of their edge sanders.
I bought the jet 6" jointer about 2 1/2 years ago. I too have a small (3 car garage) shop I use for piano rebuilding and miscellaneous woodworking. When I had a larger shop, I had an 8" jointer (PM), but just really couldn't see where I would put it and still have adequate floor space in my smaller shop.
I have been very happy with the jet. When I first got it, it vibrated pretty badly with a dfectively made belt, but after replacing it with a link belt, it runs extremely smoothly and quietly, is easy to adjust, and makes glass smooth cuts (as long as I keep the knives sharp! After 2' 1/2 years I am just to the point where I am going to have to sharpen the knives or put in one of the extra sets they sent me....but I have done a lot of hardwood (maple, oak, ash etc.) on this little jointer!) It is a great little unit. I was very happy with Jet's customer service too. They have always sent me warranty parts within a couple of days, no hassle.
I have 6 jet machines in my shop and am very happy with all of them. The bigger, more expensive tools like the cabinet saw and 15" planer seem to be more substantially built and have more work put into them then those around the $500. category like the drill press and jointer, but they are all excellent tools. I also have their 12" disk, 6" belt sander which is just a marvelous machine and very accurate and well made.
I would not hesitate to buy Jet, and I think you will be very happy with the 6" jointer. By the way, when I got it, it came with two sets of extra knives.
Most of the equipment I had in my larger shop (which I sold when I closed it) was powermatic. I think my jet equipement is as good, and in many ways better, than the powermatic I had.
Like with any power tools, it took a little while to get the jet tools "fine tuned" and get familiar with their quirks and comfortable with them. The main problems were very minor and mainly consisted of bad belts, including a puckered sanding belt on the belt sander. There was also some minor shipping damage, but that was not Jet's fault and they had the replacement parts to me within a couple of days.
Edited 9/22/2002 1:20:24 PM ET by THINKERF
FWIW,
I spent some time at the Windsor Chair shop in Lincolntown, ME this year. The shop turns out tables and chairs, enough to keep 12 folks busy full time. Get this: NO JOINTER anywhere in the shop. They have a jig (think taper jig with no taper) that runs on the TS and out the extension table, and a 12" planer to square up the lumber. I asked about milling out twist, and they said they cut twisted boards into small pieces. Owner feels a jointer is too dangerous. Really incredible that that much work never uses a jointer.
John
I bought a jet TS from my local dealer and after spending several hours assembling it, I discovered it was missing 40 some odd small parts. I called my dealer and the only options he gave me was to package the unit back up and return it, or deal with jet directly myself. I was pretty angry as the prospect of waiting weeks or months for a company that would most likely not even return my call. I sent an email with a list of missing parts and a jet employee called me the very next day, and I had my parts before the weeks end. Jet handled my problem even though Im sure that the missing parts happened after it arrived at my dealer.
After I saved enough money for a new jointer, I switched dealers but stayed with Jet, a company who truly values and understands the concept of the lifetime value of customers.
Regards
Jeff Walker
I had problems with a new Unisaw last year, and Delta was fabulous in the way they worked it out. After sending me 2 replacement switches, and a fence part, the local rep from Delta came by and simply replaced the saw with another new one. I haven't had a single problem with the replacement saw.
I would have rather had the machine be right from the beginning, but Delta did everything they could without dickering about it and made things right.
Have you thought of a Grizzly 8" jointer? I had the luxury of trying one out before I bought it. I ordered one for my work and abused it for a while. It worked great. I also posted a message on this forum asking for recommendations. Needless to say I purchased the 8" beast and have been happy ever since. For $650.00 what a steal.
Good luck!
Steve
Craig,
Have you looked at the York machines Wilke Machinery is selling now? Just read a review of their 15" planer which was quite favorable. The prices seem hard to beat.
They've got a 6" cabinet style jointer (a demo) with mobile base on sale right now for $329.
Jeff
Edited 9/16/2002 11:14:28 PM ET by Jeff K
Edited 9/16/2002 11:37:57 PM ET by Jeff K
I must say, this thread has really got me thinking. I originally intended to go with a 6" Jet or Delta, but with all the regrets of not holding out for an 8" has me trying to figure out where I could squeeze one in.
So I am back to square one now on the jointer. I know I will have a larger shop in about 3-4 months, can I live with an 8" jointer in my limited space until then?
Decisions....Decisions...
Craig,
I don't know about living with an 8" machine right now, but I do know that when you move into your new shop with more room you'll be kicking yourself for years if you don't byt it.
Is it possible to rent/lease a 6" for a few months?
Jeff
I've owned the Delta model for 4 years now. It doesn't impress the he!! out of me because it's just not machined well (freakin' Chinese-made crap). Adjusting anything is very chunky. To do it over again, if I could get the Jet for the same or less $, I'd get the Jet.
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