Hi, folks.
I have acquired some very attractive maple raw veneer with a combination of quilted and bird’s eye figure. I want to use it on a pair of loudspeaker cabinets that I’m building. I’ve never tackled veneering before and have two questions:
First, the veneer is not particularly flat – I don’t know whether this is usual or whether it might have got damp at some time. I’m sure it would flatten under vacuum, but I don’t have a vacuum press. How do you experienced folk recommend I bond this veneer to the MDF substrate (glue and method)? The faces of the speakers are typically 14″ x 42″.
Second, I want to do everything I reasonably can to bring out the depth in the figure. I will probably use an aniline dye to warm up the natural colour slightly. Any tips would be much appreciated, including the choice of finish. Thanks,
Martyn
Replies
Martyn, if you don't have a vacuum press you'll need to figure out how to clamp using Cauls and battens(these help spread the load so fewer clamps are needed)
Remember, the clamping pressure deminishes as you go away from the point of contact.
I would not use CONTACT cement, thats stuff for laminate. Some people have sucess ironing on the veneer by gluing veneer and substrate letting dry then applying by using an iron to reactivate the glue. This is tricky but it can be done.
Far and away the best method to glue up is with vacuum or clamp pressure using a urea resin glue, some like epoxy. With what you have to glue I would use a white urea glue. Be careful not to put too much glue down, it will bleed thru.
Maybe this will help you some.
you must wet both sides of the veneer with hot water, then press without any glue first, otherwise you will have air pockets when you try to glueup
razor,
Not necessarily do you need to flatten veneer before using. It depends on the specie and how unruly it is. If you can mash it flat with your hand without it cracking, you can glue up without bubbles. I've had quilted Bubinga that was all lumpy and wavy, taped it up and glued perfectly flat with ease. Now crotch Mahogany I would almost always flatten first. Veneer Flattening Formula I use from Darryl@vacuum pressing systems2 parts white or yellow glue
3 parts water
1 part glycerin
1 part denatured alcoholSome others add flour to this recipe, I don't this one works very goodFurniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
hi
yes you are right it does depend,i should have said this. however, i think it is good practice for beginners.
bye for know
you must wet both sides of the veneer with hot water.. I do NOT do much Veneering but take some you can spare.. Nice flat something..
Sort of a Ironing board... Get out the 'little ladies' steam iron when she is not lookin'.. Steam away on both sides.. When "good en' HOT and wet" put another flat object that will not stain it on top and weight it down.. Helps but not perfect...
Constantines sells some water/glycerine products which flatten and soften veneers. They also sell a nice two part plastic resin glue which does a terrific job in holding the veneer in place.As a beginner, I used 3/4 inch plywood sandwiches over the veneer and substate, topped with concrete blocks. The blocks are cheap, the plywood is scrap, and this Fred Flintstone version of a veneer press does and OK job.
Aniline dye is a fantastic way to pop the figure in Maple, particularly with quilted Maple. I've got a favorite dye recipe which I call an "Amber" dye. It's equal parts Yellow, Brown and Orange dye (Sherwin Williams Dye Concentrate) reduced heavily. Exactly how much to reduce and with what medium depends on the brand of dye of course. But, I've used that dye formula on curly Maple with spectacular results.
For a finish I would recommend using a full gloss finish. Primarily because the flatting agent used to dull the sheen in finishes sits between the wood surface and your eye and thus acts to obscure the wood ever so slightly. With non-figured wood it's not really that big of a deal, in my opinion. But, with figured wood it does tend to obscure the figure... which after all is really a matter of how the light plays over the wood and how your eye perceives that.
Then if you don't want full gloss just rub it down to a lower sheen.
Thanks, Kevin. An amber colour was exactly what I had in mind - I'll go looking for Sherwin Williams. On the finish, I thought I'd stay away from polyurethane because it's all but impossible to avoid dust and other surface imperfections. Thought I'd try French Polish instead - any comments? Cheers,
Martyn
I just finished a subwoofer, veneered with curly Tropical Olive. Basically, I had the same problems as you: non-flat veneer and no vacuum press.
