I am in the market for a table saw upgrade. My budget is about 700 – 900. I have a small shop and mobility and small footprint are a must. After spending more research time than was probably warranted, I am still confused. Overall, is Delta or Jet a better long-term saw? Does anyone have experience with the new Jet “supersaw” that is now available. It has a small footprint, a nice fence, dust collection etc. However, it is new. Do those of you who got a 30″ capacity now wish for 52″? Is Powermatic overpriced?
Any help is appreciated. I feel sort of lost. Each store disses other brands. Do you really need cast iron wings for vibration? Are there any good reviews available?
Thanks,
Fred
Edited 10/13/2002 10:09:31 AM ET by Derry
Replies
Fred,
If you're working with a $700-$900 budget and want to purchase a new cabinet saw, the Delta, Jet and Powermatic are out of range. As far as quality, Delta and Jet are on par (I know that some will argue that point, but check FWW and other reviews. Differences of opinion so prevalent in this forum tend to be based on emotion rather than fact.) Not sure on the other contractor's saws, but I know there were quite a few problems with Powermatic's 64A.
Don't think you'll find anybody who'll claim the Powermatic cabinet saw is overpriced. Yes, it's expensive, but it's a great machine.
The Jet Supersaw is, in my opinion, unproved, overpriced, and underpowered. I think you'd be better off looking for a used machine. In your price range you should be able to find a good used Delta ($500-$600), and - if needed - upgrade the fence as well. You'd be spending half the price of a new one, and probably have a better machine.
Jeff
Hi,
I have a 10", left tilt, Jet 3HP. This is my second one, the first was a right tilt. It has lots of cast iron table and weighs 400 pounds. I like it, but $1,400. It also has a magnetic switch, wood extension table and a very wide fence rail system.
My Neighbor just got a 10", left tilt, Grizzly 3HP. It also has lots of cast iron and is very heavy. It was only $700-$900. It came with a magnetic switch and a fence like the one on my Jet. One thing I don't like is the fact that the fence rail system is a lot shorter than mine; you can only rip about 25-30".
I would consider this one, lots of saw for the money.
Dario
Edited 10/13/2002 11:02:14 AM ET by Dario
Edited 10/13/2002 11:06:27 AM ET by Dario
Dittos on the Grizzly. If you want a new saw, not only is it in your price range, it also happens to be a fantastic machine. As Dario mentions, 30" fence is standard, but 50" is available.
Jeff
Dario, if your neighbor wants to increase the width of his rip capacity without buying the longer rails he can up to about 38". I never rip to the left so I moved the rails over to the right as much as possible.Grizzly supplies the bit and tap with the saw for the bolts supplied. I added extensions and legs to the right of the saw.52" rails are available at extra cost from Grizzly
Just a suggestion, but in my opinion every bet as good and better then the saws you listed, and if you live near the border with Canada, a much better price can be had. Bear in mind General owns it's taiwain factory and they keep the best parts and pass the rest along to others. So I've been told.
http://store.yahoo.com/toolsplus/g-i50-185lm1.html
Don
Thanks,
I know little about General. They are not generally available here in upstate NY. Do you know of any balanced reviews of these saws? It seems a lot of saw, and weight for the money.
Thanks,
Derry
Derry,
Try this site:
http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/woodchat.htm
It's a Canadian woodworking site and being Canadian, this saw is very popular. Since you are in upstate New York, a quick trip will save you at least another 20% on the saw. They love the American dollar. I recently bought a General 650, and the dealer will deliver it to the states for me (unfortunately, I don't have it yet as I'm waiting on a closing to get my new shop), but I am also looking at some General International machines and the dealer will take care of the paperwork on these machines also along with the tariffs on the internationals which comes in at about 3 to 4%.
I did a lot of research before purchasing, and IMO the 650 is a better saw then the US counterparts including the PM, and the International machines are also every bit as good or better then their counterparts.
Don
You live in NY. Go to woodweb.com machinery exchange and look for a used machine like a unisaw. There are a lot of postings from the north eastern states. Also you can post a WTB (want to buy) ad and find what you need. Anyone that buys a new cabinet saw is nuts with all the good used machines sitting around. Like grandad said " they don't make them like they used to" and think of all the extra cash you save to purchase lumber. In a lifetime of woodworking you will spend more for lumber than tools. I currently own five Unisaws from '41 to '97 and a '85 PM66. The PM66 has not been used in two years, prefer the Unisaw. The PM66 is heavier not better.
