Replies

1. 
   mikegagne | Jun 13, 2005 07:01am | #1

   The Hitachi saws are still the better choice over the Makita-smoother and more accurate. I have not used the Metabo saw but like some of their other products. I have recently used the 1013 and the CF10 on the same job and the Hitachi was clearly a better quality machine. Aloha, Mike

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 13, 2005 03:15pm | #2

   When you say the Hitachi was a "better quality" machine (than the Makita), could you be more speciifc?********************************************************
   "I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
   -- Herb Caen (1916-1997)

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 14, 2005 04:27am | #3

   Bump ...........Isn't the Metabo on anybody's radar screen?********************************************************
   "I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
   -- Herb Caen (1916-1997)

1. 
   hammer1 | Jun 14, 2005 09:30pm | #5

   I've got this thread marked "High Interest" but I have no experience with the new saw. I have owned; Stanley hand miter box, Rockwell chop miter, Delta Sawbuck, Craftsman compound miter saw, Hitachi 8" slider, Hitachi 10" slider, Makita 10" chop, Bosch 3915 10" slider. I just had to put new bearings in the Bosch and I don't think it's going to last much longer, time for a new one. I have a good dozen 10" slider blades that I would like to keep. I've been looking hard at the various saws out there, if Dewalt made a 10" slider, I would have bought it by now.There are a couple of things about the Metabo that I would like to see. The dust collection below the table sound like genius, why didn't I think of that? I want to, easily, set the saw just a whisker off the detents. A micro adjust would be heaven but just free floating would be fine. I'd like to see a sturdy blade guard activation mechanism, not some little rub bearing. There are times when I want an accurate 45° bevel, and others when I want a little more. With most saws, you have to change the 45° bevel stop to get any extra. It sure would be nice to have positive stops on the bevel that you could over ride. Noise is another big factor with these saws, most are real screamers. I wish they would make some larger and wider tables. I like to attach sacrificial fences to my saw for repetitive cuts and for zero clearance backers. The factory fence needs to accommodate this. Readable, realistic scales would be a benefit. Add in a long, flexible cord and an electric brake that works and I'll buy one.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 15, 2005 06:36pm | #6

   24105.6 in reply to 24105.4 

   I've got this thread marked "High Interest" but I have no experience with the new saw. I have owned; Stanley hand miter box, Rockwell chop miter, Delta Sawbuck, Craftsman compound miter saw, Hitachi 8" slider, Hitachi 10" slider, Makita 10" chop, Bosch 3915 10" slider. I just had to put new bearings in the Bosch and I don't think it's going to last much longer, time for a new one. I have a good dozen 10" slider blades that I would like to keep. I've been looking hard at the various saws out there, if Dewalt made a 10" slider, I would have bought it by now.

   There are a couple of things about the Metabo that I would like to see. The dust collection below the table sound like genius, why didn't I think of that? I want to, easily, set the saw just a whisker off the detents. A micro adjust would be heaven but just free floating would be fine. I'd like to see a sturdy blade guard activation mechanism, not some little rub bearing. There are times when I want an accurate 45° bevel, and others when I want a little more. With most saws, you have to change the 45° bevel stop to get any extra. It sure would be nice to have positive stops on the bevel that you could over ride. Noise is another big factor with these saws, most are real screamers. I wish they would make some larger and wider tables. I like to attach sacrificial fences to my saw for repetitive cuts and for zero clearance backers. The factory fence needs to accommodate this. Readable, realistic scales would be a benefit. Add in a long, flexible cord and an electric brake that works and I'll buy one...

      Ya just doubled the COST!

2. 
   hammer1 | Jun 16, 2005 02:35am | #9

   Will,
   I would gladly pay double for a truly good saw, even more if they solved the inherent problems with SCMS's. I make my living with one by my side and I'm tired of replacing them every few years. I think there is a market for a professional/industrial model that performs better than the existing choices. I've already spent close to $1800 on previous models and I'm about to spend another $600. I can buy a Unisaw or a PM66 that will last a lifetime for that kind of money, let's have a SCMS that is in the same league.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

3. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 16, 2005 03:54am | #10

   I know from past threads that you have had a lot of serious machinery in your work life. But I am curious to know what you do with these SCMS that renders them useless to you after a couple of years. I probably don't use them as hard as you do, but my Makita slider in the shop hasn't blinked in maybe 6-8 years, except for the fence. And the old Hitachi 8 1/2" slider that I carry around for job site stuff was purchased when it was the only slider on the market -- which must make it almost 20 years old. I want to replace it mainly because it doesn't double bevel, but also because I think I deserve a new saw, and my SIL really wants the Hitachi -- so at least I know it will have a good home.I think the features you outline a few posts back would be great, but as far as performance is concerned, it's hard for me to imagine how they would make a saw that is dramatically superior to those int he existing crop. But that is also the reason I am birddogging this Metabo. These folks have had a lot of time to think about their design, and it will be interesting to see what they come up with. Judging by the product description, there's nothing very radical about it, but I am assuming they wouldn't bother unless they could produce a saw that was better than what exists now. But before I take the jump, I'd sure like to find someone who has already done so, and can tell me my assumptions are correct.********************************************************
   "I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
   -- Herb Caen (1916-1997)

4. 
   hammer1 | Jun 17, 2005 12:31am | #14

   I do a variety of work, primarily interior trim and cabinetry but I also frame and do exterior work. I use my saw for most everything that I can easily put on the stand. Much of the time, I'm working with hardwoods that can be prefinished. I need the capacity of a slider for stair treads and mitered skirts, wide baseboards, headers, shelves and many other wide or thick pieces. I also need delicate accuracy for cabinet parts, moldings and cuts like mitered returns. I'll put a picture below of some mitered return samples.Here are two examples of where most SCMS show their inaccuracies. Mitered panel doors. The moldings that are mitered around a panel and fit into a frame are restricted in all dimensions. They have to have tight miters, fit tight around a panel and the whole thing has to fit in a frame. Another typical cut for me is wide baseboard. When I wrap an outside corner with 45°'s, the corners are seldom a perfect 90° in either direction. I leave the piece long and place it to scribe up the corner. This marks the short point of the miter. I place the baseboard face down on the saw, leave the bevel at 90° and line up the angle with the scribe mark. When I set this non-perfect angle it can be a half of a line off the 0 detent or two and a half lines off. I then tip the saw at the desired bevel, again this may be 45° or 45.75°. Seldom does a saw track to the scribe line once it has been tipped. The little bit of slop in the head mounting, the guide rails and the blade mount, all add up when the saw is under the stress of a cut. Straight cuts at 90° are no problem but add a 45° bevel and the weaknesses come out. In the "olden days" I would have used "whittling" tools, block plane, rasp, sandpaper, etc. but you can't make money with them or have your work look like it wasn't doctored. In thinking about how many cuts I get out of a saw before it needs serious rebuilding or retirement, I can guess, by looking at something like the 6" oak headcasing in the picture. A typical house may have 40 doors, 2 heads per door, 2 miters on the casing, 2 miters each return and a straight cut. 6 cuts per head is about 500 cuts, just on door headcasings. Add in windows, extension jambs, baseboard, cap molding, wainscot, chair rail, crowns, insets, beds, undercab, fillers, cleats, shelves, stair parts, etc. and you have at least 5000 cuts per interior trim job. 15-20 projects per year, 3-4 years per saw, somewhere around a 1/4 million +- cuts.What goes wrong? Bearings, commutators, gears on the inside. Any annoyances on the outside you get tired of dealing with. I just replaced the bearings in my Bosch. Once inside, it was evident that most of the parts were just good enough, minimum standards. At the end of the drive shaft was a needle bearing pressed in a closed, cast race. This was the main problem. I wanted to upgrade to a better, sealed bearing but they only make them in the next size up. Bosch could have improved this weak spot with a 1mm increase and a few cents for a decent bearing. The wimpy twist gear at the end of the commutator was getting worn and the opposite end had the bearing in a rubber cup, in the thermoplastic housing. Not exactly a heavy duty set up. This is my main peeve with the current crop. Someone should offer a saw with some heavy duty components built for light industrial use. There are chop saws available with heavy components, Compi, CTD, Pistorius, Omega, I'm sure a better SCMS could be built. Saws are always changing and hopefully improving. There wasn't a dual bevel available when I bought my last one. This is a feature I have lived without, but would like to have. My current Bosch is outdated, it has some new parts but is still getting tired and I'm tired of it. The $545 price tag I saw on the Metabo makes me wonder if it's not much different than the others.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

   
5. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 17, 2005 03:49am | #15

   When I am doing stuff (like crown) that requires great precision, I carry along my ancient, cast-iron Delta -- mitres right and left, but no bevels. Since the Delta must weigh 75 lbs, I have considered a double bevel CMS -- and setting it up on its own stand, to supplement the SCMS. Have you considered that? Judging by the nature of the work in your pics (very nice, BTW), I am guessing you spend a fair amount of time at each site. If you don't have to carry the rigs away with you after each day, that might be a partial solution to your problem. On the other hand, you seem to be doing just fine with that Bosch slider, as crappy as it might be.********************************************************
   "I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
   -- Herb Caen (1916-1997)

