My shop has become too small, I am building a new one. It has been a one man shop, now I have apprentices and it will be a two persons shop.
A few things I am set on:
1) size: 50′ x 25′ including a 10′ x 25′ “clean” room. Plus a 20′ x 15′ lumber storage.
2) ceiling height 10′
3) dust collector ducts under the floor fully accessible.
4) 2″ foam insolation over the slab, 2″ wood floor over it.
5) windows placed high.
6) 20′ x 15′ porch with cement floor and clear roof.
7) metal roof.
Post scriptum:
8) dedicated blower to the table saw, goes on when the saw goes on, blows directly outside.
I will greatly appreciate all input.
C.
Edited 5/31/2006 6:53 am ET by citrouille
Replies
I'm curious about the need for insolation over the slab. What part of the country are in? What is the purpose of it?
I have lived in San Diego, Honolulu, and now Taiwan. That might give you an idea of why I have not run across such a thing before.
THanks.
David L.
I live in Massachusetts, it get pretty cold around here and I am pushing 60 !C.
At least two more feet on the ceiling height....
Boss,You would really go to 12' eh ?
As I said somewhere else it gets pretty cold in the winter here !
Please elaborate.C.
At least 12' I've found anything under that to be claustrophobic for a woodshop (especially one with employees running around). You need the volume and the height comes in handy if you decide to store wood vertically.
Copper pipe to all areas for compressed air. Don't forget the drip leg and drain.
I was planing on having air everywhere.
I would have neglected a drip leg and drain !
This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping for.Thanks,C.
100Amp Minimum/ 200Amp. Service preferable. More recepticals than you think you'll ever need. Convert as many stationary tool to 220 as possible, 220V units keep your panel legs ballanced. Leave leads in the panel box extra long so that when shop is up and running you can swap leads to breakers and ballance load on the panel. That will save a lot on electrical use because the meter reads the highest usage of the two main leads. Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Thanks,
Your reply went directly on my list.C.
That will save a lot on electrical use because the meter reads the highest usage of the two main leads.
Unfortunately, no. Motors use the same input power whether they are wired for 120V or 240V.
Meters record true power delivered through the service entrance conductors. There's no free lunch.
If what you said was true, there'd be a market for main panels that only draw 240V from the meter base, and then converts that with a stepdown transformer to 120V separately-derived circuits as needed.
BarryO, I Stand corrected ! Sorry. Meters read apparent power, Per My Utility meter repairman. I was told otherwise in the past and that stuck in the Noodle. Thanks for getting me to check it out and your info.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Meter reads the highest usage of the two leads.
Are you sure? Seems that would be illegal - a lot of power sold that is not delivered. What if I only have a 110 volt service? Am I charged double?
That one's already been retracted. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Electric meters, I guess I shouldn't have believed the story about Meters reading the high leg. Very interesting and informative WWW site here. http://www.answers.com/topic/electricity-meter
A day without learning is wasted.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Good that you are insulating your floor. I've had three shops: two uninsulated slabs and the last one insulated as you are planning...no comparison. Which reminded me...
What are you planning for heat? Since it sounds like your space will be continually heated, as you will have employees, i urge you to consider radiant floor heating (RFH). If i had it to do over again, i would install RFH per this article in the builder's magazine, "Journal of Light Construction".
Your shop size lends itself to a single zone, so the controls would be minimal and you can't beat the cost of the heating plant: a regular ol' hot water heater. Having heating under the slab means you can have those tall ceilings and not suffer at the ground level. You can put the gas-fired heater in the wood storage area to isolate it from dust.
If you go this route, you should also insulate the sides of the slab from 'heat leakage'. Putting a drainage layer of sand or gravel under the insulation is a step i've seen overlooked...make sure you have this.
Edited 5/31/2006 10:38 am ET by splintergroupie
I was hoping someone would come up with advice on heat.
Radiant heat makes a lot of sense, I like the idea of a gas water heater, I could put it in a small room with the compressor.Thanks,C.
I like the idea of a gas water heater, I could put it in a small room with the compressor.
Be aware that you have to have make-up air if you put a gas appliance in a small room, such as a closet. Sometimes a vented door will do it, but sometimes outside makeup air is required. Check with your local inspector on this...regulations vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Depending on electric costs, you might prefer a small, modulating on-demand electric water heater (often erroneously called a boiler, though they do not produce steam). I checked out a few manufacturers and i like the Seisco. They take up no floor space and require no exhausting. In case you're wondering, no, an electric domestic hot water heater probably couldn't keep up with your needs unless you got a real big 'un bec recovery is slow.