Dave Koury
I've had 4 tablesaws over a 35 year period, an 8" and 10" Craftsman a 10" Delta contractor saw and a Delta Unisaw. The Craftsman saws were bought used and gave me good service. The Delta contractor saw had problems with keeping the blade lined up, Delta bought the saw back from me and I bought the Unisaw with a 52" table for $2200. delivered with mobile base. I had looked for a used Unisaw in the Houston TX area for a couple of years to no avail during this time I found one Unisaw that was used in a commercial shop 12 years old for $1100. I haven't regretted my purchase I am a hobbiest woodworker and enjoy what I consider the best saw on the market. I recently needed 56 1/8" X 1" X 96"Oak strips. I was able to do this on my saw because of the fence and the 3 HP motor. I feel good about the Delta company they stood behind their product and the contractor saw was over 2 years when they bought it back.
God Bless and watch your fingers
les
Delta's a better then average smallhome shop saw, but the best available? You don't believe that do you?
Don
Don I can't find anything wrong with it and like I said in my response I don't see anybody selling their Unisaw. Mostly what I've seen on the market used is $100. Craftsman.
The saw has did everything I've tried to do with it and did it well. I don't think you can get better than that. I will admit I am a little partial to Delta, I have five of their tools. My bandsaw and shaper are Sears and I will replace them with Delta someday probably.
No I don't work for Delta I own a printing company.
Good Luck
les
Les,
I can find you plenty of unisaws for sale. There are many used machinery places here on the web that have plenty to choose from. If Delta sold as many saws as Craftsman, you'd see as many Deltas for sale without having to look to far. Heck, if unisaws were the average beginners saw you'd see a lot more of them for sale. Let's keep things in perspective.
It's great that the saw serves your needs, and it's not a bad saw, but the best available? If you want to believe that it's your choice. I don't think you'll find many that will agree with you though. It might be better said, the best saw available for what I'm willing to spend on a saw. I think you'll find a lot more agreeing with you then.
Don
Change the pulleys on your old Craftsman tools. If you go to a mechanical house that specializes in that sort of stuff (bearing & transmission is generally part of the name) they have steel pulleys that will replace the pot metal ones that sears puts on their tools. the white metal pulleys have no tooth and the belt slips. 25 bucks for a pair of pulleys (they generally are different sizes) gets you renewed faith in that occasional tool.
Delta doesn't put those on their tools and that is a noticable difference.
If you really want to soup it up find a 2 hp 230 volt motor and put that on the 100 dollar Craftsman.
With the money you save you can buy more clamps.
Edited 10/17/2002 3:09:30 PM ET by Booch
les,
It's good that you have found the Delta Unisaw to satisfy your needs. But I don't think that Delta did anything remarkable about "buying your saw back from you." They only did so because you paid top dollar for a Unisaw. Would they have "bought it back" just because you were unhappy with it, or even if it didn't work properly? I don't think that they would.
Rich
Rich believe me Delta gave me my money back no strings attached. It was my idea to buy the Unisaw. The $2200. included Mobile base $185., 52" table , Unifence, $35. deliverly charge $170. sales tax for Texas and City of Houston. I think the saw was only $1700. it all adds up. Anyway its a great saw and I enjoy it veryn much.
Good Luck to You
les
Les,
Apologies. Then Delta indeed did right by you. And in doing so, they obtained you as a loyal customer. Good business practice. Often forgoten in today's world.
Rich
Derry,
I ran across this saw by Jet just this weekend.
http://www.jettools.com/JETWood/Tools/JWCS-10A-PF.html
I have been keeping a eye out for something for my BIL and saw this in the most recent flier from woodwokrers warehouse. I think its a better deal than the Jet supersaw. Its the same HP but has all the same features as a full sized cabinat saw. All for $999. Give it a look.
as for the fence size advice....I bought a PM66 last year and struggled with 30" vs 52" because of limited space. The 52" was the same money and I figured if it was too big I could cut it down. I am so glad I got the 52". It fit with a shoe horn but since I've goy used to it i'm glad I got the bigger fence.
Grizzly, from what I hear has done some good things about quality, but I think it will be some time before those of us who remember how bad it was will forget. The best advice I can offer is go and see it before you buy it. If you can't see it first, forget it. There's also something to be said for having a dealer to work with, although they are less and less help as time goes on. I have bought Grizzly (my first table saw 15 years ago and still running at my BIL's. Very touchy feely/tweek this and that machine.), Delta (everything has been a problem. especially bad castings), Jet(no problems yet), Powermatic (stupid stuff done wrong). There is no one perfect manufacturer in the group.
Anyway enough rabbling.
Good Luck!
TDF
TDF,
Thanks for the info. I did look at the same add, and looked at the saw. I was almost sold, but look at the comments in amazon.com below the manufacturer's info. There seem to be serious problems with the unit if you believe these reviewers. Let me know what you think.
Derry
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/228366/102-3568315-4880912
Derry,
I had the 2 hp. Jet that preceded the 1.75 hp. they offer now. Really wasn't too heavy, and was certainly underpowered. (Motor over-rated?) If you're working with sheet stock you really want that 50" fence.