First, you need to flatten your veneer. There are commercial flattening solutions, but based on some internet research, I made my own from water, rubbing alcohol and glycerine (from the drugstore). Some recipes called for white glue as well, but I thought it might interfere with the final finish. Mist the veneer and clamp it between two plates, with a piece of brown kraft paper between each sheet. The paper absorbs the flattening solution, and needs to be changed every 12 hours until the veneer is dry. I clamped the veneer between two sheets of plate glass, with a bunch of books piled on top for weight.
Not having a veneer press (and no money to buy one), I used a method I ran across in a veneering book. I glued up a couple of double-thick mdf plates, about an inch wider on each side than one face of the sub. One plate goes underneath the sub (side to be veneered facing up). A thin coat of white glue (cheap and locally available)was applied, then the veneer, then a sheet of plastic (to prevent the top plate from adhering to the veneer when the glue squeezes through the pores), then the top plate. Pressure was applied to the center of the plate using the jack from my car, pressing on a 4x4 which was wedged against a beam in my garage. I added bar clamps all around the edges, just in case.
The sub turned out great. I ended up having a couple of small edge areas with adhesion problems, which were easily fixed with clear epoxy and a weight to clamp them down. Someone mentioned the iron-on method. I used this to veneer the feet for the sub, and it worked pretty well. Coat both the veneer and the substrate with at lease a couple of coats of white glue, let dry, and iron on. Some areas required re-ironing. Perhaps a thicker coat of glue would have been better. Someone (http://www.joewoodworker.com maybe?) sells glue specifically for ironing on veneer. The Joe Woodworker website also has a lot of info on veneering, even instructions on how to make your own vacuum press. Someday...
For a finish, I use straight gloss poly. I tested on a scrap, and with the Tropical Olive, didn't feel that anything else was neccessary. Maple would probably benefit from a dye to pop the grain. I used gloss, 'cause you can always rub gloss down to whatever sheen you want, but you can't go the other way.
Hope this helps, and good luck.
-mark
Thanks, Mark. Not sure I'm brave enough to wet the veneer - I'd be scared of it cracking at a later date. I've heard about the iron-on method too, but wonder whether it can really work with no significant pressure. I tried an experiment using my shop vac (which can pull around 1 psi) and a space bag - it worked remarkably well on flat veneer but less so on the wrinkled stuff. Looks like I need to do some more experimentation. Cheers,
Martyn
Martyn-Don't be scared - all the cool kids are doing it. Seriously, I would be more worried about cracking the veneer if I were to use it without flattening. As a matter of fact, I cut it to size before flattening, and ended up causing a couple small cracks while cutting. Luckily, they closed up during glue-up, and did not require further repair.If you're really apprehensive, and you have some extra veneer, you might consider taking an extra piece and trying some flattening solution. It is easy (and cheap) to make, and I think you'll be suprised how much it helps.One thing I forgot to mention with respect to using flattening solution is that you need to keep the veneer pressed flat until right before you use it - from what I've read, it will slowly return to it's unflattened state if you don't.-mark
My thanks to everyone who responded to my original question. Suppliers are a little different here in western Canada, but I have located a Sherwin Williams dealer in Vancouver for dyes, a local source of urea adhesive, and have found a fellow woodworker locally who has already imported some veneer plasticiser from the US and is willing to sell me some. I don't yet have a convenient source for budget vacuum presses, but maybe with the plasticiser I won't need one! Be that as it may, I clearly have some more experimentation to do. Maybe I'll post some pictures of the finished cabinets if I can produce a quality result. Thanks again,
Martyn
provided the speakers aren't huge, you can always use hide glue and hammer veneer techniques. Lee Valley is a source for the glue and the "hammer" needed, and back issues of FWW talk about how to do hammer veneering. I recently used this technique on curly maple veneer with good results.
Just remember to throw out the extra hide glue you prepared before it goes bad and stinks up your shop, and you can't figure out what died in it!Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
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