Electric is often considered more expensive heat, but i did the conversion for BTU's produced multiplied by efficiency and factored in NG v. KW costs for my area. I also considered that electricity costs regulated by a public service commission are not as volatile/seasonal as gas costs, esp these days. Electrical heat is by nature almost 100% efficient, while gas heat exhausts a certain percentage out the chimney. Gas efficiency is reduced with frequent starts. Modulating/condensing gas heaters are a lot more tricky and spendy than electric ones.
I just ordered a Seisco through my local plumbing supply gurus to replace a gas-fired Rinnai that was installed improperly by a "professional" on a friend's house. I have three zones to control, so total install will run about $1600 in parts, but yours would be much cheaper with only one circulator, etc. Of course, this does not include PEX tubing in the slab, manifolds, etc. The good thing about this is that a careful person can do the job herself with only a crimper as a special tool, which can be rented if you don't wish to buy. (It's about $150 for glorified pliers.)
More than you ever wanted to know, eh? <G>
Printed out and filed in the "make up your mind" folder.Thanks,C.
I envy you the size of your shop. Even with this much room, you may find it useful at times to have some of the machinery on mobile bases.
I have heated my 20 x 24 shop with natural gas. The 30,000 btu heater design is intended for this kind of service and does not expose the flame to any inside air, due to combustibility of dust and/or solvent fumes. A comfortable working temperature of about 55F was easily maintained through this last Canadian winter at a very reasonable cost.
Good luck with the project
C.
Have you considered open sloped roof trusses; say 11 feet to the bottom of the trusses; gives you a very spacious feeling and you could have a small mezzanine at one end for storage; also the trusses are useful for hanging things.
Windows placed high......................
Is this for security??????????? Regular height windows at the bench and assembly areas will give even more openess.
What surroundings will you have????? other buildings, busy streets, view of the mountains??
I am leaning more and more towards the open trusses, I want the building to look low from the outside, I could go a couple of feet into the ground, I will be building on a slope.When I say high windows I mean the bottom of the windows at 5' to have a maximum of wall space and windows all around.
I am in themiddle of the woods, I will cut 4 big white oaks for the floor, more if I decide to go with post and beam.Thanks for your input.C.
Hi, You might consider using a wood stove either with or without the radient floor heat. I have a cabinet shop that's 40' x 50'.... 11' to the bottom of the trusses.... 16' to the ridge , and insulated. I can keep this space very warm in the middle of winter,although here in Brookings, OR. the temp doesn't get below 30 degrees F. Besides converting scrap to heat , it also has the added benefit of being a natural dehumidifier, which here in Oregon, is a real plus. Figure plenty of elecrical outlets and in places you might not think you need them........ and then double it. I'm not kidding. It's better to have too many than not enough. Maybe an overhead door ? Good Luck, colebearanimals
The drawback of wood heat is that, should you have to run over to a supplier or go off to an urgent request from a client, you could end up leaving a wood fire unattended. Not prudent in my books. Eric
been there and done that.
I've been heating my home with wood for years. A properly maintained woodstove and a clean chimney pose no threat whatsoever should you leave them unattended.
Same here,
I heat my current shop with a wood stove and I leave it on at night.
In my future shop I am leaning towards one of those outdoors burners though, for insurance purpose first and with that I will be able to have a radiant heat.C.
A neighbor of mine installed an exterior burner/furnace last year with radiant heat and he loves it. The investment wasn't small but he seems satisfied with it - he can put in a 2 or 3 day load and forget about it. For a stand alone shop I'd actually go for gas heat - something with a thermostat so the place can stay at 55 or so when unattended for long periods. I have major condensation issues when I heat up the shop from nothing.
I understand one can use a thermostat with the outdoor burner, you just have to make sure you don't run out of wood.C.
Edited 11/5/2006 7:00 am ET by citrouille
I second the 12' ceilings. I thought that i only wanted 10' on my shop but went with 12' and am glad i did. Never have to think about swinging the boards around the shop. Below are links to posts of my new shop which might help you out. I also went with the Seisco boiler for radiant.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=24307.1
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=7043.1
Aaron
I wish i had searched here for info instead of only on Breaktime, but it's very reassuring to hear of your good experience with the Seisco. I realize on reading your post that i compared propane, not NG, with electricity costs...my bad. NG should be quite a bit cheaper, where available.
Here are a few more items for your list....
