Replies

1. 
   Boss_Crunk | Aug 24, 2010 04:47pm | #1

   They do not offer amazing performance and you aren't missing much of  anything IMO.  I owned a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw and to be perfectly honest I like the Crown closed-handled dovetail saw or just about anybody's $30 or less gent's saw a lot better.  I sold the L-N with nary a tear shed.  It was the hardest to start saw I've ever used and I frankly didn't feel like changing my technique to suit the saw.  That's the tail wagging the dog.  I've cut a few dovetails before.

   Get a small frame saw from these guys (not a turning saw), best saw for cutting tenons there is:

   http://stores.ebay.com/CME-Handworks-Inc

1. 
   9619 | Sep 05, 2010 07:03am | #8

   Charles,

   I was inspired by the old photos of Tag Frid making dovetails with his bow saw   -- that is, I was inspired to see what different saws could do in the dovetailing arena.       I have tried gentlemans saws, Lie Nielsens, the new Lee Valley ones with the plastic handles, a chain saw, an angle grinder with a small chain saw attachment, a 26" rip saw, a hack saw with a metal cutting blade, etc etc etc.    Don't get me wrong,  all told, this hasn't amounted to more than a few hours of fun over the years.  And it always turns into a fun group activity.  Others who are watching want to try!!!!!     There are lots of ways to have fun in woodworking,  (besides making furniture).           

   Have fun.   Woodworking isn't just for furniture makers anymore. 

   Mel

2. 
   jg0258 | Aug 25, 2010 03:53am | #3

   I think no one can answer this but yourself. My experience with LN saws is the opposite of what has been posted so far. Like you I started with a cheap japanese dozuki saw, and I liked it so much I went and bought the saws sold by BCT. Curios to see what the hoopla was about western saws I went and bought the LN dovetail and carcase saw. Well, after getting them I would not use anything else to cut tenon shoulders or dovetails. Many people complain that they are hard to start, I found that if you are holding a death grip on the saw and try to push down too hard, yeah, they are hard to start. If you instead use a light touch and let the saw do the work they are fantastic, easy to start and very fast. 

   In my case I found the grip of the western saw more comfortable than the japanese saws, and the grip of the LN saw fits me very well, this might not be the case for you. In the end, it might be best if you go to one of the LN shows and try a few of them. 

3. 
   gdblake | Aug 25, 2010 08:32am | #4

   The saw's configuration makes it a top performer

   Jay:

   The rip teeth are unique on the LN 16" tenon saw when compared to their other backsaws.  The 14" rip tenon saw has 10 ppi with no rake , the 16" has 11 ppi  with 5 degrees of rake for smoother cutting and easier starting, and a thiner sawplate.  The 4" of plate beneath the brass back encourages letting the saw hang at a natural 90 degrees to the floor helping you to make square cuts.  The hang of the saw's tote makes the saw feel toe heavy until it is put to wood, then the hang helps the teeth stay down in the cut without any downward pressure from the user.  The performance of this saw is definitely better when compared with their other rip saws.  The saw tracks true, is smooth cutting, and wants to hang straight down.  The tote is very comfortable to boot.  This saw is everything I dreamed it would be over a year ago when I gave Tom the specs for a custom tenon saw that worked so well it quickly became the company's standard 16" tenon saw.  Once you try one out, I believe you will be able to answer your own question.

   gdblake

4. 
   RMillard | Aug 25, 2010 09:55am | #5

   I'd say yes, it does make a difference

   Jays,

   I have a LN carcass saw (which I use for dovetails)  and a tenon saw. The carcass saw is really no better than the $10 Stanley dovetail saw I have. On the other hand I have a Stanley back saw  that doesn't even come close to the LN tenon saw. I sharpened both of them myself, so it is an equal comparison from that standpoint, because out of the box the Stanley was very poorly sharpened. 

   I agree with Boss, it is a bit difficult to start the saw.

   Rob Millard

   http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

1. 
   JayS | Aug 24, 2010 04:50pm | #2

   Saws

   Rob,

   I sent you a direct email with some photos which I also posted in the gallery of those Federal Knife cases.  I'd be very interested in your thoughts and thanks again for your advice.  About the saw, I have a frame saw and maybe I don't have it tensioned enough but it seems too big and awkward in my hands, and the blade seems to flex too much. I get better results with a back saw.  I know that Veritas has produced a dovetail saw which has gotten excellent reviews and may start more easily, but I don't think they have a tenon version yet.  Adria also makes one I believe.  Any other comments on that?

   Thanks.

   Jay

5. 
   derekcohen | Aug 25, 2010 12:20pm | #6

   I use my dovetail saw filed with rip teeth for small tenons, or a dozuki. Again, the dovetail saw was a $40 saw that I re-filed and sharpened myself, and it works pretty well. Sometimes I do it on the table saw or band saw, and then plane to fit the mortise.  Is the performance so amazing on these high end hand saws that I am missing something? Thanks.

   Hi Jay

   Firstly, no one needs a lot of specialised tools to build most things. Frankly I have and can saw decent tenons and dovetails with just about any type of saw you could name. However this does not mean that I would recommend this to others.

   By-and-large there are guidelines in choosing tools that make sense. In the case of sawing tenons, using a 15 tpi dovetail saw is really not optimal! This is going to be a slow process, and this slowness increases the likelihood of inaccurate sawing. What you want is a longer saw plate with less teeth. That is why a tenon saw is typically between 12" - 16" in length, and around 11 tpi. I tend to use a 11 tpi 14" vintage Nurse for smaller tenons and a new 10 tpi 16" Wenzloff saw for larger tenons. I have long since stopped using a 12" vintage Disston as the shorter length now feels slow and less steerable.

   There is no rule that says that you should buy expensive tools. I am advocating choosing the correct tool for the job. New tools made by manufacturers such as LN are going to be more expensive that something mass produced in China or a Vintage saw picked up at a swapmeet. Given time, I have no doubt that all could be filed and tuned to work identically, but that is what you should be paying for from a saw from LN  -  that is, it not just works out of the box, but that the level of tuning is of a high order.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

6. 
   Splinter1 | Sep 01, 2010 02:19pm | #7

   Lie Nielson saw

   It really depends on the amount of hand work you are doing. I have bought  both cross-cut & rip dovetail "Lie Nielson" saws and I love them. Compared to the Crown and Pax saws I was using. The price is not cheap but it will last me forever! The cuts are easier, faster, and more accurate, which also means more predictable cuts. I also recently broke down and just purchused a 50 degree #4 Smoothing bench plane (Iron not Bronze), a 60 1/2 low angle block plane and a small router plane from him. A lot of money!!! but it is my life. It is what I do. What I am! Plus they are made in America! Putting Americans to work. They are the best quality hand tools out there and will not depreciate (if taken care for), and will have to enjoy the res of my days. So again, It is up to you if it is worth it or not.