6. 
   mikegagne | Jun 16, 2005 09:53am | #11

   I agree with you about the need for a real professionals CMS. A lot of the issues with replacement are the portability factor and needing to make a machine light emough to transport and powerful enough to do the job. I would keep mine in my shop all the time and there are machines made for that-pricey too but maybe worth it. I personally like the belt drive machines for their smoothness and soft start. I find Makita everything to be good mostly except for the stamped steel cooling fans they use in all their motors-as the things wind up the fan blades become sirens. Cast blades would make all the difference. Linear bearings in the slides would be good too but none of them like getting wet or having sawdust accumulateso instaead we get the capitive ball mechanisms. All of these changes would make a unit more expensive but I would go for it.....its my living and important to have a tool that performs consistently for years. Aloha, Mike

7. 
   Adrian | Jun 16, 2005 09:39pm | #12

   If you want serious, pro compound mitre saws (not sliders though that I'm aware of), they are available).....not cheap, but professional tools......Pistorious is one, and CTD (http://www.ctdsaw.com) is another.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

8. 
   mikegagne | Jun 17, 2005 08:13am | #16

   Pistorious is one, and CTD (http://www.ctdsaw.com) is another.Adrian, thanks for your reply. I am aware of these machines but even the lightest one is 150lbs which means not too portable. I would put a machine like that in my shop however. We also discussed why the mfg dont make just a little bit higher quality machine-better bearings etc- for the pros who have to use these machines constantly. The Hitachi gets my vote but even it could be improved. Aloha, Mike

9. 
   Adrian | Jun 17, 2005 03:30pm | #17

   Yup, I was responding to something you had said about 'a good one for the shop'; never meant to imply that you take one of the saws I mentioned onto a job site.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

10. 
    nikkiwood | Jun 16, 2005 09:39pm | #13

    I swung by the place where I buy tools today. I tracked down the boss and asked him if they were going to carry the new Metabo line of sliders. I assumed they would, since they carry just about every slider from every manufacturer, except Ryobi. As it happens, he went on a junket a few months back (paid for by Metabo) to look at their new sliders and the TS. He flatly refused to stock any of the 10" saws -- said they were flimsy (especially the sliding rails). He thought the "quality" level was close to Ryobi, even though they are priced at the premium level. He thought the 12" model was a little more substantial, but still not a very good saw. Apparently, Metabo is not doing any of the manufacturing themselves -- and have farmed out this line to some cheap outfit, and the result is about what you would expect. His theory is that Metabo wants to get into this market, and they have chosen to slap their name on what is basically an inferior product. Too bad. Still, this is only one person's opinion. But I have bought tools from this guy for years, and I trust his judgement --- a lot. He claims the two best sliders are still Makita or Hitachi.********************************************************
    "I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
    -- Herb Caen (1916-1997)

11. 
    nikkiwood | Jun 16, 2005 02:12am | #7

    Except for the dust collection below the blade, I would say you have described the Makita slider (1013)Certainly, it is easy to adjust the angle -- to one side or the other of the detent. My only complaint about the saw, and it is a mild one, is the fence needs to be adjusted occasionally, since it doesn't seem to hold up too well to the rigors of moving it into and out of job sites.I am intrigued with the new Metabo SCMS mainly because of the tank-like quality they build into their other tools. I'm still hoping that someone who has seen or used this saw will show up here with a comment.********************************************************
    "I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
    -- Herb Caen (1916-1997)

2. 
   mikegagne | Jun 14, 2005 07:48am | #4

   When you say the Hitachi was a "better quality" machine (than the Makita), could you be more speciifc?The slide mechanism was smoother than the Makita for one as was the motor and startup cycle at triggering. Out of the box (both machines were brand new) no calibration to zero was needed for the Hitachi for table vernier or compound angle. I being one of the senior guys had to calibrate the Makita and was asked to check the Hitachi because we were using them interchangeably. We all liked the Hitachi for its ergonomics a little more than the Makita. It was close but Hitachi won. I have 18 year old CF8 (the first compound machine) and was considering buying the Makita. I am getting a new CF10 for my shop when the construction is complete based upon this experience. I do wish I could try the Metabo though. Let us know what you think if you get one. Aloha, Mike

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 16, 2005 02:16am | #8

   Thanks for your clarification. I respect your views.........********************************************************
   "I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
   -- Herb Caen (1916-1997)