1 A sink with hot & cold water, useful for all sorts of clean-up
2 A bathroom. If the sink is in the shop, all you need is a ceramic throne. (do not use old sandpaper for toilet paper... it discourages shop assistants)
3 OVERHEAD electric reels. It sure beats tripping over extension cords. Also, your neighbors can't borrow them too easily.
4 A small refrigerator to keep your drinks (your choise) cold.
5 A small dust-free cabinet for holding your coffee maker and a few coffee cups.
SawdustSteve
What do you mean "no old sand paper" ? C.
I think he means keep fresh sandpaper close to the toilet. Worn out sandpaper in the john irritates the workers. I wonder if he favors the heavier grits for efficiency or the finer grits for that smooth as a babys bottom finish?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
lol.........you're disgusting.
Jeff
I'm not any kind of expert, but i just did a 1200 sf basement shop with a walk out. still not sure if i made the right decision to go in teh basement instead of a seperate outbuilding.
here are some of the things i did that have worked out well and some things i wish i had done diffently. most of these are things i read about in some magazine or book or saw in somebody elses shop. I hope it is of some use to somebody.
wish i had ceilings higher than 10'. after ducting and power and suspended DC piping it feels a little low.
i roughed in DC piping and electric under slab for table saw so there are no hanging wires or pipes to enterfere with feeding stock.
i put a single 220v and duplex 110v outlets every 4' on perimeter walls. there is always an outlet close enough to plug something in to.
I put ceiling mounted cord reels and hose reels right above the bench, asembly/cut table, and over an open floor area that i use for assembling large pieces.
wish i would have done some manner of raised flooring, concrete is hard on the feet and bladed tools.
all wiring is 10ga, all outlets are rated 15 amp for 110 and 20 amp for 220. I have a full 200 amp service for just the shop.
I put florescent lighting on 2 circuits with every other light on the opposite circuit so i can turn on half of the lights when there is ample natural lighting and only need to turn on the other half when required.
I wish i would have built some manner of shelter outside the main shop for the dust collector instead of having it in the main shop space. a cyclone that drops off the chips and large dust and then blows the fine dust into the outside air without filters would have been great.
I insulated the crap out of the framed exterior walls and furred out the concrete walls and insulated the crap out of those as well. I used dry blown fiberglass insulation, it gives like an R-38 in a 6 in wall. I have insulation for sound between the basement and main floor, but if it was a stand alone shop I would have done R-50 in the ceiling.
leave some high wall space between your windows for wall cabinets that go all the way to the ceiling, the amount of storage you can get in tall cabinets with a high ceiling is amazing. I have a whole 25' wall that has wall cabinets all the way to the 10' ceiling. I still haven't run out of storage space. and since they are high i can put machines or tools below them.
P_E_G_B_O_A_R_D...the heavy duty kind with 1/4" holes and white melamine coating. it give you lots of options for hanging tools and fixtures. I build custom fit racks and cabinets to hang on the peg board for tools, and i hang jigs and templates on hooks close to whatever machine they are used with. the white surface also serves to reflect the light and makes the shop look brighter.
keep all outlets at least 50" off of the floor so when you lean scraps of sheetgoods against the wall you can still get to the outlets.
I used a PTAC unit for supplemental heat and AC since my shop is in the basement and i can indirectly take advantage of the adjacent space being heated and cooled by the house system, but if it was stand alone I would have done radiant heat in the slab (keep in mind a raised floor will cause you to have to more than double the requirements of the radiant heat system) the radiant can be had for very comparable cost to a conventional forced air system to address heating demends only, but keep in mind cooling demends will have to be addressed in some other manner which drives the total system cost of radiant heat way up.
I put the compressor, and metal working equipment such as tormek, grinders, metal vise, etc. in a seperate room to eliminate the possibility of an errant spark finding a pile of sawdust under a machine somewhere.
I installed a heavy vinyl curtain on a track in my garage to make 1 stall into a finishing booth. I put a large fan with filters in the open man-door and draw make-up air over the top of the curtain from the adjacent stall. I wish i had a dedicated finishing room or a better solution.
I wired house doorbell into low voltage light and buzzer that flashes and makes a hell of a racket when someone is a the door.
I have a patio outside my shop door. on nice days I set up a large fan blowing towards the woods behind my house and i will sand or do hand work outside. It makes for a nice change of pace and the fan blows the dust away from you much more effectively than even my festool RA sander and vac can capture it.
i set up Vertical storage for sheetgoods and rough stock and it's great, but i'm limited to 10' by my ceilings. i have to store everything longer horizontally on wall standards.