By the way, what ever happened to that $700 - $900 budget???? Guys are writing about $2,000+ machines.
Jeff
Derry,
Gotta throw my two cents in here because, like yourself, I'm struggling with the cost, footprint, functionality and value issues of a new TS. I think I have looked at everything several times, have considered all the options and read all the threads in here over the past six months..at least I think I have.
Bottom line, either a new Grizzly or a used Delta from a dealer. Saturday i found a dealer who had just received a used Delta that had a Bies for $675. I would trust them to check it out, set it up and be there to answer my questions...third generation business. Grizzly appears to have great customer service and be there also. Would I do a used General, Powermatic or Jet form the same dealer? absolutely....I have been very impressed (read: scared) with the comments on here relative to what can go wrong, and tools needed for accurate setup. I wanna be able to talk to someone who has the hands on experience with this equipment...and that is this dealer.
Putting all the TS talk aside, the other question roaming around my head is a comment I heard many years ago. That is, in England, they tend to use band saws and forget the table saws. Given my limited space issues I'm wondering it that would not suit my needs better. There again though, set up a tuning appear to be a chore..
I agree, BG, with the comment that the bandsaw may offer more functionality than the table saw. If I had it to do all over again I think I'd have spent more money on a bigger bandsaw and less on the table saw upgrade. Given a choice of having only one, I'd opt for the bandsaw. Very difficult to cut round things on a table saw (safely anyway! -grin-)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Derry,
I read the Amazon reviews and it sounds like a mixed bag. I would still take a look at it if woodworkers warehouse has one. Maybe the Grizzley is a good choice, but like I said you should look at it before you have a truck in your driveway dropping it off.
TDF
Pretty tough to rip long boards on a bandsaw. You gotta pick your type of work if you are going to use only one tool.
Not trying to pick a fight, Booch, but .... at least it *can* be done. I'd feel safer ripping a long board on a bandsaw than I would cutting a curve on a table saw (grin)
But you're right, of course. One has to take into consideration what one plans doing the most and buy accordingly.Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Booch,
'True' about the difficulty with ripping long boards on a band saw. But i have a little portable saw, with 6" in front the blade, not too much fun trying to keep that tight to the fense and on the same plane as the saw. With a cabinet saw you have about 13 " to work with in front of the blade...not a whole lot better. Clearly it is safer to use a set-up table infront of either saw to support the wood....and if your gonna do that, is a band saw more difficult? I'm asking not preaching..
Hey My father in law made a bar with thick wide sugar maple boards. he joined them by running the skill saw down the mated faces before he glued it.
He always had a towel over the bar and I was gentleman enough not to look.
BG,
Setting up and tuning a table saw can take a full day. (I've always had missing parts or holes drilled in the wrong places, etc. to deal with.) Setting up a band saw on the other hand shouldn't take more than an hour. There's really a lot less to it, and they certainly are a lot quieter. No kick back to worry about so they're a lot safer too.
I've read a quite a times where authors say if they had to choose one or the other, they'd take a band saw. Not sure I'd go that far - pretty difficult to cut a dado on the band saw.
Jeff
Jeff:
> ...No kick back to worry about so they're a lot safer too.
Don't count on it. If anyone in this forum is a candidate for a Darwin award, it' probably me. You *can* get a kickback, or perhaps better described as a kick "down" if you do stupid things. Like trying to cut a round, green log without a proper approach to the task.
One $100+ carbide blade later, I'm a lot wiser. But, you're right on the safety issue; all it did was catch the log and torque it around the blade. Blade didn't break but it put one helluva kink in it.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Jeff,
"pretty difficult to cut a dado on the band saw"
Your absolutely correct, there's no question if we had our druthers, we would have two table saws...one always set up for dados...or a RAS. Didn't I read on here that if you buy the safer saws (Felder, etc.), with the sliding table, they don't accept dado blades? I'm so used to using my router for dadoing..as well as rabbits...with a nice clean bottom too.
For my level of involvement, a contractors saw should be adequate. However, I'd never buy one used and a new one takes you to the used Unisaw price. On the band saw side, I have a lot to investigate yet. Something with cast iron wheels maybe...how much tinkering is needed as you move from re-sawing to other functions...
BG,
To set up for resawing you simply change blades and put on the fence. (Adjusted for blade drift.) To go back to other work, remove fence and change blades. !0 minutes time either way.
Like any other machine, once you've used the bandsaw for a while, its set-up and adjustment become second nature and are done quickly.
Jeff
You might want to throw the Dewalt into the mix, at around $900. If not that, Amazon has a Delta 431K or something that comes w/ a tenoning jig for $850. I picked the DeWalt for the small footpring and mobility - I got it at the semi-annual 1-day Woodcraft 10% sale for about $900 w/ mobile base and outfeed table (30" rails, no cat-iron wings). The next sale s/b in February or so.
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