I hope you are able to use some of this to your advantage, best of luck with your project...
CSCWEM makes a lot of very good and valid points - I would add only 2.
1. Use a light or white paint on walls, ceilings and cabinets - you can never have too much light in a shop and a well lighted shop is a safer shop.
2. Pay a few extra bucks and get full spectrum (daylight) lamps for all of your fluorescent fixtures. This will give you much better color rendition in woods, make it easier to read instructions, rules, etc., and it's healthier for you. I have the daylight lamps and find I can work at night and fool my body into thinking it's not quite as late as I know it is. (Although I do wind up having to tip-toe into the bedroom once in a while)
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 6/1/2006 3:49 pm by Rennie
Edited 6/1/2006 3:55 pm by Rennie
Come on ! Where is the saw dust ?
Nobody can have a shop that clean ! You must have tweaked the pictures with Photoshop !
Thanks for the input though.C.
citrouille, “Come on ! Where is the saw dust?Nobody can have a shop that clean ! You must have tweaked the pictures with Photoshop!”
Wellllllll…..OK. These were taken a few years ago, and I have added and changed out some equipment, and added a couple of hundred board feet of wood - but - it actually does look nearly this good about 3 or 4 times per year. I hate working in clutter (read ‘anal’) so I try very hard to do a complete cleaning after each major project. I open all the doors and give my compressor and shop vac a good workout.
It has not looked this good in a long time, but it’s been close ;o)
Note how good those light fixtures look!!Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Again, I printed it out and filed,
Very useful information, I already avoided making quite a few mistakes.Thanks,C.
C. I have looked at most of the same for my new digs in East TN. I am stuck with 7'10" for height and 24' x 48' with two garage and a 3-0 door at one end. I picked up 4 anderson #200 style swing out awning units 17H x 33L for the southeast 48' wall to be mounted bottom sill @ 6'4" in the shop but 9'+ outside as it slopes. The awning style lets you ventilate when it rains, unles it's a big blow from "down east"
I need NG to cook and the gas co will run 300' of pipe free with 2 appliances (one must be year round). I figured an on demand unit for the shop ,the kitchen stove and the big Webber grill on the rear deck. They said it's been their experience that due to our hard water I would violate the warrantee, perhaps even if the dealer descaled it twice a year, each an expensive call. So I guess I get a 30 gal. tank? Check the fine print and check your water.
12' in height or a little more would better for noise/ventilation/ dust eaters and to spread the lights over the shop.
Heat and A/C will probably be a small split unit heat pump as our electric is really low cost(only 25 to 30% of my NY. bill). You must insulate the socks off your shop due to the winters.
Best of luck, I know the feeling. each decision creates four more questions. BTW I just added the drain leg for the air system to MY list. Pat
Power do 200 if you can and never worry again or 100amps and plan carefully.
Hey Citrouille,
A lot of good suggestions here, some of the ones that I second are:
A restroom next to the shop.
A large sink in the shop.
12' ceilings, at least.
I prefer overhead ducting, for ease of access/modification.
Cyclone DC, ducted outside.
I have a steel coil door for loading (I hate articulated overhead garage doors)
I use electrical radient heat, but wish I had space for a wood stove.
High level clerestory transom windows for ventilation.
For electrical conduit, I highly recommend Wiremold 3000 raceway. You can easily add boxes anywhere you discover later that you need them.
http://www.wiremold.com/shared_content/pdf/ed528.pdf
My doorbell is an old gymnasium buzzer. Even with the machines running, you WILL hear it.
Tom
C,
I would think about putting the rigid insulation under the slab (with a vapor barrier on top of the rigid). This will certainly help if you plan on a radiant floor heating system. If you wanted to use the space between the wood floor and the slab for dust collection duct runs try raising the wood floor a full 8" off the top of slab. This would also give you space to run conduit to floor boxes and its easier to get to if a duct clogs than ripping out concrete.
Another thought I had... though used more in commercial construction. If you're up in the northeast you should consider using 2" - 2 1/2" rigid insulation outboard of the stud bays in the walls. Since the typical wall has batt insulation between the studs and the vapor barrier is located on the warm side right behind the wall finish material any penetrations by electrical boxes, plumbing, nails, screws etc will puncture the barrier and make it far less effective. Additionally all the studs interrupt the insulation giving you a lot less energy efficiency than you think you're getting. Putting the insulation (with the vapor barrier right behind it) outboard of the studs gives you the entire stud cavity to do with as you please and it gives you a continuous layer of insulation all around the building.
Jeff
Jeff,I will definitely use insolation on top of the slab, the floor will be 6/4 red oak harvested from the site. I will have "trap doors" were the ducts are for easy access.
I am pretty much set on structural panels with 6" foam inside.
Thanks for the input,C.
C
My shop is 36' X 45'. I had 10 foot ceilings in old shop, and went for 12 foot ceiling height in new shop, and I'm very glad. What a difference walking around with long boards. Also, the extra 2 feet will be negligible for heat simply by putting in a couple of fans to circulate the heat. If you use radiant heat in the slab, no worries again, as the heat comes up from the bottom, anyway.
Consider at least one very tall door, also. I've got an insulated 10' x 10' shop door for bringing large tools like, uh,.....monster bandsaws and 9' long aircraft carrier jointers, etc...... A helluva lot easier than squeezing them sideways through a 36" door.
Jeff
Jeff,I have 8 1/2' ceilings in my present shop, for the kind of work I do, I never had any problems (I mostly buy 8' lumber) I was thinking to do 10' in the new shop, I need some extra "nudge" towards the 12'.C.
Edited 9/27/2006 7:46 pm ET by citrouille
Make it pretty.
I think there are several practical advantages to building a really nice looking shop inside and out. It could increase your property values, which might make a difference to your heirs. People like being in nice looking places and seem to prefer nice looking people as well! Also, inviting in customers, woodworking groups, taking pictures or having magazines photo-journalists in can help. You may have the opportunity to make videos. Video technology is advancing very quickly. One thing with HD video is tha the ugly, filthy backgrounds will be clearly evident. This will undoubtedly be a problem for TV shows where the backdrops and props have been pretty poor in some cases.
So I'd very seriously consider a timber frame or wooden weatherboard building or stone or something spectacular. Inside, I'd make those windows go down to 2 or 3 feet off the floor. Windows up so high will give the space a factory look, that I personally would find very uninviting. Lighting and lots of it are very important. And I agree with what's already written here. But I'd go a step further: I'd seriously consider a trip to your local mall and look at the lighting in stores there. They use track fixtures and combinations of fluorescent and halogens (which can cause problems for photography). Make sure those lights are on different zones. In a recent article, I recommended the use of photographic "gel' materials (looks like tracing paper) to diffuse or tint shop lights. It also keeps the bulbs from getting dusty. Dust unintentionally reduces the light and tints it as well. So consider that.
I would say pegboard should be out. Beautiful shop made cabinetry should be substituted instead.
I know you'll filter all this through your own business and personal goals. I just want to put this bug in your ear about this issue. My shop limits my ability to take on students, do videos, host special interest groups including children or customers and other stuff that I never dreamed I'd fall into when I started. I was only thinking about woodworking. My shop's bare cinderblock walls and flickering $10 shop lights seemed fine then.
Adam
Adam,I intend to build my shop as beautiful as my budget will allow, after all I spend the biggest part of my waken time in there !
As far as light are concerned, I don't intend to nickle and dime my self with it ... I am pushing sixty and my eyes are not what they were.
I have beautiful Italian sliding windows already, but I don't think I will sacrifice wall space by putting them low, I have about 50' of windows 4' high.C.
Sounds great. Please post pictures.For anyone else reading in, I've been dissatisfied by the standard shop lights and lighting scheme. So I've been experimenting with different things.
I know lighting can be insanely expensive, but I'm not sure it needs to be. One might be able to make wooden tracks for halogens or fab up some aluminum extrusions (could be kinda artsy). I used compact fluorescent bulbs in clamp light fixtures and covered them with cinegel. Now they don't shed tons of light- you probably couldn't justify an entire shop full of them, but for task lighting they could work- in fact they are ideal for that. The CF bulbs are low wattage and run cool. They aren't that fragile, but I don't knock mine around much.One sheet of cinegel covered 6 or 7 lights. So I think I ended up paying less than $10 for each light including the clamp fixture, gel, binder clips to hold the gel on and a daylight CF bulb. The gels really help. With the gel in place the light won't blind you if you look at it....just in case anyone is interestedAdam
One more thing.........For your base shop cabinets, drawers only. Much handier than stooping down .
colebearanimals
Colebear -
That drawers advice applies to house cabinets as well. I'm 61 and am working with a customer to do a bunch of cabinet work in their home. They're in their mid-50's and we completely agree that drawers in the base cabinets are the way to go when you reach an age where your knees and back are going, going,..................gone. - lol
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